Cortex Torque Arm Racechrono Track Review

[Whiskey11]

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1821903&postcount=326

No disrespect to Terry but all of that post tells me nothing of the performance reasons why a 3 link is better than a TA. I liken it to Barbaros posts of "I like Torque Arms!" just in the reverse. While the slights made against those of us asking for more detailed responses are cute, the post contained very little substance to back up the claims of Horse and Buggy era invention and performance. I dont disagree with Terry's final points in that a 3 link represents a better option when you are free to change the geometry freely but I think he can do better than that. It felt a lot like the "trust me, I design suspension, buy my stuff" then it told me why I should or shouldnt. Hence my post asking for clarification.

On the same token Filip is ALSO a suspension engineer who started his own company too and built from the ground up a torque arm suspension for the S197. I have yet to hear why from him either but there is obviously something in that setup he prefers to a 3 link.

 

[barbaro]

No disrespect to Terry but all of that post tells me nothing of the performance reasons why a 3 link is better than a TA. I liken it to Barbaros posts of "I like Torque Arms!" just in the reverse. While the slights made against those of us asking for more detailed responses are cute, the post contained very little substance to back up the claims of Horse and Buggy era invention and performance. I dont disagree with Terry's final points in that a 3 link represents a better option when you are free to change the geometry freely but I think he can do better than that. It felt a lot like the "trust me, I design suspension, buy my stuff" then it told me why I should or shouldnt. Hence my post asking for clarification.

On the same token Filip is ALSO a suspension engineer who started his own company too and built from the ground up a torque arm suspension for the S197. I have yet to hear why from him either but there is obviously something in that setup he prefers to a 3 link.

All one can do if one is not a suspension engineer is to try describe the subjective feel of a torque arm watts link equipped car as compared to a traditional third link. There is less body roll, there is less vertical movement of the chassis. There is less nosedive. rear end grip improves dramatically. the ride itself improves as the suspension seems more compliant. Confidence is increased. These are subjective criteria. And the only way to evaluate what I am saying is to drive an equipped car back to back with the best OEM design and the difference will be clear. Also the torque arm has for me solved a shifting problem where I was getting locked out of gear. Theoretically anything is possible. Practically, the torque arm / watts link rear end is in my mind and the minds of many others vastly superior to the OEM three link design. I still agree to disagree with my superiors on this subject.

 

[sheizasosay]

There needs to be separation between "torque arm and watts link equipped car" and a "torque arm equipped car". That's where problems come in and has previously been pointed out, likely multiple times. Watts link with it's different or adjustable roll centers directly affect what you feel in roll, not to be confused with the capabilities/impact that the torque arm would make on a PHB car. When claims are made about the torque arm with more and more factors thrown into the equation(watts link or whatever grouped mods are discussed) you just wind up peeling the banana to get where we need to be going for answers to claims made.

I can expect A from a torque arm
I can expect B from a set of heim LCA's
I can expect C from a watts link
.....etc

It's too bad Filip won't address the questions on a public forum. My guess is that it would not benefit his sales.

Do I believe that a full Cortex-equipped car will handle amazing. Yep. Do I think that what he has done performance wise can't be replicated (or improved) with alternate parts to include an aftermarket UCA and a different adj watts link with a different set of LCA's? Nope.

Filip addressing this thread would eliminate a lot of untied ends for a lot of folks. Someone else can try emailing him. I'm not into bugging someone more than once to address their own product.

 

[2013DIBGT]

Agreed, I find it odd that Cortex or Griggs doesn't seem to be active on any of the forums that I have come across as it would seem in my mind to be a requirement in the age of the internet for promotion purposes if nothing else.

I spoke with Griggs over the phone about a month and a half ago and was able to get some info but my follow up email has still yet to be answered. Same story with Cortex; I received a short message that failed to answer any of the questions I asked.

I basically had money in hand ready to purchase a GR4SS kit from Griggs but if the lack of response is an indicator to the type of support I could expect then I'm going elsewhere.

I'm left with the impression that those guys have made their fortune already and don't care to promote their package anymore. Its a damn shame!

 

[Whiskey11]

There needs to be separation between "torque arm and watts link equipped car" and a "torque arm equipped car". That's where problems come in and has previously been pointed out, likely multiple times. Watts link with it's different or adjustable roll centers directly affect what you feel in roll, not to be confused with the capabilities/impact that the torque arm would make on a PHB car. When claims are made about the torque arm with more and more factors thrown into the equation(watts link or whatever grouped mods are discussed) you just wind up peeling the banana to get where we need to be going for answers to claims made.

I can expect A from a torque arm
I can expect B from a set of heim LCA's
I can expect C from a watts link
.....etc

It's too bad Filip won't address the questions on a public forum. My guess is that it would not benefit his sales.

Do I believe that a full Cortex-equipped car will handle amazing. Yep. Do I think that what he has done performance wise can't be replicated (or improved) with alternate parts to include an aftermarket UCA and a different adj watts link with a different set of LCA's? Nope.

Filip addressing this thread would eliminate a lot of untied ends for a lot of folks. Someone else can try emailing him. I'm not into bugging someone more than once to address their own product.

This. There are things he is claiming that a torque arm can't do (reduce body roll and solving a shifting problem to name two) that could be attributed to other things such as roll center height or just slowing your shifting down. I struggled last night after reading his post to understand how an object that does nothing to control the engine torque that causes missed shifts on these cars could suddenly cure missed shifts.

Agreed, I find it odd that Cortex or Griggs doesn't seem to be active on any of the forums that I have come across as it would seem in my mind to be a requirement in the age of the internet for promotion purposes if nothing else.

I spoke with Griggs over the phone about a month and a half ago and was able to get some info but my follow up email has still yet to be answered. Same story with Cortex; I received a short message that failed to answer any of the questions I asked.

I basically had money in hand ready to purchase a GR4SS kit from Griggs but if the lack of response is an indicator to the type of support I could expect then I'm going elsewhere.

I'm left with the impression that those guys have made their fortune already and don't care to promote their package anymore. Its a damn shame!

I know Filip has posted before on the Coral that Cortex Racing doesn't employ someone to peruse forums and that he is too active in the development, testing, and building process to do it himself. He, like Jim Fays of Fays2 Watts linkages, prefer that their reputation be spread by those who actually use their product. I don't know of Bruce Griggs feels the same way as I think they are truly living on their name at this point. One impression that I DID get was that Filip prefers the phone over email. Call and leave a message and you'll get a call back. I called after hours and he still picked up the phone!

In the mean time, ten days until I sign for the house and ten days until I order the Torque Arm. There will be some things that I will have to parse out of the experience, like the Torsen T2R that is going in at the same time but if the change is as life changing as has been suggested here then I should be able to do that pretty easily.

 

[Sky Render]

Please take lots of pictures of the install. I have yet to see a picture of an installed Cortex torque arm.

 

[Whiskey11]

Please take lots of pictures of the install. I have yet to see a picture of an installed Cortex torque arm.

I plan to!

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

No disrespect to Terry but all of that post tells me nothing of the performance reasons why a 3 link is better than a TA. I liken it to Barbaros posts of "I like Torque Arms!" just in the reverse. While the slights made against those of us asking for more detailed responses are cute, the post contained very little substance to back up the claims of Horse and Buggy era invention and performance. I dont disagree with Terry's final points in that a 3 link represents a better option when you are free to change the geometry freely but I think he can do better than that. It felt a lot like the "trust me, I design suspension, buy my stuff" then it told me why I should or shouldnt. Hence my post asking for clarification.

Hehehe... I did point out a lot of the drawbacks - namely braking induced wheel hop - but I just don't have a dog in this fight. I'd rather let those that design and build and use these TAs defend their pros and cons, explain the geometry changes in detail, and champion their cause (or not). You also forgot to mention that I did say these do have a place on many pony cars, and even S197s in some situations. I did neglect to point out that they work very well for S197s in drag racing, when tuned correctly. I'm not a drag racer and I'm not building cars for the two SCCA Solo classes that have their unusual rules restrictions, so let the TA experts chime in.

Thanks,

 

[Whiskey11]

Hehehe... I did point out a lot of the drawbacks - namely braking induced wheel hop - but I just don't have a dog in this fight. I'd rather let those that design and build and use these TAs defend their pros and cons, explain the geometry changes in detail, and champion their cause (or not). You also forgot to mention that I did say these do have a place on many pony cars, and even S197s in some situations. I did neglect to point out that they work very well for S197s in drag racing, when tuned correctly. I'm not a drag racer and I'm not building cars for the two SCCA Solo classes that have their unusual rules restrictions, so let the TA experts chime in.

Thanks,

I get what you are and have said and I am not asking you to champion them or otherwise, I was just curious on YOUR reasoning for preferring a 3 link over the TA. Your experience with these cars and with older cars has surely given you enough seat time to be able give us some performance impressions. Brake hop is a serious concern but was there anything else about the Mustangs you drove with the TA setup that you didnt like that the 3 link doesnt do?

 

[hunterwiley]

Another data point for consideration...

One of the fastest AI car/drivers is Chris Cobetto in our region - NASA MidAtlantic. Chris is a multi-national champion, and drives a fully prepared car out of the Performance Autosport garage. He was sponsored by Kenny Brown, and ran their stuff last year. This year he switched to Cortex racing, and started the year on their strut setup, with watts link/3 link in the rear. That was good enough to turn a 2.05 lap at VIR which is pretty damn fast in a 3600lb car with 375-ish rear wheel HP on 275 Toyo tires.... that was in February.

In April PAS installed the Cortex SLA on the front of the car. An absolutely beautiful setup that'll set a non-sponsored driver some 7K in the hole. The full JRI shock package too.

For last weekends race at VIR PAS moved to the rear, and installed the Cortex torque arm. I've considered adding this to my car, but getting wrecked at the track in May (and having to spend some 3-4k just to repair my car) put a dent in those plans.

Here's the blog from PAS on the changes made to the car, and the driver feedback. Realize that they are dealers for Cortex, so of course they're not going to say the torque arm sucks, but watch the video of this car on track. Especially compared to the car Chris is chasing, which is a Kenny Brown equipped car with standard 3link, panhard bar, and 300lb springs. I know those are the springs on that car because I loaned them to him.

Also note the black car was DQ'ed for running a hot tune on his car, so he was some 30-40hp over the PAS car.... Same tires, nearly equal weights, everything pretty much the same between the two cars.

I'll say it sure looks like the PAS torque arm equipped car can get off the corners faster....

http://www.performanceautosport.com/2013/07/25/round-5-heat-wave-at-vir/

On another note, my car is slowly getting rebuilt. Going to be black like the old fox.

 

[Whiskey11]

Another data point for consideration...

One of the fastest AI car/drivers is Chris Cobetto in our region - NASA MidAtlantic. Chris is a multi-national champion, and drives a fully prepared car out of the Performance Autosport garage. He was sponsored by Kenny Brown, and ran their stuff last year. This year he switched to Cortex racing, and started the year on their strut setup, with watts link/3 link in the rear. That was good enough to turn a 2.05 lap at VIR which is pretty damn fast in a 3600lb car with 375-ish rear wheel HP on 275 Toyo tires.... that was in February.

In April PAS installed the Cortex SLA on the front of the car. An absolutely beautiful setup that'll set a non-sponsored driver some 7K in the hole. The full JRI shock package too.

For last weekends race at VIR PAS moved to the rear, and installed the Cortex torque arm. I've considered adding this to my car, but getting wrecked at the track in May (and having to spend some 3-4k just to repair my car) put a dent in those plans.

Here's the blog from PAS on the changes made to the car, and the driver feedback. Realize that they are dealers for Cortex, so of course they're not going to say the torque arm sucks, but watch the video of this car on track. Especially compared to the car Chris is chasing, which is a Kenny Brown equipped car with standard 3link, panhard bar, and 300lb springs. I know those are the springs on that car because I loaned them to him.

Also note the black car was DQ'ed for running a hot tune on his car, so he was some 30-40hp over the PAS car.... Same tires, nearly equal weights, everything pretty much the same between the two cars.

I'll say it sure looks like the PAS torque arm equipped car can get off the corners faster....

http://www.performanceautosport.com/2013/07/25/round-5-heat-wave-at-vir/

On another note, my car is slowly getting rebuilt. Going to be black like the old fox.

Good read and I was sorry to hear about your car getting dinged up pretty bad but I'm glad she's back as she's a beauty!

 

[2013DIBGT]

Please take lots of pictures of the install. I have yet to see a picture of an installed Cortex torque arm.

I found a few on the web but: :worth:

Come on Barbaro snap some install pics


Originally Posted by Whiskey11
I know Filip has posted before on the Coral that Cortex Racing doesn't employ someone to peruse forums and that he is too active in the development, testing, and building process to do it himself

I hear you, but I'm not convinced anyone is that busy.


I look forward to your findings Whiskey

 

[Whiskey11]

I found a few on the web but: :worth:

Come on Barbaro snap some install pics


Originally Posted by Whiskey11
I know Filip has posted before on the Coral that Cortex Racing doesn't employ someone to peruse forums and that he is too active in the development, testing, and building process to do it himself

I hear you, but I'm not convinced anyone is that busy.


I look forward to your findings Whiskey

Given that his shop is like a 3-4 person operation, I AM convinced he is THAT busy. It's racing season and between his own car and the cars he sponsors I'm sure he is stupid busy, probably busy enough to barely ever be able to touch forums. He definitely didn't strike me as the "computer" type of person, not that he can't operate one but that he would rather be on the phone with someone describing it rather than emailing them.

Sounds like someone VERY familiar to these forums (Sam Strano) and I absolutely 100% prefer that method to the internets but because we can't all get on the same phone call at the same time all the time this medium works as a substitute to email mailing lists... I prefer it because the feedback and info is instant and unless we all happen to be on refreshing at the same time, conversations here that could take 10-15 minutes in person take days.

Trust me, I look forward to my own findings. Once the house is signed over there will be a scramble to get all the parts in before August 16th's Midwest Divisional Championship here in Lincoln, followed by a Test'n'Tune and a solo event the next weekend then the Evo Test'n'Tune at the Solo Nationals and finally my runs at Nationals.

Between the 16th of August and the 6th of September my car is going to see over 40 runs and hopefully the car will be dialed in for Nats but I have to get the Torque Arm and install it, rebuild the entire rear end (new gears, new bearings, new seals, new oil, Torsen T2R), rebuild the Fays2 Watts link with new rod ends (mine are finally lose enough to create noise), adjust Sam's front bar to full stiff and get replacement bushings for his rear bar and install it.

Lots to do and only two weeks to do it. I also have to deal with moving into the new house the weekend after signing... LOADS to do so I apologize if I can't get good detailed install process photos!

 

[Norm Peterson]

Here's the blog from PAS on the changes made to the car, and the driver feedback. Realize that they are dealers for Cortex, so of course they're not going to say the torque arm sucks, but watch the video of this car on track. Especially compared to the car Chris is chasing, which is a Kenny Brown equipped car with standard 3link, panhard bar, and 300lb springs. I know those are the springs on that car because I loaned them to him.

Also note the black car was DQ'ed for running a hot tune on his car, so he was some 30-40hp over the PAS car.... Same tires, nearly equal weights, everything pretty much the same between the two cars.

I'll say it sure looks like the PAS torque arm equipped car can get off the corners faster.... http://s15.photobucket.com/user/ed_hunter/media/IMG_0185_zpsa37a07b3.jpg.html

Certainly with less drama - the KB car got a bit squirrely quite a few times, which I wasn't picking up to be the case (or not as much) in Chris's car. Wonder how it looked from a third car behind both those guys.

Hot tune in the KB car makes sense, as Chris was gaining under braking but kept getting slowly walked away from.


What happened at around 13:30? Two cameras went MIA and it didn't sound or run the same.


Norm

 

[Whiskey11]

I ordered the TA today with a slight change. Filip was not comfortable using the stamped steel diff cover but pointed me towards the Boss 302 finned diff cover instead which does work. His fabrication guy was already modifying the endplate to fit better and I should have the arm next week early sometime!

Anyway, while I was on the phone with him I asked straight away the reasoning for the Torque Arm and he gave me two reasons:
1.) The short upper link causing instant center stability issues as well as the rapid change in pinion angle causing bearing wear on raced cars.

2.) This was his most important reason: Bite off the corner. I asked him about setting up a 3 link to do that and his comment was that in order to match the off the corner bite or a Torque Arm you would run into serious roll steer issues or pinion angle sweep issues. He did say that he still runs 3 links on a few of his cars which had ground up 3 link designs made for them but those modifications are extensive enough that it couldnt be done with an oem unibody, at least not easily.

Anyway, when it arrives expect a stupid long, detailed post as he has asked for a lot of pictures installed since they have never mounted it this way before. He is confident that it will be strong enough for my power level and use. I asked about brake hop and he reassured me that with the instant center where it is on my car and the lower antisquat value it will be a non issue.

 

[55R2014]

I ordered the TA today with a slight change. Filip was not comfortable using the stamped steel diff cover but pointed me towards the Boss 302 finned diff cover instead which does work. His fabrication guy was already modifying the endplate to fit better and I should have the arm next week early sometime!

Anyway, while I was on the phone with him I asked straight away the reasoning for the Torque Arm and he gave me two reasons:
1.) The short upper link causing instant center stability issues as well as the rapid change in pinion angle causing bearing wear on raced cars.

2.) This was his most important reason: Bite off the corner. I asked him about setting up a 3 link to do that and his comment was that in order to match the off the corner bite or a Torque Arm you would run into serious roll steer issues or pinion angle sweep issues. He did say that he still runs 3 links on a few of his cars which had ground up 3 link designs made for them but those modifications are extensive enough that it couldnt be done with an oem unibody, at least not easily.

Anyway, when it arrives expect a stupid long, detailed post as he has asked for a lot of pictures installed since they have never mounted it this way before. He is confident that it will be strong enough for my power level and use. I asked about brake hop and he reassured me that with the instant center where it is on my car and the lower antisquat value it will be a non issue.

Whiskey11,

Congrats on your purchase. When Filip was installing my system, he test fitted the torque arm end plate on my Track Pack GT differential cover, it is the same as the Boss 302 finned differential cover. Here is a picture.

 

[Whiskey11]

Whiskey11,

Congrats on your purchase. When Filip was installing my system, he test fitted the torque arm end plate on my Track Pack GT differential cover, it is the same as the Boss 302 finned differential cover. Here is a picture.

Is it your car that is there now that he is working on my part from?

 

[55R2014]

Is it your car that is there now that he is working on my part from?

My Torque arm was installed in June. I left my stock finned cover with him so he could make sure it was a perfect fit and make any design changes if needed. I have put over 4000 street miles on my torque arm since the install.

 

[55R2014]

I found a few on the web but: :worth:

Come on Barbaro snap some install pics


Originally Posted by Whiskey11
I know Filip has posted before on the Coral that Cortex Racing doesn't employ someone to peruse forums and that he is too active in the development, testing, and building process to do it himself

I hear you, but I'm not convinced anyone is that busy.


I look forward to your findings Whiskey

I have not been on this thread of a while so I'm sorry for missing the request for pictures. These torque arm install pictures are from my install back in June. I trimmed the selection down to 1/3 of what I shot but still quite a few. Here ya go...

 

[Whiskey11]

My Torque arm was installed in June. I left my stock finned cover with him so he could make sure it was a perfect fit and make any design changes if needed. I have put over 4000 street miles on my torque arm since the install.

Interesting, I wonder why he told me they had never done it before? Not that it matters, just curious.