Drop Spindles?

[Cookiemonster]

http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=280&products_id=676

would these be worth takin a look at?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=280&products_id=676

would these be worth takin a look at?

Some of the west-coast AI S197s were running dropped spindles and had failures, but I'm not positive what brand they were. I'll see if I can find out and post up tomorrow.

 

[Sam Strano]

I think that's a huge, huge risk. The company doesn't do turning (read their about us, mostly drag stuff). But what's more, I've seen OEM designed spindles fail (with help mind you). I really, really, really wouldn't trust anything unknown.

 

[Cookiemonster]

Ya I saw that the focus on drag stuff. dang.

 

[DusterRT]

The OEM spindle is noted as a weak point by Griggs apparently. Some of the flex in the video can be written off as bushing compliance though. Anyway I think the Racecraft spindles would be kinda risky at best..as mentioned they're primarily drag racing oriented.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Yeah, the failed parts were Racecraft pieces... There's a long thread about it on CC.com, but the gist is that there were two apparent failures, but nobody sent info to the manufacturer as to the exact failure mode, so, yadda(cubed).

I'm with Sam on this one... The stock pieces are marginal, and I wouldn't necessarily trust a hacked-up/rewelded stock piece.

Also, just for the sake of discussion, I think drop spindles are probably the best way to "lower" the car up front, but if you do the same amount in the rear (2"+), you'll be out of suspension travel in a heartbeat, unless you just completely re-engineer the rear suspension from scratch. Think notched frame rails, raised 3rd link mount, and relocated LCA axle mounts at a minimum.

 

[DusterRT]

Dave, I just breezed through the CC.com Racecraft thread, but it seems like they're talking SN95 and not S197. If you take a look at this product page, you'll see they offer a "Road Racing" upgrade, something mentioned as new late in the thread; the S197 product page lacks this option.

http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=54_60&products_id=69

Our Road Race option consists of extra Bracing & larger welds for additional strength suitable for road racing. Also when purchasing the Road Race Spindles they do not come powder coated.

 

[ArizonaGT]

I wouldn't put my life on the line with that stuff if they've already had failures, even if it were an SN95 and not an S197. That indicates there is a problem with their design methodology.

If you want different front spindles, get a Griggs setup or A47 SLA--no worries there, just $$$$

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Oh, I did read through the thread... For me, it boiled down to NO destructive testing, NO specific weld methodology or inspection, and NO FEA done on the part. It also appears that there was NO beta-level testing done, just build it and market it. I give them kudos for trying to get their hands on the failed part to see what went wrong, but honestly, it's not that hard to set up a test jig in their shop, apply torque to the part, and note how much was necessary before something went "boom." Compare that to what the stock piece took in the same failure mode, and you'll have a pretty good idea of how strong (or not) the part is.

Also, beta-testing is pretty much the norm, as well. Make a few sets, give them to some friendly racers, let them beat on them for a while, and then take them back, analyze any failures, magnaflux the hell out of the used parts and see what you have. THEN put them on the market. The fact is that there are many, many more SN95 and Fox chassis cars out on track than S197s, so I would expect to see many more SN95/Fox parts fail, numerically. If the S197 spindles are designed and produced the same way as the SN95/Fox parts, then it's just a matter of time before the failure numbers catch up in terms of ratio.

I'll also stick by my earlier question: IF you drop the front, how do you do the rear without completely re-working the suspension? If you're going to triangulate a new 3rd link mounting point, then why not go SLA up front? Most of the rule sets that I've read through either restrict to stock mount points, or make them all completely free. There's no reason to HAVE to run strut front ends if you're allowed to do a tube-chassis out back, at least not from any series where I've read the tech rules.

 

[Natural1]

The OEM spindle is noted as a weak point by Griggs apparently. Some of the flex in the video can be written off as bushing compliance though. Anyway I think the Racecraft spindles would be kinda risky at best..as mentioned they're primarily drag racing oriented.

I agree somewhat..

I was interested in the test and the idea of dropped spindles, but after watching the video (10 or so times), I'm kinda scratching my head at their test.... I'd say almost all of this is bushing compliance, with the exception of the deflection on the strut to spindle mount. They have the dial indicator mounted to the strut and contacting the tie rod end stud and this is all on a stock front suspension. That cast spindle is not going to flex .090", I don't care what you do. It may flex .020" and then snap, but it is obvious that the strut to spindle area is flexing (on the strut itself) and the control arm bushings and ball joint, are allowing the bottom of the spindle to kick out and give that reading. I am sure the weak strut mounts are allowing some deflection as well. A few thou of deflection up top will translate to a whole bunch 18" lower. Griggs produces great products, but this is a gimmick driven test at best. All it proves, is that the stock bushings are poor and that the strut to spindle bracketry needs to be stronger/reinforced.

 

[DusterRT]

Agreed in all respects, and while it could have been done better..they certainly could have done worse handling the situation. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't the S197 part that failed..and I think there was only one confirmed failure with a rumored second. I have no connections to Racecraft, and at a 2" drop I have no interest in the product..I'm just feeding the fire I guess. If I were interested, I would contact them about "upgrades" for the spindle like the older ones can be had with now.

 

[Natural1]

Agreed, when I saw the 2" I lost interest as well. You would think that someone would introduce something proper to the market.

 

[DusterRT]

I agree somewhat..

I'd say almost all of this is bushing compliance, with the exception of the deflection on the strut to spindle mount.

I won't argue that after re-watching a few times, the spindle flexes very little if at all (could just be from everything else moving around). It's just a bit unscientific to say the least. There have been failures of OEM spindles at the strut mount, but it's hard to say what the cause was; weak spindle or improper clamping load at the mount from strut bolts that have loosened (I'd lean towards the latter).

 

[DusterRT]

Agreed, when I saw the 2" I lost interest as well. You would think that someone would introduce something proper to the market.

Well, this probably won't be anywhere near the Racecraft price point but...

http://cortexracing.com/downloads/brochures/Spindle Brochure_v1.pdf

 

[Sam Strano]

I won't argue that after re-watching a few times, the spindle flexes very little if at all (could just be from everything else moving around). It's just a bit unscientific to say the least. There have been failures of OEM spindles at the strut mount, but it's hard to say what the cause was; weak spindle or improper clamping load at the mount from strut bolts that have loosened (I'd lean towards the latter).

I pretty much know it's the latter. I've never failed one, in fact only two have broken I'm aware of.... and both cars had loose lower strut bolts (which is why I refuse to use those cheap tiny camber bolts fwiw).

 

[Sleeper_08]

Ford made a running production change of the strut to spindle bolts from coarse thread to fine thread and they made some changes on the tolerances/machining to get a better clamping action. This was discussed at length in this and other forums after some failures of the stock spindles under severe duty,i.e. race conditions.

Part numbers are W714652 S439 for the bolts, and W714653 S900 for the nuts if anyone is interested.

 

[Cookiemonster]

Well, this probably won't be anywhere near the Racecraft price point but...

http://cortexracing.com/downloads/brochures/Spindle Brochure_v1.pdf

I guess if your gunna go all out.. That thing looks like it would survive a road side bomb..

 

[ArizonaGT]

Part numbers are W714652 S439 for the bolts, and W714653 S900 for the nuts if anyone is interested.

Good info, thank you sir!

 

[Sleeper_08]

Good info, thank you sir!

FYI - The torque spec on the fine thread bolts is 166 ft lb.

Glad to be able to help.

 

[matt06]

this being a few year old thread does anyone have any recent experience with these quality wise. looking at getting a set to use with a set of strange drag brakes.