heat exchanger coolant temps/efficiency

[Department Of Boost]

^^^ Good stuff. Has DOB experimented with triple pass units or double pass with regard to finding the optimal recirc pump with respect to the typical 2300 TVS and kitted IC on Coyotes as well as 4.6 3v's?

Oh have I!!!!

I've done more water pump testing than anyone else on the planet. No shit, that's a fact. Feast your eyes on this (this isn't even close to all the data):

As far as the whole single/double/triple pass thing goes it's not a one size fits all answer. More passes is not a guarantee of better efficiency. For example, if the HE core is not big enough and you make it a triple pass you will introduce a restriction into the system and slow down water flow. The slower water flow hurts more than any perceived advantage from having more passes. Some of the triple pass units out there are too small.

I work with Griffin (they make my stuff for me) on passes, etc. They are not fans of more passes. And they have done a lot more testing than most.

For Griffin and me it comes down to packaging. If you need the inlet/outlet on the same side you go dual pass. And frankly if the inlet/outlet are to be on opposite sides they and I would go with a single pass. But the market demands more passes so the one I have coming out shortly will be a triple. Granted, it's big enough so it won't be a flow restriction.

At what point (if any) does flow increase become a problem with the HE not pulling enough heat from the coolant (due to lower time in the HE as flow increases) before it reenters the IC?

That's 100% myth. There is a point where you don't NEED to move the water any faster. But you can't move the water too fast. I've run the system on my blue car from 4.25gpm to 26gpm and every time water speed went up IAT's went down. Somewhere out there is the point of diminishing returns. I haven't found it yet and there aren't any pumps to pump faster anyway.

I have a HUGE article that covers why water speed doesn't hurt. It's very long and very complicated. It took me a long time to get my head around it enough to be able to articulate it to others. Hopefully I can chip some time out and get her done soon.

I would think there would be a flow velocity that once exceeded becomes less efficient just as lack of flow would be with regard to the IC side on the bottom end correct? Or at least a point at which increased flow beyond a certain point no longer improves the loop process. the velocity to heat removal would chart out parabolic or rise and plateau at best correct?

Yes, you're correct. I haven't found that point though. And I've run water a WHOLE LOT faster than anyone else.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

^^ I will send you a PM. I don't want to turn this away from the topic at hand with respect to the OP. Thanks for the time to respond and thanks OP for this discussion. Really has been an eye opener.

 

[rojizostang]

To DOB

I posted the same wiring diagram for the CWA50 pump several months ago. I actually contacted the stateside supplier of the pump and they gave me all the specs. I also posted links to the data.

There is no flow issue. As you stated, my temps above ambient, by your admission, are pretty good. That's all I needed to hear, as I wasn't sure what to expect from an "efficient" heat exchanger loop.

Also, regarding the tune, yes, it is a modified Roush tune, modified by one of the major f150 players. Now, I can't speak for all tuners, or very few in fact, but it seems to be a fairly common practice to modify a Roush tune, rather than attempting to build a tune from ground up. I know this because the tune itself was confirmed to be a Roush tune by the second tuner I've used on the truck. The original tuner sold it as his "in house" tune, and he apparently does the same thing the second tuner admitted to doing. His exact words, "The tunes are just too hard to do correctly without starting with the base Roush tune. So, we let them do the leg work, and then do our tune from theirs."

There is a label on the tune data...I can't remember the proper terminology, it's the same one that tuners ask for when they build a tune and want the number off the ecu. I'm drawing a blank.....but when I gave the second tuner the "numbers" from the original tune sold as a house tune by the first tuner, he readily admitted that it was merely a modified Roush tune.

And, by the way, Roush tunes start pulling timing at 120 degrees, lol.

I am speaking only of 2 specific companies/tuners, and won't reveal who they are, at least not yet. I don't need to get into any arguments over it.

Typ most tuners will set the tune to start to pull timing at 135 F. Some will be as high as 150 F. 120 F seems too low, never heard of one set that low. IMO, for max effectiveness, I would plumb the HE's in parallel, not series. If you put 2 x identical roush HE's one behind the other, and plumbed in parallel, the flow would slow down through each individual HE. You would dump more heat from each HE

Also, it was mentioned plumbing the heat exchangers in parallel...this might be an option, but I think it would be a plumbing nightmare. Not sure what kind of four way splitter (1 in and 3 out) I could find to accomplish this task with even flow characteristics. And then after they pass thru the parallel heat exchangers, getting them to flow evenly into another fitting without a serious back up of coolant would be fairly complex, I believe. It would also require quite a bit of hose beyond what I have. DOB would take you task regarding the comment about slowing flow down thru the heat exchangers....

I'm not setting my system as an example or model. Simply trying to determine its efficiency, and if an upgrade would be beneficial. Like DOB said, my coolant temps aren't going to get much better without going completely crazy (with heat exchangers and intercoolers)

 

[santi_bh88]

What about the coolant?? What brand or what type is the best?

 

[rojizostang]

What about the coolant?? What brand or what type is the best?

I suggest starting another thread. Lots of different opinions on that one. I think the only thing most will agree on is that more water and less coolant transfers heat better. I personally run 30% coolant and 70% water, and about 8 ounces of wetting agent, (not water wetter or purple ice, but a different one I can't remember, not that there's anything wrong with the two mentioned, which is another whole different story, lol)

really, a separate thread is best I think.

 

[eighty6gt]

I doubt very much adjusting the mix from 50/50 to 30/70 would produce a detectable difference in IAT's, but it is a massive pain in the ass.

 

[BruceH]

I'm somewhat confused at this point. I understand wanting the lowest iats possible. I don't understand how that will help anything with a tuner who steals a Roush tune and modifies it for your car. That's insane imo.

IMO your first obstacle to overcome is getting a tuner. Once that's done I'd start to be concerned with the rest.

 

[BruceH]

I'm somewhat confused at this point. I understand wanting the lowest iats possible. I don't understand how that will help anything with a tuner who steals a Roush tune and modifies it for your car. That's insane imo.

IMO your first obstacle to overcome is getting a tuner. Once that's done I'd start to be concerned with the rest.

It's not that insane now that I think about it. A shop that doesn't specialize in 3v Forced induction Mustangs would be smart to take a known, very conservative tune and use the spark advance, lambda, etc while adjusting the variables like maf xfer, injectors, etc. Since they don't know where the point of no return is on this motor they are keeping it safe for the customer.

In the end you are the one who drives it and more importantly paid for all the mods and the car itself. There's nothing wrong with being ultra conservative with your hard earned money.

 

[rojizostang]

I'm somewhat confused at this point. I understand wanting the lowest iats possible. I don't understand how that will help anything with a tuner who steals a Roush tune and modifies it for your car. That's insane imo.

IMO your first obstacle to overcome is getting a tuner. Once that's done I'd start to be concerned with the rest.

well this is my fault. I got the thread off track and talked about too many different subjects. I should have kept it narrowed to heat exchanger efficiency. sorry about the confusion.

as far as the tuners are concerned...the first shop/tuner is a renowned "mustang" shop. maybe not all that popular here, but mustangs more than anything else, nonetheless.

 

[Department Of Boost]

DOB would take you task regarding the comment about slowing flow down thru the heat exchangers....

I don't have any A-B testing on this. But using what I have learned I don't think you will find a measurable difference plumbing the HE's in parallel. In cooling efficiency or degradation of flow.

 

[Department Of Boost]

What about the coolant?? What brand or what type is the best?

I suggest starting another thread. Lots of different opinions on that one. I think the only thing most will agree on is that more water and less coolant transfers heat better. I personally run 30% coolant and 70% water, and about 8 ounces of wetting agent, (not water wetter or purple ice, but a different one I can't remember, not that there's anything wrong with the two mentioned, which is another whole different story, lol)

really, a separate thread is best I think.

This. I've been all over with this stuff. That is what I run now.

 

[eighty6gt]

No reason not to do 70/30 if you live in a warm climate, the coolant mix will do it's anti corrosion stuff, for those of us who live where it gets to 40 below, forget it. JMHO, from someone who's run both mixes and had many casual looks at IAT's.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

I have no interest in this product, but thought I would mention it for sake of conversation. Ever see the KILLER CHILLER? Here is the link. A guy locally has one on his 2004 SVT Cobra. If you are looking for low coolant supply temps and wish to spend $1000 for the track version here it is. I'm personally not interested in having to run my AC unit to pull heat out of my IC heat extraction loop, but some people are and love this thing. I've heard of 40 degree coolant temps entering the I.C. unit. Personally I'd begin to get concerned with condensate issues inside the IC unit on the air flow side. Sounds like it could be just a huge dehumidifier to me regardless of the ambient RH in the air entering the SC. But if one seeks super chilled coolant supply temps to the IC this would be an option.

http://killerchiller.com/

 

[Department Of Boost]

I have no interest in this product, but thought I would mention it for sake of conversation. Ever see the KILLER CHILLER? Here is the link. A guy locally has one on his 2004 SVT Cobra. If you are looking for low coolant supply temps and wish to spend $1000 for the track version here it is. I'm personally not interested in having to run my AC unit to pull heat out of my IC heat extraction loop, but some people are and love this thing. I've heard of 40 degree coolant temps entering the I.C. unit. Personally I'd begin to get concerned with condensate issues inside the IC unit on the air flow side. Sounds like it could be just a huge dehumidifier to me regardless of the ambient RH in the air entering the SC. But if one seeks super chilled coolant supply temps to the IC this would be an option.

http://killerchiller.com/

It's an interesting idea but I have a couple of issue with it:

1.) Why add an additional system to something before you maximize the potential of the existing ones? The as delivered A2W systems out there are frankly garbage and have lots of room for improvement. Make those improvements before adding complexity and weight.

2.) Even with shockingly low coolant temps you still have to move the water quite a bit faster through the IC to get good IAT's. I've seen plenty of cars with ice water that were still pulling timing. So if you need to run a better/bigger pump with the KC anyway why not just get a big HE to go with it and avoid the KC cost/complexity/weight?

3.) It only works in short bursts. This may suit a lot of peoples needs (drag strip). But it would never keep up at let's say a track day. And if you're going to run it at the drag strip there is an argument for running an ice chest.

4.) For about the same money you can switch over to e85 which doesn't add complexity/weight and has better cooling characteristics.

5.) And I've HEARD, I don't know this first hand, that they're rather temperamental.

 

[rojizostang]

well, I thought this thread was done. I contacted afco, asking what to expect regarding coolant temps within the heat exchanger loop using the unit i'm interested in. the representative informed me I could expect temperatures to be in the ambient plus 10-20 degrees with their unit.

that tells me all I need to know. the most I've seen so far with my home concoction is 9 degrees above ambient, and as little as 5. I don't have a lot of time with it regarding tracking temps, but so far, it seems to be working well.

an upgrade to the afco unit would probably be 1/2 step backwards.

Rusty,

With our 80284PRO you can expect a temperature drop of approximately 30° in the coolant temperature vs. the stock small Roush unit. The fans on the unit pull 800CFM each. The largest advantage of this unit would be how consistent it keeps the temperature. After a wide open throttle run it drops back down to operating temperature quickly due to the thickness of the unit and also the fans. In traffic, sitting still or, normal low speed driving the fans keep the unit from becoming heat soaked, whereas a unit without fans allows the temperature to keep climbing while sitting still. The fans usually keep it within 10°-20° from ambient.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

^^^ Not trying to sound like a no it all, but after the learning experience from this thread and hearing what you have created to this point I am not surprised. You;vegot a great setup and at a fraction of what I spent. APLAUD! I appreciate the opportunity to interject and learn as well. I have learned that increasing flow rate with a faster circulating pump will be a benefit for the 2017 season.

And thanks DOB for answering the Killer Chiller post. I am not a fan of the product but several in my area are. Appreciate the data also.

 

[skwerl]

I've never heard any rave reviews on the Killer Chiller from any respected tuners or racers. If it really worked as well as claimed then every tuner in the country would be peddling them.

 

[TheBlackPearl]

I believe Ford tried a similar concept on the "third gen" lightning. It used the AC to cool a small coolant reservoir and when the ecu sensed WOT it would open a valve and cycle that chilled coolant through the IC. I think the KC could work, but there's a while lot more engineering that needs to go into the system.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[Department Of Boost]

I've never heard any rave reviews on the Killer Chiller from any respected tuners or racers. If it really worked as well as claimed then every tuner in the country would be peddling them.

Pretty much this.

 

[rojizostang]

modification success!

Well, here's an update to this thread:

I decided to try another low dollar mod to my hodge podge heat exchanger loop. I bought two 5" spahl fans (315cfm each) and added them to the original roush heat exchanger that came with the kit. It was a little bit of work, and about $130 dollars in parts to add the fans, including new coolant in the loop. Early results appear to be impressive so far, but I don't have any significant driving time, so I'll just post a pic of the set up I installed, and post temperature data in a few days.