DiMora's Build Thread

[DiMora]

Well...The S197 classifieds got the best of me, and I am taking the plunge.

I've built three engines before - two Kawasaki ZRX motorcycle engines and one push-rod V8 (Ford 335 series 400 - .030 over, full hydraulic roller-rocker setup) - but this is my first modular.

I would like advice on part selection. I'll ask some specific questions here in a minute.

Here are my goals: RELIABLE build - the car is 98% street car and show car, but I do take it down the drag strip about twice a year for some charity and social events...I rarely "compete". I would be happy in the 550-600 RWHP range on 93 pump gas. My TVS with an overdrive crank pulley and 2.75 to 3" snout pulley will make ~18 PSI if desired.

Right now, I am running:

• Stock 4.6 GT engine
• Roush TVS R2300 with stock crank damper and a 3.47" pulley - 9PSI
• Mac Longtube headers, ProChamber, QTP cutouts, Roush extreme over-axle pipes into Roush on-road exhaust
• 52 LB injectors
• GT500 pumps
• Snow Performance Stage 3 Meth injection (not tuned for it; very light spray for safety and cooling IAT's only; no additional timing added)

Other noteworthy items (but not really germane to build) are a Steeda triple-pass heat exchanger, Meziere 20GPM pump, Canton icebox and full BMR / Steeda suspension upgrades.

I have already purchased (but not installed) the following short-block from Steve Poe. The block was run in an FR500S Mustang for about 3 months in a N/A configuration. I need to go through it and make sure everything is clean and inspected, but I don't anticipate any machine work or replacing any parts:

• Livernois-built stock bore 4.6 block
• Kellogg custom "Livernois" forged steel 3.750" stroker crankshaft
• Manley H-Beam 5.850" Rods w/ ARP2000 bolts
• Diamond "Livernois Exclusive" forged 2618 Pro series pistons
• Diamond Rings, locks, wrist-pins
• Clevite Tri-Armor coated bearings
• 9.8:1 compression and 4.88 liters displacement (298 cubic inches)

Other parts I already have in my garage awaiting the build:

• Comp 127350 cams: Comp Cam XFI VSR stage 2: 222/239 @ .050” duration, .490/.485, 116.5 LSA (127350 [7])
• FRPP Oil Pump #M-6600-F46 (New - with pick-up - From 2013 GT500 - high volume and has the thick steel back-plate)
• 8 rib complete conversion, with new alternator and A/C pump so I don't have to swap pulleys on those items (Off of Skwerl's wrecked car)
• Ford Racing Performance Products twin 65MM CobraJet throttle Body
• JLT 127mm Carbon Fiber BIG AIR intake
• VMP tuning TVS high-flow inlet elbow
• Kenne Bell Dual Boost-A-Pump for GT500 pumps

Parts I need(?) to buy, but I want input from forum members so as to avoid mistakes:

• McLeod 8 bolt flywheel (I currently run a 6 bolt, RXT clutch and T56 Magnum XL tranny)
• Cam phaser bolts M-6279-463V (Just ordered these a few minutes ago)
• Valve springs
• Valve Spring Retainers - Steel or Titanium, or re-use my existing ones?
• Ford TTY head bolts or ARP head studs?
• TSS billet oil pump gears?
• Gaskets (Ford / Fel Pro / Cometic?)
• Replace timing chain tensioners and guides? Plastic or 2V steel?
• Crank Damper - Innovaters West or SFI-certified OEM type?

Specific questions for the collective:

For my power goals, are TTY bolts good enough? I have seen too many nightmares on here with cracked aluminum blocks using ARP studs torqued to ARP spec. I could use studs and go 85 LB-FT instead of 100, or just stick with TTY. Again, I'll probably be around 18 PSI maximum.

What gaskets? I can buy a head change kit that has gaskets included (Fel-Pro?) or I can buy the Cometics I have seen recommended. Any input appreciated.

Steel or TI spring retainers, or re-use what I have? Car has 40-some thousand miles on it. Same question for the timing chain guides and tensioners. I have read that the plastic tensioners may acutally be BETTER than the 2V steel variants and that Ford changed them for a reason (less breakage) - not to be cheap.

TSS billet gears, or is the 2013 oil pump with beefy back-plate enough to solve the shattered gear concerns?

Lastly, the Comp Valve Springs are about $350. They have another set at $300 with slightly different specs.

26113-24 / 26125-24 are the part numbers. The 26125's are cost more. Link to spring data:

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=978&sb=2

Are there alternative brands that you guys recommend that cost less? I ask not to be cheap, but because when I did my previous builds, there were alternatives to Comp made by Lunati and Scorpion that were actually BETTER than the Comp offerings at a large cost savings.

What else am I missing from my shopping list?

Windage tray?

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts and knowledge.

Pics:

 

[AnotherS197GT]

Ford Racing makes a 3V head gasket set. About $70 for stock gaskets and TTY hardware. You'll be fine with TTY and 18 psi.

M-6067-3V46

Replace the pressure relief spring in the GT500 oil pump with your stock pressure relief spring. I just installed one in my car and at the advice of several members, I did that too. If I wasn't just an N/A car, I would have absolutely done the TSS gears. $300 insurance policy IMO.

I had a set of the 26125s break on me, I'd rather run the twist ties off a bread bag as valve spring than those again. I haven't heard of the 26113s breaking yet though. A few other members also had 26125s break. Use the steel retainers, no need for titanium.

Plastic 3V tensioners. The 2V metal tensioners have been known to break chain guides.

 

[BadPiggy]

The TSS Billet Oil Pump Gears are an absolute must on boosted engines. We have a forum member that lost a brand new turbo'd engine due to stock gears breaking.

The FRPP Head Kit will suffice in your build, which includes TTY hardware. If you decide on a different head gasket and still need TTY hardware, shoot me a PM. I have a brand new set of the bolts I'd sell.

Windage Tray? I'd recommend changing to the FRPP 8.5qt Oil Pan Kit which includes a windage tray and new bolts. About $180 from Tasca.

Are you going to install either limiters or lockouts on your cams? If you go with lockouts, no need to change phasers...but at your current mileage and not locking the cams, I'd change those, too. If you decide not to lock the cams, might as well buy the complete FRPP Timing Kit and change it all.

 

[Ingwe]

Looking forward to the build. Good set of parts there. Reiterate what was said about TSS gears. Always nice insurance.

Windage Tray? I'd recommend changing to the FRPP 8.5qt Oil Pan Kit which includes a windage tray and new bolts. About $180 from Tasca.

Got a link/part number for that Piggy? Could only find the oil pan (DR3Z-6675-A) and gasket/windage tray (BR3Z-6710-B) separately.

 

[skwerl]

Looking forward to the build. Good set of parts there. Reiterate what was said about TSS gears. Always nice insurance.



Got a link/part number for that Piggy? Could only find the oil pan (DR3Z-6675-A) and gasket/windage tray (BR3Z-6710-B) separately.

M-6675-MSVT
Check out this thread for more info- http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108402

Shane, I would confer with my tuner before installing lockouts. Lockouts can cost you torque at low rpm which can negatively affect low speed performance when driving around town. When I had the wrong cams on my car I had difficulty navigating parking lots without stalling the car or having to rev it up like a teenager driving a stick shift for the first time.

My second set of cams were 127450's which worked much better. I did have limiters and the heads I used had bigger valves and upgraded springs.

 

[429244]

...

Here are my goals: RELIABLE build - the car is 98% street car and show car, but I do take it down the drag strip about twice a year for some charity and social events...I rarely "compete". I would be happy in the 550-600 RWHP range on 93 pump gas. My TVS with an overdrive crank pulley and 2.75 to 3" snout pulley will make ~18 PSI if desired.

...

• Comp 127350 cams: Comp Cam XFI VSR stage 2: 222/239 @ .050” duration, .490/.485, 116.5 LSA (127350 [7])
  

Why did you select these cams for 98% street duty? Wouldn't you be better served with stock cams for the horsepower you seek and your application?

 

[dysan]

The comp 1273XX cams (both the N/A 300's and the S.C. 350's) have great driveability so there really isn't a downside to using them on the street.

 

[retfr8flyr]

I went with the Livernois springs with my cams and I have been very happy with them. If you are going to use limiters, I highly recommend not getting the Comp limiters, go with the Livernois limiters instead. The best deal was the FRPP replacement timing chains and phaser kit but they just greatly upped the price. I agree about the TSS gears, that's a no brainer, especially with a blower car.

 

[drive_55_not]

I went with the Livernois springs with my cams and I have been very happy with them. If you are going to use limiters, I highly recommend not getting the Comp limiters, go with the Livernois limiters instead. The best deal was the FRPP replacement timing chains and phaser kit but they just greatly upped the price. I agree about the TSS gears, that's a no brainer, especially with a blower car.

^^ This, I had one start hanging up on 20,000 miles so I went ahead and locked my cams out.

I’m running the cast GT500 oil pump and haven’t had any issues with it. I was talked out of billet gears by the guys at Roush that built my shortblock as he said he had not had any oil pump failures, That being said, I’d do the gears and I’ll be installing a billet pump when I refresh my built next fall,

Not a whole lotta’ choices with valve springs, Comp, Manley and Lunati make springs with the Lunati being the most economical and IIRC that is the spring Livernois uses.

I used the Comp 26113 spring/steel retainers with my .530” lift/ 230’ duration cams and routinely turn 7200+rpm with them.

I would not use the Comp 125’s, or any thing like it for a DD’er,

I had the Comp 127300’s and that is a very good cam, no issues on a DD. Picked up 25rwhp over the stockers. I did go with a custom grind on my build designed to use VCT and they picked up another 20rwhp over the Comp cams.

However I lost 20 peak hp when I locked them out so if you plan on locking your cams out, I’d get a set designed for lockouts.

Other than that, with a 2.65” upper and IW 10% OD crank pulley I made 620rwhp on BP-93 and TORCO. We saw 18psi on the dyno., I dropped back to a 3” upper at the same time I installed the lockouts and my power dropped back to 570rwhp.

So to make up for the power loss, I installed a little nitrous … J


..

 

[Ingwe]

M-6675-MSVT
Check out this thread for more info- http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108402

Thanks Skwerl. You tha man. Now back to the build...

 

[AutoXRacer]

Here is my take on it...

On the McLeod 8 bolt, yes all the way...you need an 8 bolt anyway. The McLeod is more expensive, yes, but exactly matches and fits their clutch kit.

With the 127350 cam, you may need Phaser limiters. I would recommend them as opposed to not running them. Not sure what Comp Cams recommends though. I ran limiters with my 127300 as they told me it was required.

Valve springs, I always recommend PAC Springs!! For your setup I would recommend the 1233 as you are under the 0.50" lift. Plus they allow you to use your stock retainers. Too many threads with failed Comp Cams springs.

I was told over and over again to not even spend the money on titanium retainers. They are brittle and when they fail its ugly. Its only useful on race cars that spin stupid high RPMs. My OEM retains are doing well at 7,800 RPM.
Titanium retainer should be used on dedicated race cars racing for money. If you want the best valvetrain gear go with Jesel. lol $4,000 for a set of followers...

I would not reused anything from your old motor...I'm super anal that way...new motor, new everything. I'm sure the retainers would be fine to reuse if you choose to; but they are cheap.

Definitely TTY head bolts!! Do not go with ARP head studs unless you want a headache. OEM Ford TTY head bolts have proven themselves over 1000HP.
Thats what I use and I have not had an issue. Follow OEM torque specs and they just work.
Plus ARP head stud kit is close to $500...money better spent elsewhere.
The only ARP blots I would highly recommend is on the short block; mains, rods, and those side bolts.

Oil pump gears...? I don't see a need for it if you already have a 2013 GT500 oil pump. Guys are running over 800HP with these stock 2013 GT500 oil pumps.
The TSS gears alone with set you back $400. I am currently running SVT high flow oil pump with TSS gears...but no steel backing plate.

Gaskets!! Ford OEM ALL THE WAY!! Again, 1000HP with OEM gaskets!! Those that have had issues is due to ARP studs. They did not follow ARP installation specs. Plus there have been erroneous specs provided by ARP. Main issue was the lack of use of special ARP torque fluid and torque specs.

If you are building a new motor and want it to run at least 100K miles without issues. Get new timing kit!!
You can order a whole new timing kit from Steve at TASCA that will include brand new Phasers for less that the price of two phasers bought at the dealership.
I think the whole kit was like $280 or something. I even ordered new followers and lifters.
Use OEM 3V (plastic) tensioners...do not use the steel or 2V ones...lots of reported failures using the 2V ones.
When you install the tensioners, make sure to lube the seals and the mating surface with lube...they are very delicate.

For a built motor, I now recommend a high quality crank damper!! Get an Innovators West or ATI.
Do not put an OEM damper on a built motor!! The damper is what dampens all the vibration from a motor...you want that motor to run as smooth as possible.

Oh and regarding the windage tray...if you have a few extra bucks, you could go with the 2013/14 GT500 oil pan kit. Comes with plastic windage tray/gasket (one piece), oil pump tube, and 7.0 quart pan.
You will have to verify pick up tube clearance. Everyone says its bolt-on...but mine was not.

Did I miss anything?

 

[AutoXRacer]

I went with the Livernois springs with my cams and I have been very happy with them. If you are going to use limiters, I highly recommend not getting the Comp limiters, go with the Livernois limiters instead. The best deal was the FRPP replacement timing chains and phaser kit but they just greatly upped the price. I agree about the TSS gears, that's a no brainer, especially with a blower car.

Whats wrong with the Comp Cams limiters?

My second set of cams were 127450's which worked much better. I did have limiters and the heads I used had bigger valves and upgraded springs.

You used limiters? Are you sure? Those 127450s require pretty strong springs which will over power the VCT...so limiters would not even work. I had to lock mine out.

Windage Tray? I'd recommend changing to the FRPP 8.5qt Oil Pan Kit which includes a windage tray and new bolts. About $180 from Tasca.

In our motors, this pan only takes 7.0 quarts.

 

[retfr8flyr]

Whats wrong with the Comp Cams limiters?

This is why I would not use Comp limiters. http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92049

 

[BadPiggy]

In our motors, this pan only takes 7.0 quarts.

I called it what it's labeled as...8.5qt Kit.

Also, the FRPP timing kit is no longer stupid cheap, $280 bucks. It is now well over $400 for the kit and Steve has stated this in a thread around here, somewhere.

I absolutely disagree with your opinion of the billet oil pump gearset. That $300 is money WELL spent. The motors you speak of that are making 800+ on the stock GT500 oil pump assembly are totally different motors. The gearset is cheap insurance.

 

[AutoXRacer]

This is why I would not use Comp limiters. http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92049

Yeah, I would not blame the Comp Cams limiters for that failure. Seems like an installation issue:

I also highly recommend not getting the Comp Cam limiters if anyone is planning on using them. Not unless you can find the correct style bolt that is 1/8 inch longer.
Earl

The statement above leads me to think incorrect fasteners were used.
In addition, I think he might have used too strong of valve springs for the limiters. Limiters are only to be used with slightly firmer than stock springs for mild street cams with less than 0.50" lift.

Just my take on it.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I absolutely disagree with your opinion of the billet oil pump gearset. That $300 is money WELL spent. The motors you speak of that are making 800+ on the stock GT500 oil pump assembly are totally different motors. The gearset is cheap insurance.

That is true about the different motor platform... But I was under the impression that with the stronger steel backing plate that the rotors/gears where no longer prone to failing since the back-plate is no longer flexing under high pressures/RPMs. I have also wondered if the whole oil pump failures were also contributed due to poor internal engine balancing.

As BadPiggy says, gears to ensure 100% no gear related failures.

 

[eighty6gt]

If the crank flexes, what happens to the gears vs. the oil pump housing?

 

[AutoXRacer]

If the crank flexes, what happens to the gears vs. the oil pump housing?

Should the crank be flexing?

 

[eighty6gt]

Ideally not much, but it does. Accessory loads, tensioner whipping around on the blower belt drive. Little bit of twist from the front rods.

 

[eighty6gt]

I remember them breaking snouts off of the Ford GT's crank. Added a fillet to address the stress riser.