I have the watts link cover on my car. At that time he had only installed the end plate on his custom watts link covers. He matched it up to mine just to see how it would fit (thats the picture I provided). Then asked if I would leave my cover with him so he could make sure it would fit correctly work on the stock finned cover.
Cortex Torque Arm Racechrono Track Review
- Thread starter barbaro
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I have the watts link cover on my car. At that time he had only installed the end plate on his custom watts link covers. He matched it up to mine just to see how it would fit (thats the picture I provided). Then asked if I would leave my cover with him so he could make sure it would fit correctly work on the stock finned cover.
Whiskey11
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Ahh, that makes sense then. I will take a look at the photos when I get home but I am pretty jittery waiting for it to arrive!
Ahh, that makes sense then. I will take a look at the photos when I get home but I am pretty jittery waiting for it to arrive!
I'm sure you are...lol. I kinda picture-bombed the thread. I hope I didn't cut into your plans for posting pictures here. I also have some of the watts link install if you want to see them. Are you going to install the coilovers too?
Whiskey11
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Nope, this is a "Torque Arm only" expedition. The SCCA's class rules for Street Touring prohibit relocating the rear springs to over the shocks. I have the Ground Control coilover setup (the full coilover setup, not a set of conversion sleeves for standard sized struts) and they use a weight jacker for the rear springs which IS legal so that is what I'm running.
Part of the "confusion" is that the diff cover had to clear the Fays2 Watts link which it sounds like this finned cover just barely does which is fine by me as it saves both Filip and myself headache in the long run!
I promised Filip detailed photos of the install so I plan on doing exactly that for him since he asked. I will do a full on write up anyway, most likely as part of my build thread updates.
2013DIBGT
I Hate Wheelhop
Sweet baby Jesus man... 
You sir have redeemed this thread by a long shot. I very much appreciate you posting these great pics. Its almost like seeing a unicorn. You hear about it, there are only vague sightings and descriptions of it, then bang, there it is. Hopefully Cortex will put these up on their website for all considering the kit to see. I feel it would greatly stimulate sales of the unit.
In any event, I have also decided to join the Cortex torque arm club and expect to place my order at the end of the month. I will be going with the full rear end package (Watts, Control Arms & brackets, Torque Arm) and using it with my Koni Yellow and Steeda Sport Spring setup waiting to go on the car.
The pile of parts is building in my living room....
A few questions for you if you don't mind.
Do you think the removal of the exhaust is a requirement for the TA install and also do you feel that it would be necessary to have an X Pipe setup for it to work or should the stock H pipe be OK?
Would you consider this install feasible for a poor slob like myself who has turned a few wrenches in the past using jack stands?
Lastly, do you feel that the Watts link mounting tower that attaches to the underside of the car is sturdy enough to not weld?
Thanks again for posting the pics.
You sir have redeemed this thread by a long shot. I very much appreciate you posting these great pics. Its almost like seeing a unicorn. You hear about it, there are only vague sightings and descriptions of it, then bang, there it is. Hopefully Cortex will put these up on their website for all considering the kit to see. I feel it would greatly stimulate sales of the unit.
In any event, I have also decided to join the Cortex torque arm club and expect to place my order at the end of the month. I will be going with the full rear end package (Watts, Control Arms & brackets, Torque Arm) and using it with my Koni Yellow and Steeda Sport Spring setup waiting to go on the car.
The pile of parts is building in my living room....
A few questions for you if you don't mind.
Do you think the removal of the exhaust is a requirement for the TA install and also do you feel that it would be necessary to have an X Pipe setup for it to work or should the stock H pipe be OK?
Would you consider this install feasible for a poor slob like myself who has turned a few wrenches in the past using jack stands?
Lastly, do you feel that the Watts link mounting tower that attaches to the underside of the car is sturdy enough to not weld?
Thanks again for posting the pics.
sheizasosay
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Nope, this is a "Torque Arm only" expedition. The SCCA's class rules for Street Touring prohibit relocating the rear springs to over the shocks. I have the Ground Control coilover setup (the full coilover setup, not a set of conversion sleeves for standard sized struts) and they use a weight jacker for the rear springs which IS legal so that is what I'm running.
Part of the "confusion" is that the diff cover had to clear the Fays2 Watts link which it sounds like this finned cover just barely does which is fine by me as it saves both Filip and myself headache in the long run!
I promised Filip detailed photos of the install so I plan on doing exactly that for him since he asked. I will do a full on write up anyway, most likely as part of my build thread updates.
I can't wait to see the write up and pictures. Enjoy the torque arm.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Originally Posted by Whiskey11 
I asked him about setting up a 3 link to do that and his comment was that in order to match the off the corner bite or a Torque Arm you would run into serious roll steer issues or pinion angle sweep issues. He did say that he still runs 3 links on a few of his cars which had ground up 3 link designs made for them but those modifications are extensive enough that it couldnt be done with an oem unibody, at least not easily.
Bite off the corner being a byproduct of antisquat (assuming "rear bite"). Adjusting the antisquat via the UCA doesn't impact roll steer.
I have no clue about "pinion angle sweep issues".
Pinion angle sweep sounds like the variation in pinion angle that happens as the rear suspension is dropped. If you shift the UCA inclination to avoid roll steer issues, you get a greater amount of this sweep (P.A. varies more/faster). Adjusting LCA inclination for more anti-squat can actually reduce the rate of P.A. change, but with that comes the roll steer issue.
for the TA, the way I read it, is that it can deliver more antisquat than an Adj UCA.
It appears to be able to deliver more anti-squat than an OE-based 3 link can without involving either fabrication beyond bolting on different parts or using parts/pivot point relocations that are not ST*-legal.
Throw relo brackets into the mix to make sure the LCA's are level.
Whiskey, how much lowered is your car? Maybe BMR or Norm has data of there adj UCA AS% at stock and a couple different ride heights(with UCA in alternate adj hole).
All I have is based on the OE UCA pivot point coordinates. For that, AS% is about 31% at rest (with driver), drops to about 30% at around 1" squat, then rises back to ~35% at a little more than 2.25" squat.
It wouldn't take much time at all to actually rerun the numbers for a different chassis side pickup point height. But my internet access may be problematic for a couple of days (long story involving a new provider).
I asked about brake hop and he reassured me that with the instant center where it is on my car and the lower antisquat value it will be a non issue. So it's safe to assume that you will not have too much greater than 100% AS plus or minus a few percent?
With a stock ride height car at rest, I'm getting around 85% anti-squat with a TA. At 1" lower, more like 60%. That's based on a 42" long torque arm. If it's longer, the AS% numbers will drop slightly.
The shape of the AS% curve for a TA is quite different from that of the OE 3 link.
Norm
I asked him about setting up a 3 link to do that and his comment was that in order to match the off the corner bite or a Torque Arm you would run into serious roll steer issues or pinion angle sweep issues. He did say that he still runs 3 links on a few of his cars which had ground up 3 link designs made for them but those modifications are extensive enough that it couldnt be done with an oem unibody, at least not easily.
Bite off the corner being a byproduct of antisquat (assuming "rear bite"). Adjusting the antisquat via the UCA doesn't impact roll steer.
I have no clue about "pinion angle sweep issues".
Pinion angle sweep sounds like the variation in pinion angle that happens as the rear suspension is dropped. If you shift the UCA inclination to avoid roll steer issues, you get a greater amount of this sweep (P.A. varies more/faster). Adjusting LCA inclination for more anti-squat can actually reduce the rate of P.A. change, but with that comes the roll steer issue.
for the TA, the way I read it, is that it can deliver more antisquat than an Adj UCA.
It appears to be able to deliver more anti-squat than an OE-based 3 link can without involving either fabrication beyond bolting on different parts or using parts/pivot point relocations that are not ST*-legal.
Throw relo brackets into the mix to make sure the LCA's are level.
Whiskey, how much lowered is your car? Maybe BMR or Norm has data of there adj UCA AS% at stock and a couple different ride heights(with UCA in alternate adj hole).
All I have is based on the OE UCA pivot point coordinates. For that, AS% is about 31% at rest (with driver), drops to about 30% at around 1" squat, then rises back to ~35% at a little more than 2.25" squat.
It wouldn't take much time at all to actually rerun the numbers for a different chassis side pickup point height. But my internet access may be problematic for a couple of days (long story involving a new provider).
I asked about brake hop and he reassured me that with the instant center where it is on my car and the lower antisquat value it will be a non issue. So it's safe to assume that you will not have too much greater than 100% AS plus or minus a few percent?
With a stock ride height car at rest, I'm getting around 85% anti-squat with a TA. At 1" lower, more like 60%. That's based on a 42" long torque arm. If it's longer, the AS% numbers will drop slightly.
The shape of the AS% curve for a TA is quite different from that of the OE 3 link.
Norm
Whiskey11
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Originally Posted by Whiskey11
I asked him about setting up a 3 link to do that and his comment was that in order to match the off the corner bite or a Torque Arm you would run into serious roll steer issues or pinion angle sweep issues. He did say that he still runs 3 links on a few of his cars which had ground up 3 link designs made for them but those modifications are extensive enough that it couldnt be done with an oem unibody, at least not easily.
Bite off the corner being a byproduct of antisquat (assuming "rear bite"). Adjusting the antisquat via the UCA doesn't impact roll steer.
I have no clue about "pinion angle sweep issues".
Pinion angle sweep sounds like the variation in pinion angle that happens as the rear suspension is dropped. If you shift the UCA inclination to avoid roll steer issues, you get a greater amount of this sweep (P.A. varies more/faster). Adjusting LCA inclination for more anti-squat can actually reduce the rate of P.A. change, but with that comes the roll steer issue.
for the TA, the way I read it, is that it can deliver more antisquat than an Adj UCA.
It appears to be able to deliver more anti-squat than an OE-based 3 link can without involving either fabrication beyond bolting on different parts or using parts/pivot point relocations that are not ST*-legal.
Throw relo brackets into the mix to make sure the LCA's are level.
Whiskey, how much lowered is your car? Maybe BMR or Norm has data of there adj UCA AS% at stock and a couple different ride heights(with UCA in alternate adj hole).
All I have is based on the OE UCA pivot point coordinates. For that, AS% is about 31% at rest (with driver), drops to about 30% at around 1" squat, then rises back to ~35% at a little more than 2.25" squat.
It wouldn't take much time at all to actually rerun the numbers for a different chassis side pickup point height. But my internet access may be problematic for a couple of days (long story involving a new provider).
I asked about brake hop and he reassured me that with the instant center where it is on my car and the lower antisquat value it will be a non issue. So it's safe to assume that you will not have too much greater than 100% AS plus or minus a few percent?
With a stock ride height car at rest, I'm getting around 85% anti-squat with a TA. At 1" lower, more like 60%. That's based on a 42" long torque arm. If it's longer, the AS% numbers will drop slightly.
The shape of the AS% curve for a TA is quite different from that of the OE 3 link.
Norm
Norm when I plugged my numbers into the %antisquat calculator from the drag racing section with the chassis side points lowered about my ride height from your numbers (I'll have to remember where that is at again) I came up with less than 10%, like 5%-8% and with the Torque Arm about %34 (UCA length and angle tweaked to get the IC length at the torque arm length which I don't think is an accurate %AS number). Now I also used the guestimated length of the Cortex Torque Arm of 47" which would put the mounting pad at the CV joint in the middle of the driveshaft which is going to be +/- an inch or so based on the pictures posted earlier.
You've definitely got the reason why I chose it down pat. The SCCA ST and SP class does not currently allow us to relocate the chassis side pick up points to allow for more %AS with the UCA nor does it allow relocation brackets. The Torque Arm allows me to get that back in a legal for the SCCA way. Of course I've written in asking for this allowance to be made so that people with live axles have more options for tuning but I'll probably keep the piece on if that allowance goes through.
Without having my ride height numbers again, I can't possibly replicate the results but I remember posting them somewhere. I'll have to dig through my posts again to get more accurate numbers. Just messing with that calculator again I supposedly am losing %AS going to the Torque Arm setup which doesn't sound right to me so something must be entered in wrong.
Sweet baby Jesus man...
You sir have redeemed this thread by a long shot. I very much appreciate you posting these great pics. Its almost like seeing a unicorn. You hear about it, there are only vague sightings and descriptions of it, then bang, there it is. Hopefully Cortex will put these up on their website for all considering the kit to see. I feel it would greatly stimulate sales of the unit.
In any event, I have also decided to join the Cortex torque arm club and expect to place my order at the end of the month. I will be going with the full rear end package (Watts, Control Arms & brackets, Torque Arm) and using it with my Koni Yellow and Steeda Sport Spring setup waiting to go on the car.
The pile of parts is building in my living room....
A few questions for you if you don't mind.
Do you think the removal of the exhaust is a requirement for the TA install and also do you feel that it would be necessary to have an X Pipe setup for it to work or should the stock H pipe be OK?
Would you consider this install feasible for a poor slob like myself who has turned a few wrenches in the past using jack stands?
Lastly, do you feel that the Watts link mounting tower that attaches to the underside of the car is sturdy enough to not weld?
Thanks again for posting the pics.
I'm glad the pictures helped.
Removal of the exhaust is not required for the torque arm install in most cases. That being said, my factory exhaust system had a significant convergence angle coming off the H-pipe before getting to the resonators that would not allow the torque arm to fit. Filip said mine was the first car he had worked on with that little room to work with. My options were to cut up the stock pipes and move them around to make room for the torque arm or replace the exhaust. Since I was ordering the Borla Touring (quiet) mufflers anyway, I went ahead and just got the catback system which included the X-pipe.
Yes, I would consider this install feasible on jack stands. I did not have all the proper equipment and tools at home so I had CorteX do the install. It took his mechanic about six hours to do the whole coil over and watts link install. The torque arm was installed two weeks later and took about two hours.
If you are talking about the support tower that comes down from the drivers side frame rail, the answer is NO. It is located with two bolts first but requires welding. It is the mounting point for the drivers side (lower) watts link rod and gets extra support from a brace that looks like a pan hard bar…lol (makes for interesting comments from curious onlookers).
I hope these additional pictures help with your questions.
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2013DIBGT
I Hate Wheelhop
55R2014:
Thanks again for the additional pics and answers. They greatly help in the planning for my own install.
I'll crawl under the vehicle and see how my H-Pipe and resonator tubes lay but I have a feeling I will need to go the same route you did and pickup an X-Pipe and resonator deletes to ensure everything fits as expected. Hopefully not but will see I guess.
I'm glad to see that the Watts tower is welded in place but it does add a bit of a kink in my plans for doing all of the work myself since I don't have a welder. I may have to install things in a phased approach and leave the car at a local tuner for the Watts and welding.
Without your contributions and info I may have ended up with my pecker in my hand during this install....Thanks
Thanks again for the additional pics and answers. They greatly help in the planning for my own install.
I'll crawl under the vehicle and see how my H-Pipe and resonator tubes lay but I have a feeling I will need to go the same route you did and pickup an X-Pipe and resonator deletes to ensure everything fits as expected. Hopefully not but will see I guess.
I'm glad to see that the Watts tower is welded in place but it does add a bit of a kink in my plans for doing all of the work myself since I don't have a welder. I may have to install things in a phased approach and leave the car at a local tuner for the Watts and welding.
Without your contributions and info I may have ended up with my pecker in my hand during this install....Thanks
55R2014:
Thanks again for the additional pics and answers. They greatly help in the planning for my own install.
I'll crawl under the vehicle and see how my H-Pipe and resonator tubes lay but I have a feeling I will need to go the same route you did and pickup an X-Pipe and resonator deletes to ensure everything fits as expected. Hopefully not but will see I guess.
I'm glad to see that the Watts tower is welded in place but it does add a bit of a kink in my plans for doing all of the work myself since I don't have a welder. I may have to install things in a phased approach and leave the car at a local tuner for the Watts and welding.
Without your contributions and info I may have ended up with my pecker in my hand during this install....Thanks
I'm glad the information is helping you out.
If there is 1.5 inches of space or less between the pipes after the "H", then the torque arm probably won't fit. If its 2.5 inches or more you will probably be okay. Double check the fitment though just to be sure. I'm sorry that I don't have the exact spacing on mine with both exhaust systems. I do not know the diameter of the torque arm.
If there are anymore pictures or information that I can help with just ask.
barbaro
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55R2014:
Thanks again for the additional pics and answers. They greatly help in the planning for my own install.
I'll crawl under the vehicle and see how my H-Pipe and resonator tubes lay but I have a feeling I will need to go the same route you did and pickup an X-Pipe and resonator deletes to ensure everything fits as expected. Hopefully not but will see I guess.
I'm glad to see that the Watts tower is welded in place but it does add a bit of a kink in my plans for doing all of the work myself since I don't have a welder. I may have to install things in a phased approach and leave the car at a local tuner for the Watts and welding.
Without your contributions and info I may have ended up with my pecker in my hand during this install....Thanks
You need a lift. You could do it on jack stands but why torture yourself. It took a trained mechanic with a lift and all necessary tools 6 hours and that was without the torque arm. Double the install time for you in your garage.
I have an xpipe and it is a tight fit but it fits. There are pics of this install elsewhere. Cortex has a facebook page check it out.
By the way, after having been excoriated for advocating a torque arm, have I been at long last vindicated? It seems the weight of opinion has shifted towards me. God knows I am no engineer but are my truthful and accurate subjective impressions being proven true? Could it be? Was I . . . . . Right?
barbaro
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Does anybody still believe this? Did the track video of the torque arm equipped car solidly taking corners and the traditional three link car getting all squirrely mean anything? Isn't that what I described? Was I the blind one?
sheizasosay
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Oh sweet 7lb 8oz little baby Jesus .....
Barbaro, did you notice at what exact point I said "now we're getting somewhere"? It was right around the time "magic" was taken out your description and a plausible explanation was produced. And it's not done yet either. We still need to put the TA against a UCA with the alt pick up points on the mount, ie: BMR adj UCA mount.
Almost there , don't spike the football just yet. If your original description would have been something close to what Whiskey said, which is quoted from the guy who makes the product, then this thread would have been about as different as mine and your political beliefs.
Barbaro, did you notice at what exact point I said "now we're getting somewhere"? It was right around the time "magic" was taken out your description and a plausible explanation was produced. And it's not done yet either. We still need to put the TA against a UCA with the alt pick up points on the mount, ie: BMR adj UCA mount.
Almost there , don't spike the football just yet. If your original description would have been something close to what Whiskey said, which is quoted from the guy who makes the product, then this thread would have been about as different as mine and your political beliefs.
No. Maybe if you actually did your own work and didn't use so many ludicrous superlatives and hyperboles in your initial description, people would have actually listened to your opinion. As it is, I'm still withholding judgement until I see some pictures and results from someone who races their car competitively and actually installs parts himself (e.g. Whiskey11.)
I installed mine in the garage on jack stands. No sweat. I welded the watts tower with a gasless wire-feed. Ask around, I'm sure somebody you know has one. I'm not 100% certain, but see if it's possible to mount the watts tower without pulling the panhard. If it'll work, you can drive the car to an exhaust shop, buddies house, whatever, and have that welded in first. Then tear everything apart. As far as the TA clearing the h-pipe, Filip told me it'd clear the stock piece, but I've got a Lethal H-pipe which allows you to adjust the spacing between pipes. It's a perfect solution (IMO) for this TA setup, as you can perfectly center the pipes after the arm and mount are in.
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