heat exchanger coolant temps/efficiency

[rojizostang]

This is a general question, and I'm looking for perhaps a variety of data.

Generally speaking, what should one expect regarding heat exchangers and the temperature of the coolant circulating within the system? I know there are many variables...boost, ambient temps, intake air temps, engine coolant temps, cylinder head temps, and so on.

I am trying to determine the level of efficiency of my current heat exchanger set up, and whether or not upgrading to an afco dual pass/fan unit would net worthwhile results (as it relates to iat2f's).

I bought a trail tech tto in line 19mm coolant temp monitor to determine actual system temperatures (aside from measuring temps at the expansion tank). I was surprised to find basically no difference in temps between the expansion tank (post intercooler) and the pre intercooler (post heat exchanger) temps.

Any and all information is appreciated, thanks.

By the way, the intercooler's efficiency is a thread for another day. It's to expensive to swap out. Thanks in advance!

 

[TheBlackPearl]

What blower do you have?

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[rojizostang]

roush tvs 2.3

i'm not trying to evaluate it's thermal efficiency though. I'm trying to collect enough information to make an informed decision regarding solely the heat exchanger

 

[TheBlackPearl]

Don't quote me on this, but if you post-heat exchanger temps are drastically above average I would consider upgrading you HE. If not, then I think it's fine.

Also note I'm not the most experienced person on this. Hopefully DOB will see this and have better input.

TBP

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[408Stang]

120 to 150 degrees is pretty normal. Mine never goes over about 155, even while racing (road course) and under boost a lot of the time. Same goes for heavy traffic driving in about 105 degree weather.

 

[rojizostang]

Don't quote me on this, but if you post-heat exchanger temps are drastically above average I would consider upgrading you HE. If not, then I think it's fine.

Also note I'm not the most experienced person on this. Hopefully DOB will see this and have better input.

TBP

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

ok, I won't quote you...lol

that's the deal...we are speaking of coolant temps withing the ltr system itself. I haven't seen much data on temperature ranges that represent an efficient/non-efficient system. also, there is basically no difference in coolant temps before and after the heat exchanger set up. that was my surprise.

 

[TheBlackPearl]

If there isn't a difference then maybe your blower isn't heating it up above ambient temperature or your ic pump isn't working. I doubt the latter.

TBP

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[rojizostang]

'13 gt500 pump is working well

someone here or on another forum said that coolant temps are system wide, so to speak. In other words, there won't be much difference in temps at different points within the system itself. since it's fluid, it will be fairly stable across the whole system.

I didn't believe it, and I'm still not sure that's the case, so I'm searching for data

 

[rojizostang]

so far, coolant temps are around 7 degrees above ambient, with about maybe .75 degrees higher temps in the expansion tank, as opposed to the post heat exchanger temps.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

Okay so you have a Roush TVS. What boost level are you running at? Whatelse has been done to the engine? Are you running the Roush factory tune? If not who tunes it? Closed air box or open air box? Have you datalogged the IATs temps to see what they are averaging? Are you racing the car? Or are you just driving it around? You are in San Antonio. What are teh summer months like there with regard to temp and Humidity?

Before any suggestion can be made you need to provide more 411. Otherwise all you get is speculation like darts being thrown blindly at a dart board.

 

[rojizostang]

Okay so you have a Roush TVS. What boost level are you running at? Whatelse has been done to the engine? Are you running the Roush factory tune? If not who tunes it? Closed air box or open air box? Have you datalogged the IATs temps to see what they are averaging? Are you racing the car? Or are you just driving it around? You are in San Antonio. What are teh summer months like there with regard to temp and Humidity?

Before any suggestion can be made you need to provide more 411. Otherwise all you get is speculation like darts being thrown blindly at a dart board.

Again, we aren't speaking of actual air intake temps. I am speaking of coolant temps, within the heat exchanger system itself. But, to answer your questions..

80mm pulley, approx. 10lbs of boost
engine is otherwise stock, except for off road pipe
tuned by a source to be named later
datalogging ait2f's is unnecessary, as I can see them real time with my x4
I haven't been to the track, but I like to get into boost
summertime temps and humidity in San Antonio are horrid

I'm grateful that you've taken the time to post, but I'm looking specifically at the heat exchanger as it relates to its stand alone cooling capability.

Here's a hypothetical, perhaps that might help. If I were to idle the vehicle in the driveway, getting it up to operating temp plus enough time for all under hood systems to become heat soaked, what should I expect in terms of coolant temps in the heat exchanger system, compared to ambient. This might be a lot to ask, but hopefully it will put me on the pathway to determining the effectiveness of switching to an afco unit.

If that doesn't help, can I pre approximate the cooling benefits of the afco dual pass dual fan unit? I'm just not a fan of spending a lot of money on something that won't make much difference.

120 to 150 degrees is pretty normal. Mine never goes over about 155, even while racing (road course) and under boost a lot of the time. Same goes for heavy traffic driving in about 105 degree weather.

not speaking of air intake temps, or are you speaking of coolant temps? and how do you know?

let me put this another way...if an afco unit won't move the temps closer to ambient, then it won't help, regardless of whatever else is going on

 

[rojizostang]

by the way, here's what I used to determine heat exchanger system temps, except for it's 19mm, or 3/4" hose diameter. At the same time I had a digital thermometer in the expansion tank and noticed no appreciable difference in temperatures. Obviously I'm not able to do this while I'm driving and in boost. That would require a lot more work regarding running digital gauges and hose adapters all over the place.

 

[hamish]

^That's exactly what you should do.
If the HE is doing its job, coolant coming out of the HE should be close to ambient.

You will be making heat in boost more so than just heat soaking from regular driving.

Get a second temp transmitter and place it before the IC inlet and one after to see whats really going on.

Or pre HE and Post He for your test.

If the temperature element is an rtd style probe, just cut and extend the wires for a comparison temperature differential. Inlet vs outlet.

 

[408Stang]

I'm confused... You keep referring to "IAT's" specifically in regard to monitoring them on your X4. IAT is an AIR temperature reading, not a coolant reading. But then you are talking about the coolant temp before and after circulation through the heat exchanger. You are right.... There will probably be almost no difference in coolant temp before and after circulation. First, it circulates pretty fast. Second, the coolant is in direct contact with the metal of the heat exchanger, the intake AIR temperature will be about the same as the coolant temperature no matter what. Doing static testing like you are talking about probably won't yield any results to give you an opinion.

What is a consideration is the EFFICIENCY of larger heat exchanger, meaning it's ability to absorb and shed heat over a given time. You are evaluating the wrong numbers in my opinion. Rather than trying to measure the difference in temperature over the size / distance traveled in the system (amount / quantitative analysis), you should be evaluating the amount of temperature drop over a set time (rate / qualitative analysis) to determine if the bigger unit is worth it for you.

In short... You could install a unit from a locomotive and it will probably still get just as hot as one from a motorcycle if you let it sit idling in your driveway, but the larger one could dissipate the heat significantly faster than the smaller one.

Of course efficiency of materials come into play too... Such as a copper / brass unit versus an aluminum one. If you want Temps to come down faster and stay down longer, the larger unit is the way to go.

For example, race cars need things (engines, brakes, cooling systems) to take a lot of heat quickly and dissipate it even faster (like during each blast down a straight away on a road course). That's why everything related to cooling is huge on a road race car... They need the cooling rate to be high, not necessarily the cooling amount. A drag car.... Not so much... The time is short, and weight is more of a primary concern, thus drag cars have very small or even non-existent cooling systems.

Put another way... The increased cooling amount of a larger heat exchanger is due to the speed / rate and which it can come down... A bigger / more efficient system can cool more over the same time frame than a smaller unit could. Given enough time the small system would catch up, but the small system doesn't always get the time to do so in street driving your Stang, thus the result is more heat being retained in a smaller system.

Also, be careful about relying on data from any OBD device. Some values are extrapolated from multiple sensors and there may be no actual physical sensor reading the value you are talking about. For example, unless you installed a temp sensor in the intake runners, the IAT is measured at the MAF, however the parameter "ambient air temp" through OBD is a interpreted / extrapolated value based on air flow over the MAF minus the actual IAT being measured at the MAF. It's a pretty good extrapolation in my experience, but it's based on a mathematical formula nonetheless.

 

[rojizostang]

Also, be careful about relying on data from any OBD device. Some values are extrapolated from multiple sensors and there may be no actual physical sensor reading the value you are talking about. For example, unless you installed a temp sensor in the intake runners, the IAT is measured at the MAF, however the parameter "ambient air temp" through OBD is a interpreted / extrapolated value based on air flow over the MAF minus the actual IAT being measured at the MAF. It's a pretty good extrapolation in my experience, but it's based on a mathematical formula nonetheless]

the temperature sensor is in the intake runner

Since there is a relationship between the intake temps and the heat exchanger/intercooler, I've been trying to determine how effective my current set up is. As mentioned, I was surprised to find virtually no difference in pre and post heat exchanger coolant temp measurements. They are difficult to obtain in a real time fashion however, without a lot of work to install cockpit gauges, and, it's data that's only needed to make a decision regarding an upgrade, and not something i'm interested in monitoring constantly. I did make a couple of boosted passes and then pull over and immediately measure expansion tank temps and post heat exchanger temps, and found virtually no difference. It's what lead me to trying to determine my system's ability to dissipate heat while just sitting in the driveway.

After having said all that, it's at approximately 7 degrees above ambient temps, and I don't know if this is a good or not so good number. This hasn't involved a lot of testing yet, but it's what I've encountered so far.

I apologize for not making the information more clear. The temps I measure with the x4 are engine coolant temps, and the pid for iat2f's, along with measured afr for banks 1 and 2.

The coolant temps were/are measure with digital gauges with the device referenced in a previous post (a motorcycle coolant temp sensor) installed in the exchanger coolant system. I could have installed 2 of them, however since the readings are taken under the hood, I elected to used a digital thermometer in the expansion tank, along with the mentioned trail tech tto digital in line gauge.

^That's exactly what you should do.
If the HE is doing its job, coolant coming out of the HE should be close to ambient.

You will be making heat in boost more so than just heat soaking from regular driving.

Get a second temp transmitter and place it before the IC inlet and one after to see whats really going on.

Or pre HE and Post He for your test.

If the temperature element is an rtd style probe, just cut and extend the wires for a comparison temperature differential. Inlet vs outlet.

as mentioned, real time monitoring while driving is difficult to obtain without a lot of work. also I've found, with the limited testing I've done, very little difference in pre and post temp readings. installing gauges in the cabin may be my only choice to know for sure, but at this point, I want to avoid that.

Basically, I want one of the smart guys to determine if 7 degrees above ambient is a number representative of whether or not my system warrants an upgrade!

 

[redfirepearlgt]

80mm pulley, approx. 10lbs of boost
engine is otherwise stock, except for off road pipe
tuned by a source to be named later
datalogging ait2f's is unnecessary, as I can see them real time with my x4
I haven't been to the track, but I like to get into boost
summertime temps and humidity in San Antonio are horrid

I'm grateful that you've taken the time to post, but I'm looking specifically at the heat exchanger as it relates to its stand alone cooling capability.

Here's a hypothetical, perhaps that might help. If I were to idle the vehicle in the driveway, getting it up to operating temp plus enough time for all under hood systems to become heat soaked, what should I expect in terms of coolant temps in the heat exchanger system, compared to ambient. This might be a lot to ask, but hopefully it will put me on the pathway to determining the effectiveness of switching to an afco unit.

I haven't really done any logging from that perspective. I highly suggest you obtain the FREE LIVELINK GEN2 datalogging software package from SCT's website, load it onto a laptop (or a friends laptop), sync your X4 and do some datalogging with RPM, IAT, IAT2 and AMBIENT AIR selected.

As for loaded pulls, with an 82mm and the closed air box, on a dyno in cool spring air and a fan sitting in front of the car (about 70-75 degrees out as I recall) idle IAT2 temps (not IAT) on the stock HE were 129 degrees. Under load it climbed to only 132 degrees. Engine coolant temps for reference were 192-193 at idle and dropped to 187 during the dyno pull. (170 degree T-stat).
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When the triple pass was added in Late May, I drove the car home and observed IAT2 temps on the data log cruising along at 70 to be 108-111 in 80 degree air as I recall. I made very consistent passes at NRMA Hebron in the true street class with this setup in 90+ air temps a week later. I never datalogged that day.
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Present day - I installed and retuned for a JLT123 open air CAI and now at idle IAT2 temps sitting in line awaiting to make a pass with the VMP triple pass still read 129 degrees in 87 degree air (2800DA to be specific). During the pass IAT2 never went above 132. At shut down as I was braking the IAT2 temps rose to 138, but then recovered.

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I have no interest in what the coolant temp within the HE (not the engine coolant temp) itself is. Efficiency from my concern is measured by the IAT2 air temp against ambient air temp under a full load for my interest. I am running 40% coolant to 60% DI water (not tap water) with the same pump that was provided by Roush that you have. I am using the same res and I am not icing anything. The addition of the VMP Triple pass has been a benefit. Any similar upgrade in a dual or triple pass would help your situation out along with running pure DI water since San Antonio seldom if ever sees sub 32 temps (I am guessing).

IMO if you are running an open air element your stock HE will be overcome quicker at idle than a larger capacity system with cooling fans. Hope this helps serve your quest.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

Also, be careful about relying on data from any OBD device. Some values are extrapolated from multiple sensors and there may be no actual physical sensor reading the value you are talking about. For example, unless you installed a temp sensor in the intake runners, the IAT is measured at the MAF, however the parameter "ambient air temp" through OBD is a interpreted / extrapolated value based on air flow over the MAF minus the actual IAT being measured at the MAF. It's a pretty good extrapolation in my experience, but it's based on a mathematical formula nonetheless.

FI setups have an actual air temp sensor (IAT2, not IAT) located in the air path after the IC just before the air enters the cylinder. This is an actual measurement of temp.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

This is a general question, and I'm looking for perhaps a variety of data.

Generally speaking, what should one expect regarding heat exchangers and the temperature of the coolant circulating within the system? I know there are many variables...boost, ambient temps, intake air temps, engine coolant temps, cylinder head temps, and so on.

I am trying to determine the level of efficiency of my current heat exchanger set up, and whether or not upgrading to an afco dual pass/fan unit would net worthwhile results (as it relates to iat2f's).

I bought a trail tech tto in line 19mm coolant temp monitor to determine actual system temperatures (aside from measuring temps at the expansion tank). I was surprised to find basically no difference in temps between the expansion tank (post intercooler) and the pre intercooler (post heat exchanger) temps.

Any and all information is appreciated, thanks.

By the way, the intercooler's efficiency is a thread for another day. It's to expensive to swap out. Thanks in advance!

Is this an in line device you have with a gauge on the dash or means of datalogging or is it simply a hand held probe type device you are putting in the HE res and checking the temps with the hood up while the car idles?

 

[skwerl]

Seeing as how there are thousands of Mustangs out there with the TVS2300 blowers, it's not like you have to forge a new path through the wilderness to find your answers. The research has already been done and most TVS dealers/tuners are well aware of what works and what doesn't. I'm lucky in that I can just pick up my phone and call or text Justin at VMP and he will tell me whatever I want to know.

But disregarding those with experience running the same blower while you try to research coolant temps seems like a waste of time. IMO the Afco dual pass or VMP triple pass intercooler will help out in more extreme conditions. The GT500 pump you're running is more than adequate. Drawing in cool air through the intake as opposed to hot air from the engine compartment will help when stopped in traffic.

All this is pretty basic, common knowledge for those who deal with the Roush superchargers regularly.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

Seeing as how there are thousands of Mustangs out there with the TVS2300 blowers, it's not like you have to forge a new path through the wilderness to find your answers. The research has already been done and most TVS dealers/tuners are well aware of what works and what doesn't. I'm lucky in that I can just pick up my phone and call or text Justin at VMP and he will tell me whatever I want to know.

But disregarding those with experience running the same blower while you try to research coolant temps seems like a waste of time. IMO the Afco dual pass or VMP triple pass intercooler will help out in more extreme conditions. The GT500 pump you're running is more than adequate. Drawing in cool air through the intake as opposed to hot air from the engine compartment will help when stopped in traffic.

All this is pretty basic, common knowledge for those who deal with the Roush superchargers regularly.

Words of wisdom from Justin. End of story. And that's how I made the decision. I called VMP and asked.

I find his interest in trying to determine and apply common physics to the equation interesting however. If I were to guess he works in HVAC or Boilers of some nature.