gt500 pump and stacking heat exchangers part deux

[rojizostang]

Some may remember I had a thread concerning 13/14 gt500 pump wiring, and another regarding the viability of stacking heat exchangers. After getting all the parts together, this afternoon I tackled tearing down the heat exchanger/pump system on my '13 Roush TVS supercharged 5.0 f150. It took probably 3 hours to drain it, tear everything out and start over, including adding a new heat exchanger and the gt500 pump.

The old system consisted of the standard bosch pump, the standard lower heat exchanger and the additional upper heat exchanger that Roush sells as an upgrade to the package. Also behind the upper heat exchanger I had previously installed a permacool slim 14" fan. All of this netted iat2f's that hovered/averaged perhaps 40 to 45 degrees above ambient, once the truck has been running for a while and everything is good and heat soaked.

The new system consists of the two original heat exchangers, plus one I picked up from ebay that's 22x6.75x2.75. I mounted this in front of the existing heat exchanger(sorry for the picture being sideways) in a position that would be most beneficial as it relates to the fan behind the existing upper heat exchanger. In addition the gt500 pump now replaces the bosch pump.

The result of all this? Not much. I may have reduced iat2f's by perhaps 5* on average, but that's about it. I didn't spend that much money, but I didn't net the results I was hoping for, either.

Someone in one of the other threads mentioned that he had some foaming after installing the gt500 pump. I can tell you, there is indeed some aeration of the coolant taking place with the gt500 pump. The movement of the coolant in the degas bottle is now quite violent, compared to previously with the bosch pump. Without the pump running, the coolant looks perfectly normal. With the pump running, it becomes milky looking. I removed a few drops of coolant and placed in the top of the bottle, and it was very obvious the coolant is being thrashed by the pump. The coolant sort of looks like soda pop when it fizzes down after pouring it in a glass.

I think this may contribute to not seeing the reduced iat2f's I was hoping for.

top left (sorry for the pic being sideways) is the new heat exchanger stacked in front of the original upper heat exchanger, top right is the existing lower and upper heat exchangers that remained from the old system, bottom left is the new gt500 pump, (which requires the axis to be mounted horizontally, as compared to the bosch which was vertical). bottom right is just a bonus picture whore opportunity.

So I spent probably close to $400 doing all this, and didn't net much. I think perhaps any considerable improvement would require replacing the intake manifold/intercooler arrangement with something similar to a DOB kit. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to spend that kind of coin to find out.

BTW I'm running a mixture of about 60% distilled water and 40% anti freeze.

Oh, I'm open to suggestions/criticisms, or any ideas to improve iat2f's, short of replacing the intercooler/manifold, thanks.

 

[rojizostang]

coolant aeration pics

well here we go....pretty good proof that the gt500 pump is aerating the coolant. the first pic was taken immediately after turning the motor and pump off. The second picture is taken after about 4 minutes of sitting with the motor off....just enough time for the bubbles to escape to coolant.

it's a bummer. I really think the system would probably do better with the bosch pump. the coolant with the bosch pump never turned milky. I paid $210 for the gt500 pump, and I think it was a step backwards, aside from all the work to switch everything around.

 

[Pentalab]

well here we go....pretty good proof that the gt500 pump is aerating the coolant. the first pic was taken immediately after turning the motor and pump off. The second picture is taken after about 4 minutes of sitting with the motor off....just enough time for the bubbles to escape to coolant.

it's a bummer. I really think the system would probably do better with the bosch pump. the coolant with the bosch pump never turned milky. I paid $210 for the gt500 pump, and I think it was a step backwards, aside from all the work to switch everything around.

How can the GT-500 pump be aerating the coolant? Did you vac fill it ?

 

[rojizostang]

How can the GT-500 pump be aerating the coolant? Did you vac fill it ?

I don't know....yes, I did vacuum fill it. But, I think that I ran just a little short of coolant right at the bottom of the bucket. It's possible there was a small air bubble, even with vacuum filling it. I've been driving the truck, and taking the cap off the degas bottle every time I turn the motor off, hoping the trapped air in the coolant will eventually bleed out of the system. It appears now after a couple of days that the coolant is starting to clear up. It doesn't appear to be as milky looking as when I first filled and ran the system.

If that isn't it, (speaking of having a small trapped air bubble) I have to wonder if the velocity/turbulence of the coolant in the degas bottle is causing some trapped air. It's much more turbulent in the bottle than when the bosch pump was in the system.

I know it doesn't have a leak as it held the vacuum perfectly before filling.

I read also on DOB's website that an "improperly designed degas bottle will cause the pump to cavitate". I'm not sure how...perhaps someone can clue me in. I assume cavitation will create bubbles.

Oh I also added about 8 oz of purple ice to the intercooler loop. I'm not aware of it having anti foaming properties, but maybe that also is helping to clear up the coolant.

 

[Pentalab]

On my Roush M90 setup, it goes.... (de-gas) - pump - HE - IC...then back to de-gas.

IE: the pump is after the de-gas. Most folks who use the 13/14 GT-500 pump say it looks like a jaccuzi inside the de-gas, with de-gas lid off. Not very scientific, but flow is def faster.

I used Redline water wetter instead of purple ice. ( 1/2 a container) Dunno if purple ice is prone to foaming..or not.
The plastic de-gas on the 2010 Roush M90 is double the size of the ones used on the 05-09 cars, which was a little thing. Still, the input is at the top, on the side..and the output of the de-gas is at the very bottom.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out where the aeration is coming from. You may just have some residual air in there...that's still working it's way out.

Ok, did your IAT's drop at all ?

 

[rojizostang]

the route of my IC loops is:

degas, upgraded upper roush HE, pump, new ebay HE, lower roush HE (that came with the blower kit), intercooler, and back to the degas bottle.

average temps are reduced by maybe 5* once everything is heat soaked. i'm hoping that once the residual air is purged, temps will improve. also I installed a tubular grill yesterday for a little more airflow, but it probably won't amount to much.

here's an interesting link also concerning painting intercoolers black. there are a lot of them out there are the subject, but this one basically states a black painted intercooler helps tremendously with radiant cooling, but doesn't make much difference with airflow. I blacked out the intercooler (with only a light coat of paint) because I didn't like how it looked behind the grill. it might help some at idle, but it was purely cosmetic.

 

[Department Of Boost]

What are you seeing for cruising IAT's?

What are you seeing for IAT's after 10sec WOT?

 

[rojizostang]

What are you seeing for cruising IAT's?

What are you seeing for IAT's after 10sec WOT?

here is how i'm going to answer that (all heat soaked temps)

ait2f's before the upgrades averaged probably 42 to 50 degrees above ambient. engine coolant temp seems to have no effect

after all the upgrades, i'm getting perhaps 38 to 45 degrees above ambient

I don't know about temps at WOT, I really haven't spent much time there, and, there's not many places around here I can do a 10 second pull at WOT, at least not safely.

I need more seat time to really determine how much improvement I've gained. On top of that, the temps here today are abnormally cool, so it seems the best determining factor to me is the difference between ambient and ait2f's...I think...I haven't had a chance to road test the truck with the new grill and to get the purple ice all circulated completely thru both cooling systems.

my hope is to eventually net perhaps an average difference of 30 degrees between ambient and ait2f's....

 

[golkhl]

5 degree drop is almost a 10% improvement! As for the H/E coolant you could safely run 80% distilled water and 20% coolant(during the summer months) I recently had some issues with redline water wetter in my car, and now no longer use anything other than distlled water and FoMoCo gold coolant. Maybe the royal purple is foaming up when the pump is running?

 

[rojizostang]

5 degree drop is almost a 10% improvement! As for the H/E coolant you could safely run 80% distilled water and 20% coolant(during the summer months) I recently had some issues with redline water wetter in my car, and now no longer use anything other than distlled water and FoMoCo gold coolant. Maybe the royal purple is foaming up when the pump is running?

it was doing that before the purple ice was added. I went for a 45 minute drive this afternoon, and it seems that ait2f's are averaging now at about ambient plus about 39* in stead state driving.

I was thinking the air was bleeding out of the coolant, however after today's ride it didn't appear to be any different than before.

Anyway, I've done all I plan to do regarding reducing ait2f's. It also looks better too now with the new grill, lol.

 

[Department Of Boost]

here is how i'm going to answer that (all heat soaked temps)

ait2f's before the upgrades averaged probably 42 to 50 degrees above ambient. engine coolant temp seems to have no effect

after all the upgrades, i'm getting perhaps 38 to 45 degrees above ambient

That's a great improvement. It's hart to dent cruising temps. You're fighting constantly re-cycling air (very little "fresh air") in a aluminum box that is getting heat poured into it by the cylinder heads. I have laser'd intake manifolds in the 155-175deg range. You could be running ice water though there and you will still have a hard time denting the latent heat in the manifold.

When you whack it WOT you get a bunch of fast moving fresh (cool) air and there isn't much time for the manifolds latent heat to heat the new air I suspect your WOT IAT2 numbers are much improved.

my hope is to eventually net perhaps an average difference of 30 degrees between ambient and ait2f's....

That's possible. And better than most systems by far. Getting much lower than that is tough unless you're dealing with one of our composite setups though. That's the silver bullet. I see cruising IAT2's 8-12deg over ambient.

 

[Department Of Boost]

As for the HE setup:

Your biggest issue right now is that most of the air is going around your HE's. Path of least resistance and all that. You will see a DRAMATIC improvement if you box your HE's in to the grill/bumper opening.

 

[rojizostang]

As for the HE setup:

Your biggest issue right now is that most of the air is going around your HE's. Path of least resistance and all that. You will see a DRAMATIC improvement if you box your HE's in to the grill/bumper opening.

thanks for your input

I didn't use a thermometer, since I didn't have one, but to the touch, the coolant in the degas bottle (it is the first point of contact when the coolant leaves the intercooler) was actually quite cool yesterday....at least compared to my body temp. I mean it actually felt cold, however the ait's sitting in my driveway at idle just don't reflect how cool the coolant is actually getting. It leads me to think as you said, a better intercooler/manifold arrangement is the only other solution to reducing those temperatures. Air dams may help, but it does appear the heat exchanger/pump set up is indeed cooling well.

BTW I haven't seen anything on your site as to what you have available for coyote motors. Did I miss it? I may consider an intercooler/manifold set up.

 

[Department Of Boost]

thanks for your input

I didn't use a thermometer, since I didn't have one, but to the touch, the coolant in the degas bottle (it is the first point of contact when the coolant leaves the intercooler) was actually quite cool yesterday....at least compared to my body temp. I mean it actually felt cold, however the ait's sitting in my driveway at idle just don't reflect how cool the coolant is actually getting. It leads me to think as you said, a better intercooler/manifold arrangement is the only other solution to reducing those temperatures. Air dams may help, but it does appear the heat exchanger/pump set up is indeed cooling well.

BTW I haven't seen anything on your site as to what you have available for coyote motors. Did I miss it? I may consider an intercooler/manifold set up.

http://www.departmentofboost.com/products/2011_2014_mustang_gt/gt550_coyote_phase_I.htm