few things im wondering about

[pieperz06]

so i went to a PCA DE event last Saturday and i ran in to a few problems.

1. i ground down my rotors a bunch
2. i went through my front HALK HPS's in like less than 2 months only doing like 1 or 2 autocross on them with DD
3. i think i need a cheaper way to keep my brakes going i cant aford to get new rotors and pads on the front every 2 months.
4. i also boiled my fluid i think because it was all over the top of the brake fluid container and it was clean before the event. so i think i need better fluid.

what do you all think i should do about this and is it normal to go through pads so quickly i swear i had half of my pads left when i started the event and then on my last run i had nothing left.


on a nother note i rode in a Porsche gt3rs around the circuit and all i can say is wow it had slicks on it and man was it fast. it was about 10 mph faster than i was on the straight going in to a hairpin. i had never ridden in a nice car like that on a track best i had done is a c5 on an auto x course.

i will say that i was definitely able to realize where the weak point were in my car from doing a higher speed track than autox. i also got my D-specs dialed in to a nice netural state which was fun, my car felt way different in the corners with them on more so than i had thought. i cant wait till i go next month(if i get my brakes fixed up)


thoughts.....on any of this

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Ah, Grasshopper! Welcome to the down side of open-tracking the car...

First off, the Hawk HPS is just seriously NOT the right pad for tracking the car. Way too low of a MOT (Maximum Operating Temprature).

Brakes for the S197 are actually a pretty simple formula, when it all boils down (pun intended).

First, call New Take Off and order TWO new sets of rotors. They're about $40 a set, so no huge expense. Second, contact your favorite vendor and order up some brake pads for the track. For novice-level, I like to recommend Hawk HT-10 up front and HP-Plus in back. If you're a bit more advanced, try DTC-60/HT-10 or DTC-70/DTC-60, but be aware that they will need some temp in them to work properly, and if you're not going fast enough, and braking hard enough, they will not work up to expectations. Now, the reason that I suggest two sets of front rotors is so that you can dedicate a set to the track pads, and another for the street pads. For street pads, I have no recommendations, but any decent set will work. Next, flush the fluid out completely, and replace with a GOOD DOT-4 or DOT-5.1 classification fluid. I like the Motul RBF-600, but it's a bit pricy. Also look for ATE Super-Gold (Super-Blue stains the master cylinder reservoir), it's another excellent fluid. Plan on bleeding the brakes before each day on track, and doing a complete flush every six months. Last, if you feel yourself getting hooked, or if you go to DTC-level pads because you need them, brake ducts! They really do work. Braided lines are nice, but by no means a requirement. Oh, and don't forget to turn off the traction control, it'll eat through your rear brakes in nothing flat when you start getting aggressive out on the track, and at least for my taste, is way too intrusive of a "nanny."

 

[pieperz06]

Ah, Grasshopper! Welcome to the down side of open-tracking the car...

First off, the Hawk HPS is just seriously NOT the right pad for tracking the car. Way too low of a MOT (Maximum Operating Temprature).

Brakes for the S197 are actually a pretty simple formula, when it all boils down (pun intended).

First, call New Take Off and order TWO new sets of rotors. They're about $40 a set, so no huge expense. Second, contact your favorite vendor and order up some brake pads for the track. For novice-level, I like to recommend Hawk HT-10 up front and HP-Plus in back. If you're a bit more advanced, try DTC-60/HT-10 or DTC-70/DTC-60, but be aware that they will need some temp in them to work properly, and if you're not going fast enough, and braking hard enough, they will not work up to expectations. Now, the reason that I suggest two sets of front rotors is so that you can dedicate a set to the track pads, and another for the street pads. For street pads, I have no recommendations, but any decent set will work. Next, flush the fluid out completely, and replace with a GOOD DOT-4 or DOT-5.1 classification fluid. I like the Motul RBF-600, but it's a bit pricy. Also look for ATE Super-Gold (Super-Blue stains the master cylinder reservoir), it's another excellent fluid. Plan on bleeding the brakes before each day on track, and doing a complete flush every six months. Last, if you feel yourself getting hooked, or if you go to DTC-level pads because you need them, brake ducts! They really do work. Braided lines are nice, but by no means a requirement. Oh, and don't forget to turn off the traction control, it'll eat through your rear brakes in nothing flat when you start getting aggressive out on the track, and at least for my taste, is way too intrusive of a "nanny."

i think im breaking hard enough that is what i was primaraly working on while at the track i first got down my healtow dowshift on my second run of the track and then i was just wanting to get my brakeing better. if my brakeing is above the novice level i dont know but i was definatly out brakeing the other guys there and i was passing porches left and right which was fun. i started off the day as the guy in the mustang that didn't know how to turn corners and by the end of the day ppl were wondering how long i had been driving cuz i kept passing them and they couldn't figure out why. my GF who was there herd my instructor talking to ppl about my driveling and he was saying how smothe of a driver i was and how i was going to be one of the faster drivers out there.

i have already ordered 2 sets of front rotors from new take off i did it the second i got home

what exactly doess what bleeding the brakes before the event do for me. that is what every one at the track told me to do but me not even know how to do so i didn't know why i needed to.

another thing i found out about my car is that my tires are much better than i thought where i autox has no grip at all and i was confuseing that with me having bad tires.

why would i need ducts for DTC lvl pads and as far as adding brake ducts i am planing on getting a roush front and using the bottom light things as the hole for the air.

 

[Sleeper_08]

For serious track work where your brakes are being used hard then a properly designed and installed front brake cooling duct system is very helpful. I use one Quantun but there are other good ones out there to choose from. Here is a link to the Quantum site

http://store.quantummotorsports.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_2_5_9

Just putting another hole in the fascia is not good enough.

 

[pcdrj]

Brakes ducts will make a dramatic improvement. Also, you can get GT500 Brembo take-offs very cheap (< $500) which is a much better setup. Stainless steel lines and like Dave said, brake fluid.

Last year I ran EBC Yellow pads which held up well. Went through two sets of pads all year and this is my second year on same front rotors. Rear rotors and pads last me about 3-4 track days.

http://www.agentfortyseven.com/S197/brakecooling.html
http://www.agentfortyseven.com/S197/lowergrill.html

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Brake ducts: Every time you get on the brakes to slow the car down, the ONLY thing you're doing is converting rotational energy (inertia) into heat. That's the way brakes work, and all that heat needs to be dissipated. With the stock brake setup (stock backing plates, no ducts), the heat buildup is left to dissipate to the ambient air, which is fairly inefficient. In the meantime, your screaming hot rotors are transferring more heat energy into the spindle (and bearings, and knuckle, and balljoint) , as well as into the pads (and the caliper and the pistons, and into the fluid). The rotor up front is vented to provide a larger surface area to dump heat, but with the stock setup, it's just passive radiation of heat.

If you add ducts, the forced air from the car zipping around the track is directed into the center of the rotor on the inside, through the vanes, and out the top, which dramatically increases the rate of heat loss in the rotor. That means cooler everything, which is all to the good! Just to give you a sense of scale, the Hawk HPS pads you chewed up have an operating temp range of ambient to around 750*F. The HT-10 that I recommended, though has an operating temp range of 300*-1300*! The DTC pads need at least 400* of heat to work "properly," but will go all the way up to 1600*F without fading or crumbling. When you have that much heat buildup from braking (think HARD and LATE braking), it becomes critical to get the heat out of the braking system, and that's where ducts can really pay benefit. Also, given that at least the three of us responding to this thread REGULARLY push brake temps in excess of 1000* on track (3500+lb car slowing from 100+ down to 45 or 50, seven to ten times every mile in around 300 feet!), you can see where the "street" compounds, designed for low temp operation with a fairly low MOT just won't work on a track. There are a couple of tracks that I run where I can overheat even the DTC compounds, and it requires a slightly different braking strategy.

Bleeding: Brake fluid is known as a "hygroscopic" material, and that means the it aggressively bonds with moisture. Motul RBF600 has a "dry" (new, fresh) boiling point of 595*F, but as you know, water boils at 212*F. As moisture is picked up by the fluid, the boiling point plummets, until a point where the heat transfer from the brakes into the fluid in the calipers exceeds the boiling point of the "contaminated" fluid, and it flashes into a gas (steam). Since the fluid is NOT compressible, but the gas is, that will give you the soft, spongy, sinking pedal you've probably felt at one point or another. This moisture uptake is why you want to flush the system at least every year, and with the race fluids, every six months. Motul is sold in sealed 1/2 liter bottles with nitrogen pumped in to ensure that it's fresh when you pop the seal...

Once you boil the fluid, as I said, the pedal will get all spongy and soft on you, and the only way to get a hard pedal back is to bleed off the boiled fluid. The older the fluid, the more quickly it will boil, so learning how to bleed the brakes is something every track addict should know.

The easiest way is to get a buddy to help! Start at the right-rear caliper, with the wheel off, and have your buddy pump the brake pedal 3-4 times and then hold pressure on it, and say "holding". Using a bleeder bottle with a hose over the nipple of the bleeder screw on top of the caliper, just crack the screw open until the fluid spurts out. Once the pedal goes to the floor, have your buddy say "down," and you close the bleeder, saying "closed." Your buddy then pumps the pedal a few times and holds, and you repeat the whole process until the fluid coming out of the caliper is bright and clean, with no bubbles. It may take up to 6 runs through. After every four cycles, top off the master cylinder, and do NOT let it run dry! After you've finished the right-rear, in order, go to the left rear, then the right front, then finally the left front. With experience, this will be about a 30 minute process, including jacking and wheel pulling. If you get the Brembo calipers, there are two bleed screws, and you will want to do the inboard screw first, then the outboard.

Just to give you an idea of how important bleeding is, when I do track days, I bleed before I go, then at lunch, and finally at the end of the day. Second day is just at lunch, and then when I get back home.

One other thing I did was replace all my bleeder screws with Earls SoloBleed screws. These are spring-loaded bleeders, and allow me to bleed by myself. They're around $12 a pair, and are money well spent if you wind up bleeding the car 40+ times a year...

 

[Sam Strano]

You should have never been running HPS's as track pads. But I've been running over 2 years on a set autoxing every weekend and street driving too... So it's the track that killed them (or you are just nuts).

I carry the entire Hawk line, including the track pads. HT-10 is normally where we start because the DTC stuff is more aggressive and can at times be more than people need.

ATE is great if you keep after it. If you want some truly amazing fluid that will lessen your need to bleed and flush all the time, then I recommend looking at Castrol SRF. It's not cheap, but is the gold standard for fluid. Yes, I have that as well as the ATE and other fluids too.

 

[Vapour Trails]

Also, you can get GT500 Brembo take-offs very cheap (< $500) which is a much better setup. Stainless steel lines and like Dave said, brake fluid.

Whereabouts? Found nothing that cheap so far.

All the issues discussed in this thread (lots of detail, thanks Dave..I hope you get paid by the word) make me leary of tracking my car. The expenses sound like they add up really fast.

 

[pieperz06]

You should have never been running HPS's as track pads. But I've been running over 2 years on a set autoxing every weekend and street driving too... So it's the track that killed them (or you are just nuts).

I carry the entire Hawk line, including the track pads. HT-10 is normally where we start because the DTC stuff is more aggressive and can at times be more than people need.

ATE is great if you keep after it. If you want some truly amazing fluid that will lessen your need to bleed and flush all the time, then I recommend looking at Castrol SRF. It's not cheap, but is the gold standard for fluid. Yes, I have that as well as the ATE and other fluids too.

yah when i got the pads i was manily doing autox. im thinking i may get another set of HPS's for DD and autox and then get another set of some thing more aggresive for track days.

 

[Stangmeister9]

pieperZ06,

Dan here, i drove the white GT this past weekend. it was good fun chasing you down and being chased by a fellow stanger. i did notice that your braking point began quite a bit sooner then did mine (running the QMS ducts, lines, fluid and HP+) i never did feel any fade, but could use some better initial bite. every thing that is posted in this thread is true. BUT, i think they fail to see "our" little problem...money! yes, i know we are in the wrong sport if money is an issue, but you can still run competively with the cheaper and street friendly hp+ pads. i have had about 3 events on the hp+ pads and ran the 1.4 track layout for the 1st time. the other two events were on the longer and faster 1.6 mile layout. sounds like u made it home o.k. hope to see you in February!

 

[pieperz06]

pieperZ06,

Dan here, i drove the white GT this past weekend. it was good fun chasing you down and being chased by a fellow stanger. i did notice that your braking point began quite a bit sooner then did mine (running the QMS ducts, lines, fluid and HP+) i never did feel any fade, but could use some better initial bite. every thing that is posted in this thread is true. BUT, i think they fail to see "our" little problem...money! yes, i know we are in the wrong sport if money is an issue, but you can still run competively with the cheaper and street friendly hp+ pads. i have had about 3 events on the hp+ pads and ran the 1.4 track layout for the 1st time. the other two events were on the longer and faster 1.6 mile layout. sounds like u made it home o.k. hope to see you in February!

glad to see you made it to s197 forum

and yah i made it home ok but i have like no brakes left

i just want a better brake set up that will last me longer

my braking points were much further in at the beginning but by the end of the day i was having to brake very early

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Oh, I agree, this is NOT the hobby for somebody that really needs to pinch pennies, BUT, I will respectfully disagree with the meister about HP+ pads. The MOT is only marginally higher than the HPS pads, and it's still far too low for track duty with the weight of our cars. Start with a set of HT-10 up front, and HP+ in back, with good fluid, and you will be MUCH happier. Brake ducts are a one-time investment that can virtually double the life of your pads and rotors, so it's some of the best money that can be spent as far as brake upgrades. Castrol SRF is KILLER fluid, but at $80 per liter, that can get expensive. Yes, the wet boiling point is significantly higher, which means it can handle more heat before you have to bleed it out, but IIRC it's just as aggressively hygroscopic as the other fluids, which means the change interval stays the same. I have all but set my brakes on fire before, and while I do bleed the RBF600 frequently, it still holds up, so I'm kind of on the fence about the SRF. I do want to try it personally, just to see how it holds up, and may just do that this season, but probably not at the start. I have enough other changes going on in the car to want to worry about one more variable.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

my braking points were much further in at the beginning but by the end of the day i was having to brake very early

And that, right there, is a perfect description of pad fade, assuming that the pedal was high and firm. That means you exceeded the MOT of the pad compound, and were probably spitting out chunks of brake pad every time you hit the pedal. HT-10/HP+, trust me...

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Speed Bleeder (#SB1010S - same part number for front and rear calipers) and a Bleeder Bottle allows you to bleed your brakes by yourself at the track. ATE DOT 4 brake fluid (Super Blue or Gold) is probably the best deal out there. Motul RBF-600 is expensive, but it's the best DOT 4 that I'm aware of (I haven't tried Castrol SRF yet). I think Ford sells a DOT 4 fluid too. You could use a DOT 5.1 also a Polyalkylene Glycol Ether based fluid, but DO NOT confuse it with DOT 5, a silicione based fluid, which you don't want to use.

You've heard it before - brake cooling ducts. I went with the Agent 47 setup, but its pricey. The Quantum Motorsports setup can be had for a reasonable price. Hawk brake pads (I use the DTC 70/60 pads) are outstanding. If you're pinching pennies, try the EBC YellowStuff (or soon to be released, BlueStuff). Check out Carbotech pads too. The OEM rotors are really the best ones to use for the road courses - avoid drilled rotors, they will crack, and the extra cost for slotted rotors aren't really necessary. Mike

 

[Sleeper_08]

Also if you decide to go with the GT500 brakes make sure your wheels clear them. The easiest way to find out is if they sell exactly the same wheel for a GT500.

I'm switching to Carbotech XP10 front and XP8 rear this season. Tried EBC Yellowstuff last year but really melted the back ones and even the fronts melted a little bit. Then switched to HP+ for the rest of the season and they lasted 5 events. However by the end of the season I was going through the corners faster and so was not using the brtakes so much

 

[Stangmeister9]

Sleeper08, that is a good point you made, trust in the car and its limits to get you throught the corners (assuming you got some good threads to keep you planted).

 

[Sleeper_08]

At the start of last season I made the most effective purchase to date for improving my lap times. I bought a MaxQData data logger and then had my brother drive my car at Mosport. He has over 10,000 laps at Mosport and quickly set a benchmark for me to meet. His time was 1:42 and by the end of the season I got down to a 1:48.

This was done by comparing my data to his and getting my corner entry speeds nearer his, i.e. not braking so much. Because the data showed me what the car could do I had the confidence to go much faster than before. I was also "calibrating" my posterior to the data results and thus getting more confidence.

As long as we've hijacked the thread I might as well post a video of my best laps from the end of the season with the data

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYgjaztqFdw

 

[Random Asshole]

Brakes ducts will make a dramatic improvement. Also, you can get GT500 Brembo take-offs very cheap (< $500)

Whereabouts? Found nothing that cheap so far.

Please do tell. I know Dex has gotten people sets in the past, but that was quite a while ago.

 

[pieperz06]

Please do tell. I know Dex has gotten people sets in the past, but that was quite a while ago.

yah gt500 brakes dont come up to much any more

also what is the difference in pad life of the DTC-60/HT-10 or DTC-70/DTC-60 compared to each other and how long is that actual length if i only use them at the event

 

[pcdrj]

Whereabouts? Found nothing that cheap so far.

All the issues discussed in this thread (lots of detail, thanks Dave..I hope you get paid by the word) make me leary of tracking my car. The expenses sound like they add up really fast.

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26558&highlight=brakes