Cortex Torque Arm Racechrono Track Review

[55R2014]

I installed mine in the garage on jack stands. No sweat. I welded the watts tower with a gasless wire-feed. Ask around, I'm sure somebody you know has one. I'm not 100% certain, but see if it's possible to mount the watts tower without pulling the panhard. If it'll work, you can drive the car to an exhaust shop, buddies house, whatever, and have that welded in first. Then tear everything apart. As far as the TA clearing the h-pipe, Filip told me it'd clear the stock piece, but I've got a Lethal H-pipe which allows you to adjust the spacing between pipes. It's a perfect solution (IMO) for this TA setup, as you can perfectly center the pipes after the arm and mount are in.

Filip mentioned to me that my factory exhaust system was the first one he had seen that would not clear the torque arm. Mine had some steeper angles in the bends after the "H". My car is a 2014 so maybe the factory made some exhaust fitment changes. If yours is a Pre-2014 you may be okay with no interference issues.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Does anybody still believe this? Did the track video of the torque arm equipped car solidly taking corners and the traditional three link car getting all squirrely mean anything? Isn't that what I described? Was I the blind one?

Devil's advocate . . .

If the torque arm'ed car had been catching or even just pacing the hot tuned car ahead consistently on corner exit before giving it up, you'd have evidence with some substance. You'd be able to say that despite being down on power, the difference in suspension was sufficient to cover it. But that's not what I saw (watch the exits from Oak Tree, which comes up at 4:19, 6:27, 8:35, etc., - it's the slowest corner where higher anti-squat ought to be at its best advantage but wasn't showing me anything).

Squirrely could be a consequence of the hot tune, or just a generally looser suspension tune; at best that's a variable of unknown importance and enough to cloud any conclusions.


I'd hold off on the "I told you so's" if I were you . . .


Norm

 

[barbaro]

Devil's advocate . . .

If the torque arm'ed car had been catching or even just pacing the hot tuned car ahead consistently on corner exit before giving it up, you'd have evidence with some substance. You'd be able to say that despite being down on power, the difference in suspension was sufficient to cover it. But that's not what I saw (watch the exits from Oak Tree, which comes up at 4:19, 6:27, 8:35, etc., - it's the slowest corner where higher anti-squat ought to be at its best advantage but wasn't showing me anything).

Squirrely could be a consequence of the hot tune, or just a generally looser suspension tune; at best that's a variable of unknown importance and enough to cloud any conclusions.


I'd hold off on the "I told you so's" if I were you . . .


Norm

What I saw was a lack of rear end control on one car and the opposite on the car with the torque arm. You also blithely discount the testimony of the driver who echoed everything I said. Before they raced it, they tested it. Do you think the torque arm was put on the car because it turned slower lap times?

 

[barbaro]

No. Maybe if you actually did your own work and didn't use so many ludicrous superlatives and hyperboles in your initial description, people would have actually listened to your opinion. As it is, I'm still withholding judgement until I see some pictures and results from someone who races their car competitively and actually installs parts himself (e.g. Whiskey11.)

Wasn't the video that was posted exactly what you just demanded? The superlatives were justified. In your signature is a quote "tell her . . . . the couch pulls out but you don't." Every single time you post, I see that and then you dismiss me and expect me to take you seriously. I don't. But you are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is now being restated better by others.

 

[Sky Render]

Yeah? That quote was from another member, not me. And every time you post, Carlo, I recall your racist, homophobic rant on another forum and dismiss everything you say.

 

[barbaro]

My superlatives were commonplace incidentally. This is from another forum describing a hellion turbo:

"First impressions on the installed kit (still need to finalize the tune and get some more miles on it though)

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA this thing is better then a threesome with twins!
HOLY ^%$#@ boost comes on early and just goes CRAZY past 4k rpm.
I have 275 nt555 tires in the rear dropped to 28psi and i couldn't even get third gear to grip past 4k this thing is a BEAST. i cant imagine how crazy this is going to feel on a built motor with 24 psi and some slicks!!!!

Sell your soul, your body, your first born daughter to sex slavery in another country if you have to. GET THIS KIT.

Oh and on a side note after leaving skid marks on the pavement and almost leaving some in my pants, my list of future mods have had a priority revision. BRAKES are now #1"

That is effusive praise. I was tame in comparison. The writer gets to tell the truth as he sees it not as you see it.

 

[barbaro]

Yeah? That quote was from another member, not me. And every time you post, Carlo, I recall your racist, homophobic rant on another forum and dismiss everything you say.

It is one thing to have an indiscretion. It is another thing to repeat your bad judgment with every post. You have posted over 4000 times. Maybe it is time to take a rest. Also, "Sky", I am at a loss. You addressed me by name. But I don't know yours. Please give me the privilege you have taken for yourself and tell me your name so i can address you in kind, in public. Unless of course you wish to remain anonymous.

 

[Norm Peterson]

What I saw was a lack of rear end control on one car

We all saw that. What we don't really know is why.

It is absolutely possible that the TA is that much more stable and easier to drive. But that is something that none of us here outside the car will be able to distinguish from the other possibilities I mentioned yesterday.

and the opposite on the car with the torque arm.

You are not entitled to use a description as absolute as "the opposite" when the camera angles are not as close to identical as possible. What may be clearly apparent in watching the car ahead do a little left to right wiggle will be less so when you can only infer that movement by watching your car's yaw (rotation about a vertical axis) behavior.

You can't directly see your own car's tail wag; all you can do is notice the slight change in its heading as it happens - which tends to get lost in the car's intentional change in direction while still cornering.

You also blithely discount the testimony of the driver who echoed everything I said. Before they raced it, they tested it. Do you think the torque arm was put on the car because it turned slower lap times?

Keep in mind that I did not claim the Cortex TA was inferior. Just that the evidence provided is not strong enough to permit a judgment of clear superiority - pretty much my position since day 1 here.

Dunno, maybe it suited their driver enough better to be a clear decision. Maybe it was close enough to a wash that the chance of improvement based on further seat time justified giving it a shot. Maybe it really is that much more stable. None of us in this thread can know. Certainly I can't from here.

If you want me to agree that a TA is in fact superior, it'll take more (tech) than what I've seen so far. And less emotional content - get rid of that part entirely. I can't remember where that approach ever worked on me in any of my day jobs, ever (even when it was coming from the boss).

As far as I am concerned, this is specifically a technical matter, and since I'm an engineer emotionally-oriented appeals aren't going to work with me. If you didn't challenge me off the jury on a contentious court case where the defense was intending to use a heavy dose of emotional appeal, your client would probably have grounds for appeal based on inadequate defense. Am I getting through here?


Norm

 

[2013DIBGT]

I installed mine in the garage on jack stands. No sweat. I welded the watts tower with a gasless wire-feed. Ask around, I'm sure somebody you know has one. I'm not 100% certain, but see if it's possible to mount the watts tower without pulling the panhard. If it'll work, you can drive the car to an exhaust shop, buddies house, whatever, and have that welded in first. Then tear everything apart. As far as the TA clearing the h-pipe, Filip told me it'd clear the stock piece, but I've got a Lethal H-pipe which allows you to adjust the spacing between pipes. It's a perfect solution (IMO) for this TA setup, as you can perfectly center the pipes after the arm and mount are in.

Hello, Thanks for posting your experience with the install.

Its funny you mentioned the idea of maybe installing the Watts tower before tearing everything down. I wondered if this was possible also the other day as the hamster in my skull was working overtime trying to come up with different ways to handle the welding obstacle ahead.

Putting my armchair engineering cap on for a moment and using a bit of my imagination ... while comparing these two pics below I think it looks promising to be able to mount the tower ahead of time while maintaining the OEM panhard. The OEM panhard appears to follow a pretty straight line off of the mounting point just below where the Watts tower comes to rest. Plus it looks like the Watts tower has a nice arch away from the OEM panhard mounting point:

 

[Norm Peterson]

So I looked up the 2012 Solo Nationals ESP results. Looks to me like a pretty even distribution of TA (10) vs 3-link (6) going down to 20th place.

TA
3-link
TA
3-link
tri 4-link
TA
3-link
TA
TA
(WRX)
3-link
TA
(Talon)
TA
TA
3-link
TA
TA
3-link
(WRX)


Norm

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Norm,

Just curious for the sake of statistical analysis, but how many of the Torque-Arm cars were OE equipped, a la F-Body?

Oh, and one more data point to throw out there: We have a 4th Gen F-body in our region that is a regular on the AI podium, and has multiple regional championships. He ditched the torque-arm and replaced it with a fabricated 3-link...

Also, just to derail this thread even further by commenting on the AI race video, when you're in race-mode, and pushing hard, your focus is on 100% throttle application. Period. Any time the skinny one on the right isn't mashed into the floorboard, you're cursing. When you drive like that, more often than not, you will not get a smooth, lazy rotation into a tail-out attitude on corner exit, you'll start sliding it and catching it with the wheel. From a mindset perspective, if the rear isn't threatening to let go on you, you're leaving throttle on the table, and that doesn't win races. Also remember that the AI cars are running on 275mm Toyo RA-1's, AKA Baby's First R-Compound. They are NOT sticky! I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, or undesirable in the way the lead car in the vid was exiting. IF the trail car had such amazing forward bite with the TA, then I would expect either heavy understeer tendencies, or he should have been gobbling up the other guy in the corners. Neither happened. Also, one other factor to think about: Sponsorship. Cobetto is a sponsorship machine. He got Saleen to sponsor the initial build, and now he's running Cortex components. If he's got sponsored bits on the car, there's no way in hell he's going to say they suck publicly. Just food for thought.

I have no dog in this fight either way, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so your mileage may vary, batteries not included, etc. I will say that I have moved to an "open" class (From PTB to ST3), but I honestly can't see the advantage to a torque arm over a fully Heim jointed 3-link suspension. And no, "Dude, it's F*N AWESOME!!!" will not be sufficient to make me want to change...

 

[Norm Peterson]

All of the TA-equipped cars were either 3rd or 4th gen F-bodies. The 1st place car was a 3rd gen Firebird


Norm

 

[modernbeat]

All of the TA-equipped cars were either 3rd or 4th gen F-bodies. The 1st place car was a 3rd gen Firebird...

So, nobody installed a TA on a car that did not come with one stock?

 

[dontlifttoshift]

FWIW, the #97/197 4th gen is running a decoupled torque arm. I thought Maderash was as well but could be wrong on that.

 

[Whiskey11]

Torque Arm came in and it is frighteningly simple for an install, I just need the time to install it all. Tomorrow night and Friday morning/early afternoon are going to be busy since I have the TA to install, watts link to rebuild and reinstall and Sam's rear swaybar to reinstall and the front to move to full stiff. Poly bushings still need modifying and I have one arm done and working on the other.

Teaser:

 

[55R2014]

Torque Arm came in and it is frighteningly simple for an install, I just need the time to install it all. Tomorrow night and Friday morning/early afternoon are going to be busy since I have the TA to install, watts link to rebuild and reinstall and Sam's rear swaybar to reinstall and the front to move to full stiff. Poly bushings still need modifying and I have one arm done and working on the other.

Teaser:

Congrats Man. It looks good. Keep the pictures coming.

 

[2013DIBGT]

Nice, can you comment on the beefiness of the plate that mounts to the rear diff? I have only seen it in pics thus far but it always seems to look rather thin and flexible. So far, are you pleased with the build quality of the parts you have pawed?

Thanks

 

[barbaro]

Norm,

Just curious for the sake of statistical analysis, but how many of the Torque-Arm cars were OE equipped, a la F-Body?

Oh, and one more data point to throw out there: We have a 4th Gen F-body in our region that is a regular on the AI podium, and has multiple regional championships. He ditched the torque-arm and replaced it with a fabricated 3-link...

Also, just to derail this thread even further by commenting on the AI race video, when you're in race-mode, and pushing hard, your focus is on 100% throttle application. Period. Any time the skinny one on the right isn't mashed into the floorboard, you're cursing. When you drive like that, more often than not, you will not get a smooth, lazy rotation into a tail-out attitude on corner exit, you'll start sliding it and catching it with the wheel. From a mindset perspective, if the rear isn't threatening to let go on you, you're leaving throttle on the table, and that doesn't win races. Also remember that the AI cars are running on 275mm Toyo RA-1's, AKA Baby's First R-Compound. They are NOT sticky! I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, or undesirable in the way the lead car in the vid was exiting. IF the trail car had such amazing forward bite with the TA, then I would expect either heavy understeer tendencies, or he should have been gobbling up the other guy in the corners. Neither happened. Also, one other factor to think about: Sponsorship. Cobetto is a sponsorship machine. He got Saleen to sponsor the initial build, and now he's running Cortex components. If he's got sponsored bits on the car, there's no way in hell he's going to say they suck publicly. Just food for thought.

I have no dog in this fight either way, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so your mileage may vary, batteries not included, etc. I will say that I have moved to an "open" class (From PTB to ST3), but I honestly can't see the advantage to a torque arm over a fully Heim jointed 3-link suspension. And no, "Dude, it's F*N AWESOME!!!" will not be sufficient to make me want to change...

So what.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

So what.

Okay, let me try to explain this to you, again. I'll use small words, and break it down by paragraph...


1) The reason that it matters whether the Torque-arm is OE or not is to see if REPLACING one type of suspension with a T/A is showing benefits or not. Given Norm's posting of finishing positions and equipment, it would appear that the T/A is a contender. With his response, we can see that ALL the T/A cars were OE equipped with one, so that means that NOT a lot of people have made the swap and reached the upper levels...

2) The fact that an F-body, which is equipped with a Torque-arm, replaced it with an aftermarket fabricated 3-link, and is successful, would show that a T/A is NOT an automatic FTW part. This is called evidence, or data, that supports the argument AGAINST swapping from a 3-link to a T/A.

3) Hunter posted the video as a basis for supporting the Torque-arm as being superior to the 3-link, and I offered some thoughts about why that may not necessarily be the conclusion to draw from the video. In particular, driving style can have a BIG impact on how the rear behaves, as can desired chassis tuning to fit that style. Remember that as a general rule, "loose is fast."

4) This paragraph explains why I'm taking the position I am.

In the end, Barbaro, you may want to think a little bit, and post a little less... NOBODY here is going to make a huge suspension change to the car and drop a large amount of coin based on research evidence that consists of "Barbaro said it was 'bitchin!'" At least not without some hard data to back that up, of which you have provided exactly nothing.

 

[Norm Peterson]

So, nobody installed a TA on a car that did not come with one stock?

Nothing that I could uncover through multiple searches.


If "mkm" over at FRRAX.com is Madarash, he had used at one time a Herb Adams version of the decoupled TA. Broke something on the upper link at Nationals in 1995. There's some mention of "Global West" following that episode, but I didn't go chasing any further to try to find out if whatever broke was replaced with something stouter or if some sort of DIY decoupling was used in replacement or if the decoupling was scrapped entirely.

The decoupled TA is an interesting concept, provided you can get the transitioning between when it is TA and when it's a 3-link sorted out.


Norm