gt500 sway bars

SoundGuyDave

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Griggs has a brace that is used between the LCA brackets and the rear shock location to strengthen that location , since basically you are using that as your spring perch.

From what I understand Ground control also valves Griggs rear shocks also as with the front coil over struts which are Ground control units that are painted yellow .
I knew they did the fronts, but I didn't know they did the rears as well... Maybe I'll ask them if they can do the conventional coilovers in the rear as part of the kit...

I'm using the G/C Track/School kit now with a front spring of 370 (i do have a blower on the car) and the rear of 225 . I'm also using the Steeda front Sway bar on the Softest setting with the 22mm..7/8 rear bar. Alignment settings are -1.75 camber + 7 caster 0 toe
That's the exact kit I'm looking at. No tech to back it up, but those spring rates just seem light. Must be a completely different motion ratio than I remember for the older chassis, which would take up to 1000lb springs! I'm also full soft up front, on a 35mm hollow bar, and a 22mm solid rear bar, and a little more track-aggressive alignment angles.

I will say adding the x-5 ball joints and relocation brackets for the LCA in the rear finished off everything nicely. I really don't know if adding a adjustable UCA will do that much , so I could dial in some more negative pinion angle ?
Awesome! Did you do the X5 and the AS brackets at the same time, or separately? How much of a front anti-dive effect did you gain from the X5, and how far up did your roll center shift? Enquiring minds want to know!! I don't know exactly how much the UCA adjustment will help with handling, but I know that it was a snap to set up pinion angle with it, which, if nothing else, will help longevity of the U-joints under their highest-stress condition.
 

DusterRT

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That's the exact kit I'm looking at. No tech to back it up, but those spring rates just seem light. Must be a completely different motion ratio than I remember for the older chassis, which would take up to 1000lb springs! I'm also full soft up front, on a 35mm hollow bar, and a 22mm solid rear bar, and a little more track-aggressive alignment angles.

FWIW, my GC street setup has 340# front and 175# rear..I was expecting higher numbers for the track/school kit. I wonder what the rates are for the race kit..

As far as the rear coilover deal; what's the big advantage of using a true coilover versus a shock and adjustable spring perch?

Caster/camber...I'm running -2.5 degrees camber and my plates look to be roughly in the middle of their adjustment range. Caster isn't really adjustable beyond the little bit of slop in the mounting bolts, but I have just over 7 degrees as it is.
 
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SoundGuyDave

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FWIW, my GC street setup has 340# front and 175# rear..I was expecting higher numbers for the track/school kit. I wonder what the rates are for the race kit..

Yeah, exactly! I honestly haven't done the measurements to figure out net wheel rate, but those numbers just sound wayyyy too light. I'm sure they're fine, but...

As far as the rear coilover deal; what's the big advantage of using a true coilover versus a shock and adjustable spring perch?

To be frank, I'm not entirely sure... Instinctively, I want to say it has to do with motion ratios. With a given amount of net axle motion in the vertical plane, it won't matter a lick if the springs are all the way outboard, or halfway in, or even all the way in. With ANY digression from pure vertical (some roll component), though, all that changes. Assuming we look at a pure roll change of 4" at the end of the axle tube on one side, and nominal spring rates of 150 lb/in, that means that a coilover at the static end has no change, and a coilover at the loaded end will have a compressive force of 600lbs over that 4" differential. For the sake of easy math, if we assume that the inboard spring mounts roughly divide the axle in thirds, and presented with the same single-sided bump travel of 4", then 2/3 of the load (roughly) will be borne on the loaded-side spring, and 1/3 on the static-side spring. That means overall, there is more mass in motion, which in turn is harder to damp. I think. The flip side is that, conceptually, with a given rate of spring, you could get more roll resistance from the inboard mounted springs than you could from the outboard, with no change in vertical axle rate. I think. I've been wrestling with that on and off for the last six months or so, and STILL haven't come up with a solid answer that really makes sense.

Anybody want to uncork the solution and the explaination to back it up?

Caster/camber...I'm running -2.5 degrees camber and my plates look to be roughly in the middle of their adjustment range. Caster isn't really adjustable beyond the little bit of slop in the mounting bolts, but I have just over 7 degrees as it is.
And here is a great point for their front kit: I have the struts preloaded negative with the crash bolts (eccentrics in the upper strut mount hole), and even with the MM plates all the way inboard for max negative camber, I can't exceed -2.5*. If the GC kit will install with -2.5* as the middle adjustment point, then there is potential for a lot more, which can be a good thing, depending on the tires!
 

Chris B.

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It looks like I may be able to get some sway bar advice here sicne I have a related question. I was planning to add the Hotchkis adjustable sway bar kit to my 2008 Mustang GT and keep the stock springs. I have the Koni Yellow(sport) shocks. I was planning to keep the stock springs and stock ride height for now.

The Hotchkis front bar is 4 Way Adjustable and has these rate increase vs stock +20%, +29%,+38%,+50%. The Hotchkis rear bar is 3 Way Adjustable and has these rate increase vs stock +50%, +70%, +100%.

I use the car as my daily driver and also in autoX events and track days. Would I need to use different settings for street tires and R compound tires?

How much of a handling improvement would I get over just upgrading the shocks and sway bars if I used a set of aftermarket springs that were stiffer and lower such as the Steeda sport spring?
 

SoundGuyDave

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I guess it's time to get into the "zen" of chassis tuning!

On a purely philosophical level, if the Mustang chassis was perfect, none of us would mod the thing, but it's designed as a street car, which compromises it's utility in competition settings, like for autocross or road course racing.

First philosophical question: What is the car doing that is making you unhappy? Understeer? Oversteer? Excessive squat/dive under accel and/or braking? Sloppy "feel" at turn-in? Identify the problem, then work out the solution based on that specific complaint.

First off, EVERYTHING in chassis tuning is geared towards keeping as much tire on the ground as possible under competition conditions. Drag guys don't car so much about the fronts, but concentrate on the rear contact patch for launch traction. Corner-carvers concentrate on keeping maximum possible contact patch at all four corners under all conditions. In the end tires are what make the car go, stop, and turn, so that's the start of it all!

Assuming you have your tire issues worked out (biggest, stickiest rubber you can get away with, alignment angles), then you tune the chassis to maximize your contact patch under the different loads you're going to be experiencing.

Springs are your primary tuning point. Going stiffer will reduce body roll, as well as squat and dive, but the drawback is reduced ride comfort, and at the extreme, inability to keep the tires in contact with the ground over uneven terrain (potholes, speed bumps, berms, etc.). With no suspension at all (infinite spring rate), we would have maximum contact area, but only on a pure flat surface. Since there isn't a field of cones or track in the world that's THAT flat, we need to have springs.

Dampers are there simply to keep the springs we've selected from oscillating. Better dampers do a better job of it, but they still need to be tuned to the spring. While you can alter the "tone" of the car with dampers (think comfort, sport or drag shock valving), they still are there to keep the car from pogo-sticking every time you hit a bump.

Next would be anti-roll bars. By stiffening the bar (thicker bar, or shorter moment-arm) you will transfer some of the load from one side of the suspension to the other, using the sprung chassis as the fulcrum. The upside is that you have less body roll, the downside is that the load being transferred may actually REDUCE the total traction available in a corner. Think of it this way: without an ARB, both front tires are contributing to the grip total of the car, but the momentum of the body swinging over is causing other issues. Adding an ARB will reduce the body roll, but will transfer some of the load from the lightly loaded inside tire to the highly loaded outside tire, as it tries to lift to follow the chassis. IF the load being transferred causes the outside tire to exceed 100% of it's possible grip, it will slide, causing understeer. In the rear, the bar would cause oversteer, from the same mechanics. This is one of the reasons that most of the people in this thread that have adjustable bars seem to run them on the "soft" side.

After you have the springs and dampers dialled in, and the ARB set for neutral handling, then you can use tire pressures to fine-tune the balance of the car. Small (like 1lb!) adjustments can have a pretty good effect on the understeer/oversteer balance of the car, but unfortunately, the only way to properly read them is with a pyrometer and a crew to take the readings quickly. The longer a car sits, the less valid the temp readings are. You're looking for roughly even (10* variance from inside to outside) temps, with the center temp being a rough average of inside and outside. That average will tell you that your pressure is correct, and the inside/outside temps will give you a good read on the way the suspension is working for you (or against you!).

Clear as mud, right?
 

SD07GT

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I knew they did the fronts, but I didn't know they did the rears as well... Maybe I'll ask them if they can do the conventional coilovers in the rear as part of the kit...

That's the exact kit I'm looking at. No tech to back it up, but those spring rates just seem light. Must be a completely different motion ratio than I remember for the older chassis, which would take up to 1000lb springs! I'm also full soft up front, on a 35mm hollow bar, and a 22mm solid rear bar, and a little more track-aggressive alignment angles.

Awesome! Did you do the X5 and the AS brackets at the same time, or separately? How much of a front anti-dive effect did you gain from the X5, and how far up did your roll center shift? Enquiring minds want to know!! I don't know exactly how much the UCA adjustment will help with handling, but I know that it was a snap to set up pinion angle with it, which, if nothing else, will help longevity of the U-joints under their highest-stress condition.



Usually the spring rates on the track/school kit are 400 F @ 250 R ...I leaned more to the school ride because of my bigger sway bars . When I spoke with Jay at G/C he said the ride might be way to stiff and I might want to go back with stock sway bars (lol I said no thanks ) so I choose the later. I know chip went back to the 20 mm rear bar when he choose the 250 springs for the rear I'm guessing the 22mm bar was just to much and over steer was present so I choose the 225 spring rate with the 22mm bar and for the front I could always dial in more negative camber ,shock adjustment, tire pressure , sway bar adjustment @ going to a 275-35-18 tire in front so I still have options to play with If I feel the spring rates are to soft . I have been in a car with a 460 F @ 275 R ...and it was way to much for me to drive on the street everyday .


I installed the x-5 ball joints , bump steer kit and C/O set up at the same time . I will tell you the front is dropped 1.25 so the roll center is still off some because the front control arms are still not parallel. The x-5 really only work perfectly with a 3/4 to a 1" drop to get the roll center back to the OEM form. The only way I could tell if they helped was to play with the sway bar setting from neutral (middle) to the softest setting (end of bar).
Very little under steer with the neutral setting but the turn in was much better on the softest setting with no under steer in the car . (but in the end for me it was still hard to tell How much they helped) ?

Now what helped was the Steeda relocation brackets on the rear , the arms were set parallel to the ground. There was no brake dive and the squatting coming out of corners is gone now ..I was running a 160-220 progressive spring before on the rear so I could have something to compare with, now there more grip on the front because the weight transfer is more balanced now .


For me I'm about done because the car has more than I can push ...and I don't think a watts link @ a front relocation kit of the arms will do anything for me that I can tell. I will do some 275-35-18 tires of some sorts to get rid of the 45 series in front and the 40 series in the rear and play with air pressure , I will do this mainly to get a better feel of the tarmac .


I was told that the two piece drive shaft has a CV joint on the rear pinion flange so it really doesn't matter where your pinion angle is ...as far as u-joint ware ? but -2 to -3 is still needed to get optimal bite .
 

SoundGuyDave

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Usually the spring rates on the track/school kit are 400 F @ 250 R ...I leaned more to the school ride because of my bigger sway bars . When I spoke with Jay at G/C he said the ride might be way to stiff and I might want to go back with stock sway bars (lol I said no thanks ) so I choose the later. I know chip went back to the 20 mm rear bar when he choose the 250 springs for the rear I'm guessing the 22mm bar was just to much and over steer was present so I choose the 225 spring rate with the 22mm bar and for the front I could always dial in more negative camber ,shock adjustment, tire pressure , sway bar adjustment @ going to a 275-35-18 tire in front so I still have options to play with If I feel the spring rates are to soft . I have been in a car with a 460 F @ 275 R ...and it was way to much for me to drive on the street everyday .

Those rates sound more in line with what i would expect... I've still got the stock bars floating around, so if I wind up in that position, it's a few more points in the bank to spend.


I installed the x-5 ball joints , bump steer kit and C/O set up at the same time . I will tell you the front is dropped 1.25 so the roll center is still off some because the front control arms are still not parallel. The x-5 really only work perfectly with a 3/4 to a 1" drop to get the roll center back to the OEM form. The only way I could tell if they helped was to play with the sway bar setting from neutral (middle) to the softest setting (end of bar).
Very little under steer with the neutral setting but the turn in was much better on the softest setting with no under steer in the car . (but in the end for me it was still hard to tell How much they helped) ?

Interesting!! From where I'm sitting, the X5, combined with something like the Whiteline ADK (which lowers the rear of the front control arm, and offsets it to the outside) might be enough to dial in 20-30% anti-dive, which would be about perfect. I'll have to start doing solid measurements to determine static IC and RC over the winter! If your turn-in was better, then you're probably on the right track! No instability in hard braking over bumpy surfaces, though, right? I'm thinking more suspension bind than bump-steer here...

Now what helped was the Steeda relocation brackets on the rear , the arms were set parallel to the ground. There was no brake dive and the squatting coming out of corners is gone now ..I was running a 160-220 progressive spring before on the rear so I could have something to compare with, now there more grip on the front because the weight transfer is more balanced now .

Sigh. I used to have those, but pulled the brackets when I geared up for TT at the beginning of the year... I may have to find the 6 points somewhere and put them back on, because, let me tell you, squat/dive I got, baby!


For me I'm about done because the car has more than I can push ...and I don't think a watts link @ a front relocation kit of the arms will do anything for me that I can tell. I will do some 275-35-18 tires of some sorts to get rid of the 45 series in front and the 40 series in the rear and play with air pressure , I will do this mainly to get a better feel of the tarmac .

Smart man! Get the package together, so the car is neutral, then learn to drive the piss out of it! After a while, you'll find something that is annoying you, and start all over again! Remember: it's a disease!!


I was told that the two piece drive shaft has a CV joint on the rear pinion flange so it really doesn't matter where your pinion angle is ...as far as u-joint ware ? but -2 to -3 is still needed to get optimal bite .

The CV joint tracks with what I remember when I swapped mine out. I went to a 1-piece (Spydershaft) and never looked back. Throttle-steering is so much more "connected" now, with immediate result, and none of the "vagueness" that I remember from the 2-piece. The car revs up quicker as well! -2* is what I'm running as well, which was a snap to set up with adjustable upper, lowers, and PHB. It took me less than an hour to get the axle centered longitudinally, laterally, and with the -2* pinion angle and under 0.1* thrust angle.
 

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