Do I need the Stock tune?

[Monkeyporn]

Uh I known I live in a State that requires Emission's testing so every two years I have to remove the race tune and install my stock tune just to pass emission's then reinstall the race tune....pain in the ass I known but its the only way I can stay legal.

 

[Juice]

There is no reason you have to do that, unless any non stock tune fails smog in your state.

 

[Monkeyporn]

There is no reason you have to do that, unless any non stock tune fails smog in your state.

My tune will fail emissions from what I was told when I bought the car. See the Tune and the tuner came with the car and the dude told you have to remove this tune when going for emissions or you won't pass.

 

[GlassTop09]

My tune will fail emissions from what I was told when I bought the car. See the Tune and the tuner came with the car and the dude told you have to remove this tune when going for emissions or you won't pass.

Very interesting……… I’m assuming that your engine is still NA if you’re using the stock tune for emissions. If this is so, then it’s even more interesting as to why you need to swap tunes for this (outside of the usual running FFE so no rear O2 sensors active). I’m just curious to understand why……….from what I’ve seen/learned this don’t make sense to me but that’s just me……….

 

[RED09GT]

To the OP, use the X4 to pull the tune off the ECU (save the "Stock" tune), put another random canned tune in. Save the tune off the device on your computer and rename it. Then go back to the car and chose "return to stock" and it will put the current tune back in.

Then you can plug the X2 and then do the "return to stock" again and you'll have the factory-or last dealer revision in the car.

Upload the renamed tune from your computer onto your X4 and tune you car with it and it should pull the current tune off the car and save it as the stock tune.

I did this when I upgraded from an X3 to an X4 with a Lito tune and have not had any issues so far.

 

[Monkeyporn]

Very interesting……… I’m assuming that your engine is still NA if you’re using the stock tune for emissions. If this is so, then it’s even more interesting as to why you need to swap tunes for this (outside of the usual running FFE so no rear O2 sensors active). I’m just curious to understand why……….from what I’ve seen/learned this don’t make sense to me but that’s just me……….

Yes Still NA sorry not sure what a running FFE is ?

 

[Juice]

To the OP, use the X4 to pull the tune off the ECU (save the "Stock" tune), put another random canned tune in. Save the tune off the device on your computer and rename it. Then go back to the car and chose "return to stock" and it will put the current tune back in.

Then you can plug the X2 and then do the "return to stock" again and you'll have the factory-or last dealer revision in the car.

Upload the renamed tune from your computer onto your X4 and tune you car with it and it should pull the current tune off the car and save it as the stock tune.

I did this when I upgraded from an X3 to an X4 with a Lito tune and have not had any issues so far.

You can save the "stock read" from the x4, but there is nothing you can do with it. It is not in a usable format.

 

[GlassTop09]

Yes Still NA sorry not sure what a running FFE is ?

I used “FFE….free flowing exhaust” as a metaphor for O/R mid pipe or cat less exhaust which tuners will usually turn off rear O2 sensors in tune (but some leave the sensors active & use CEL eliminators to trick PCM into thinking cats are still in use…..).
From my read of your post, I assume your car still has cats installed so I’m curious as to why you need to swap tunes for emissions…… This to me says there’s something off in your race tune that’s defeating the CL strategies to allow it to pass emissions that the stock tune still has enabled (both tunes are using the same component setup/configuration). Question, have you ever tried running the race tune to test this out to see if what you were told was true? I have a hunch the rear O2 sensors in race tune are disabled but are enabled in stock tune. For me, the question is why…..why the race tune can’t pass but the stock tune can pass using the exact same setup when the only difference between them is essentially fuel oct rating thus some ignition timing & VCT settings mostly for peak HP/TQ but emissions is strictly a CL operation in PCM which has nothing to do w/ WOT……so unless you have a physical component (EVAP, IM design, O2 sensor issues, bad cats, excess vacuum leaks, exhaust leaks around front O2 sensors, highly aggressive cam profiles, etc) that causes emission failures (which would even cause the stock tune to fail), something is wrong in race tune’s CL strategy causing the emission failures. This is my thinking on your situation (also have been thru this myself thus have some data to corroborate my thoughts).
But to get back to the OP, I would do what Juice suggested to get all back to stock setup, verify all systems fixed & operating properly then proceed to install any mods from there on. Hate to say this but sometimes this is the chance we take when buying used Stangs that have been modded prior.

 

[Juice]

I run both, dedicate "race" tune for track and full emission capable tunes on the street. I have yet to definitely identify any advantage of a race tune where rear O2s and Fore-aft fuel control is disabled vs them enabled.
I actually built a race tune from scratch for next week's Summit event. Well, it was a no start, crank only issue. But thats another story.... Lol

 

[Monkeyporn]

I used “FFE….free flowing exhaust” as a metaphor for O/R mid pipe or cat less exhaust which tuners will usually turn off rear O2 sensors in tune (but some leave the sensors active & use CEL eliminators to trick PCM into thinking cats are still in use…..).
From my read of your post, I assume your car still has cats installed so I’m curious as to why you need to swap tunes for emissions…… This to me says there’s something off in your race tune that’s defeating the CL strategies to allow it to pass emissions that the stock tune still has enabled (both tunes are using the same component setup/configuration). Question, have you ever tried running the race tune to test this out to see if what you were told was true? I have a hunch the rear O2 sensors in race tune are disabled but are enabled in stock tune. For me, the question is why…..why the race tune can’t pass but the stock tune can pass using the exact same setup when the only difference between them is essentially fuel oct rating thus some ignition timing & VCT settings mostly for peak HP/TQ but emissions is strictly a CL operation in PCM which has nothing to do w/ WOT……so unless you have a physical component (EVAP, IM design, O2 sensor issues, bad cats, excess vacuum leaks, exhaust leaks around front O2 sensors, highly aggressive cam profiles, etc) that causes emission failures (which would even cause the stock tune to fail), something is wrong in race tune’s CL strategy causing the emission failures. This is my thinking on your situation (also have been thru this myself thus have some data to corroborate my thoughts).
But to get back to the OP, I would do what Juice suggested to get all back to stock setup, verify all systems fixed & operating properly then proceed to install any mods from there on. Hate to say this but sometimes this is the chance we take when buying used Stangs that have been modded prior.

WOW well it's obvious you known much more about this then I as for what you said Yes it's N/A and Yes it has cats and except for the tune the engine is stock. I don't known if the tune is flawed or not and No I haven't tried going through emissions without removing the tune. I don't known anything about tuning and if I had a way of sending it to you I would just so you could pick it apart and satisfy your curiosity.

 

[GlassTop09]

WOW well it's obvious you known much more about this then I as for what you said Yes it's N/A and Yes it has cats and except for the tune the engine is stock. I don't known if the tune is flawed or not and No I haven't tried going through emissions without removing the tune. I don't known anything about tuning and if I had a way of sending it to you I would just so you could pick it apart and satisfy your curiosity.

Just so you know if you didn't already, you can check this yourself if you have a general OBDII scan tool that can display live data & Mode 6 PCM Self-Check data (most any general OBDII scan tool nowadays in the $40.00-$70.00 range can do this or use a phone app like Torque\Forscan w\ a BT OBDII dongle) w\o having to go thru an emissions certification shop.

The live data (O2SLOC PID) can show you if the rear O2 sensors are enabled\active or disabled\inactive in the tune (enabled....B1S12, B2S12; disabled.....B1S1, B2S1) & thru Mode 6 Catalyst checks (cat CE ratio results) will show actual calc'd cat CE ratio test result numbers if cats are passing\failing vs the CE ratio thresholds.

This is how I caught BAMA lying about not turning off rear O2 sensors in a tune I ordered for my car w\ cats (actually listed that I had cats installed) back in the day by using my Foxwell NT301 scan tool's live data.......when they told me that they didn't disable them (still have the emails from all that to this day) while I was looking at my scan tool display showing the rear O2 sensors disabled in the tune w\ cats installed.

 

[Monkeyporn]

Just so you know if you didn't already, you can check this yourself if you have a general OBDII scan tool that can display live data & Mode 6 PCM Self-Check data (most any general OBDII scan tool nowadays in the $40.00-$70.00 range can do this or use a phone app like Torque\Forscan w\ a BT OBDII dongle) w\o having to go thru an emissions certification shop.


The live data (O2SLOC PID) can show you if the rear O2 sensors are enabled\active or disabled\inactive in the tune (enabled....B1S12, B2S12; disabled.....B1S1, B2S1) & thru Mode 6 Catalyst checks (cat CE ratio results) will show actual calc'd cat CE ratio test result numbers if cats are passing\failing vs the CE ratio thresholds.

This is how I caught BAMA lying about not turning off rear O2 sensors in a tune I ordered for my car w\ cats (actually listed that I had cats installed) back in the day by using my Foxwell NT301 scan tool's live data.......when they told me that they didn't disable them (still have the emails from all that to this day) while I was looking at my scan tool display showing the rear O2 sensors disabled in the tune w\ cats installed.

That all sounds very interesting but I don't known if my scan tool that came with the car will do any of that it's an old SCT and I image its functions are very limited. I've also wondered if being so old I'm able to connect it to my computer and maybe update it with a new tune. I have plans for my car that include 3.73 gears, catch can , 62mm throttle body so I'm sure those changes will need to be included in a new tune. I already have different size tire on the car and a functioning ram air hood which I think should be included in the tune.....Thoughts ?

 

[Juice]

That all sounds very interesting but I don't known if my scan tool that came with the car will do any of that it's an old SCT and I image its functions are very limited. I've also wondered if being so old I'm able to connect it to my computer and maybe update it with a new tune. I have plans for my car that include 3.73 gears, catch can , 62mm throttle body so I'm sure those changes will need to be included in a new tune. I already have different size tire on the car and a functioning ram air hood which I think should be included in the tune.....Thoughts ?

Gear change should not require a new tune, unless it is locked. If the tune is not locked, just flash it again, but adjust gear ratio and tire size as needed.
Throttle body may need an updated tune.

 

[Monkeyporn]

Gear change should not require a new tune, unless it is locked. If the tune is not locked, just flash it again, but adjust gear ratio and tire size as needed.
Throttle body may need an updated tune.

Hey Your post got me curious so I went and dug out the SCT tuner I have and it turns out its an Xcaliber 2 so tell me do you have any exp with it and what it is capable of doing ? Thanks Brandi

 

[Juice]

I do not have any experience with that device.

It would be under something like "adjustable parameters" of the custom tune. You would make any changes before you actually load/flash the tune.

 

[GlassTop09]

That all sounds very interesting but I don't known if my scan tool that came with the car will do any of that it's an old SCT and I image its functions are very limited. I've also wondered if being so old I'm able to connect it to my computer and maybe update it with a new tune. I have plans for my car that include 3.73 gears, catch can , 62mm throttle body so I'm sure those changes will need to be included in a new tune. I already have different size tire on the car and a functioning ram air hood which I think should be included in the tune.....Thoughts ?

This is why I typed to use a general OBDII scan tool\Torque or Forscan app w\ BT dongle for this instead of a tuner device........been there, done that. Not that a tuner device can't be set up to do this but we don't have all the tune PID addresses to program into the datalogging file to load into the tuner device to allow it to access all the necessary PCM PID's thru OBDII but most all general OBDII scan tools\softwares nowadays have all this & much more programmed into them by default so for a DIY'er these are the way to go for diagnostics then use your tuner device for what it was primarily meant to do.......load\swap\adjust tune files.

(warning...long posting)

Now on the advent of running a 62mm TB, these can be set up to run w\ your tune as is (also been there, done that w\ both a BBK #1763 62mm & a Ford Performance 62mm) but you will not get the most from it (throttle tip-in response\acceleration performance is the primary gain w\ top end airflow being secondary) w\o the ETC predictive throttle angle (PTA) & effective area (EA) mapping updated in tune file that matches the stock 55mm TB to match the 62mm TB's increased ID to butterfly plate OD area so the PCM can accurately calc this area change off TB TPS angle to match the MAF air load calc's created from it to then accurately calc the ETC actual engine TQ output to match the desired APP DD TQ request mapping (also been here, done that). Some tuners don't mess w\ this (as I found in my car's tune file that was dyno tuned by another tuner w\ a tune file that I got from BAMA in which they also didn't do this.....but both knew that I had a 62mm TB installed prior tuning\tune request) as it can be a PITA to set up correctly & not incur excessive + IPC TQ errors but in order to get the most out of these 62mm TB's this is imperative that it gets done, otherwise you're being short-changed on total overall performance gains expected from the 62mm TB install (throttle tip-in response\acceleration performance is what most actually feel\experience from tuning outside of peak HP\TQ) to justify it's expense\cost (better off to not buy\install if tuners won't actually do the proper tuning it needs).

Just know this......the PTA\EA of an OEM 55mm TB is 12.8% smaller than the same PTA\EA of a 62mm TB so the general engine TQ output is approx 12.8% lower than it would be during accel (ETC TB PTA\EA mapping from TPS angle air load calcs will be off--lower--compared to the actual MAF air load calcs created from the same TB TPS angle) thus creates a - IPC TQ error (tells PCM there's more MAF air load than it should be) so the PCM will fall back to the ETC TB PTA\EA mapping w\ TB TPS angle air load calc & close the TB TPS angle until the actual MAF air load corrects to the ETC TQ modeling air load calc) so in essence the 62mm TB installed will be acting\controlling like the 55mm TB it replaced in PCM TQ modeling if this ETC TB PTA\EA mapping isn't updated in the tune (why most say 62mm TB's don't gain anything......what most won't tell you is why it won't....it ain't got nothing to do w\ the TB itself.....all in the tune....especially dependent on the tuner's abilities who is doing the tuning). - IPC TQ errors the PCM can handle (actual engine TQ output is lower than desired PCM TQ output during accel thus the PCM still has full throttle control over engine).....it's the + IPC TQ errors that are dangerous (actual engine TQ output is greater than desired PCM TQ output during accel....ETC TQ model air load calc off TB TPS angle is greater than actual MAF air load calc off same TB TPS angle so ETC will open the TB TPS angle more so the MAF air load calc will correct to the ETC TQ modeling air load calc) & if the spread is wide enough the PCM can lose control of the engine RPM's thus creating an engine runaway situation......why the IPC TQ Error Max setting in tune file is important that it stays set at the stock setting of 25,000 or lower to allow the PCM to quickly go into Limp Mode (the wrench light.....fully shuts the TB & retards spark timing\retards VCT timing & cuts injectors off if needed to cut engine TQ output to prevent engine runaway off ETC control loss.....why engine falls on its face when Limp Mode is enabled) & it is this reason why some tuners won't touch updating the TB PTA\EA mapping in tune to match the 62mm TB's PTA\EA sizing which now makes buying 1 of these TB's a question of overall value......it will highly depend on the tuner you choose as to whether you'll get all of its value properly & safely to justify its expense, not just the cost of the 62mm TB itself.

I'm posting all this as I don't have a dog in this hunt (meaning I don't tune for a living......only recently started to tune on my own stuff & I'm retired but I also put the time\effort in prior to learn what\how to do it) but the truth of all this needs to be known IMHO so folks can make better decisions as to whether they want to really buy 1 of these 62mm TB's or not & go thru all what it takes to fully optimize its use. Finding the right tuner who has no issue doing this tuning properly will be your biggest challenge & if you do find 1 that can do this right, be prepared to pay for it.

Another reason why Lito's name is mentioned so often as the go to 3V tuner.........most likely he's already crossed this bridge so is second nature to him to do it (probably already has the proper PTA\EA mapping data vetted for a 62mm TB in hand by now so is already loaded in a base tune file copy when needed).

Hope this helps.

Note: 1 of these days, 1 of my tuning goals is to go thru the tuning process & properly model this TB PTA\EA mapping data for a 62mm TB to have on hand since from all I've found\seen to date no one has done this.....not even Ford.....for a 62mm TB & posted it for public use. I used the TB PTA\EA mapping for an OEM Ford 60mm TB (pulled from a 2010 GT500 stock tune file so verified actual Ford tuned data to match the std Ford tuned ETC control settings in my tune file thus accurate so only cut & paste was necessary) to better rep my 62mm TB in my tune file's ETC TQ modeling (only 3.3% smaller instead of being 12.8% smaller so recouped 74% of the total TQ modeling gains lost thru using the OEM 55mm TB's PTA\EA data mapping w\o creating any excessive + IPC TQ errors.....actually dropped from <1,000 to <75 thru datalogging to test the new TB mapping)......you WILL feel\notice the throttle tip-in response\acceleration performance increase from the more accurate overall ETC TQ modeling to better match up to the actual calc'd MAF air load thru TB off the APP DD TQ request mapping (the mapping that the accel pedal tells the PCM's ETC TQ modeling what you the driver requests w\ your right foot). Not fully accurate\correct yet but is WAY BETTER than where it was (may also just leave well enough alone when it's all said & done as this ETC TQ tuning is where a dyno is the far & away safer method of going about doing this & I don't have access to 1.....just to make up for a 3.3% smaller TB PTA\EA difference).

Ok I'm done.....................