Hooked on cornering, please advise :)

[Captain_Stangin']

Hi guys, I come to you as a former drag racer, now hooked on turns after my first "race driver training" course at River's Edge in Mission, BC (http://www.sccbc.net).

My car is basically stock, I have just CAI and canned diablosport tune for power. For suspension, I have rod-end adjustable UCA with mount, fixed rod/poly LCAs, rod/poly PHB, PHB brace, and K-member brace with torque limiters. I have stock springs, dampers, and swaybars. Tires are factory 235/55/17 Pirelli all-seasons. Please offer recommendations on the following:

1. Brakes. Before heading to the track, I installed a set of 4 braided steel brake lines, EBC Red front pads, front powerslot rotors, and flushed the system with about 1.25 litres of Wilwood EXP 600. Rear brakes are stock rotors and pads. With this setup, brake fade is very apparent near the end of a 20 minute session. I got home today to check my pads, and the fronts are cooked, they feel "crunchy" when I press my fingers on the sides. I can actually see white flecks and small pieces coming off when I push on the pads. I will not be driving my car until I fix this. That said, do you guys think a big brake kit is really necessary? Could I just get a agent 47 brake cooling kit, and use a better pad compound?

2. Tires and rims. This is a very grey area for me. Is it possible to run a lower profile tire on a 17" rim? I worry that too small of a tire diameter will mess up the abs operation. Can you guys also give your thoughts on the "best" street tire/rim combination? I am on abit of a budget, but would like a nice light weight wheel/tire combination.

3. Suspension. While I would LOVE a griggs setup, I simply don't have that kind of money. I have searched the forum for opinions, but I guess I like to hear things from "the horse's mouth" so to speak. I plan to open track my Mustang as often as possible, but still be able to drive on the street occasionally. I am considering Pro-Kit, and Steeda Sport and Comp. spring sets. Please chime in on your thoughts about which would be the "best" for track usage. I am leaning towards the steeda springs, because I find that I tend to ride up on the curbing, and am worried that I may bottom out with the pro-kit. For sways, I think I will go to Mr. Strano for a set of adjustable front/rear bars. Koni yellows look like good shocks. Again, feel free to comment.

4. Weight reduction for a street car. I wish to keep stock appearing interior, (pl, pw, ac, factory stereo, good stuff . What can you guys recommend I do to save weight? How much weight could I reasonably save? My car is currently 3660 with me (160lbs) and 1/4 tank of gas.

Whew! That was a doozy. Thanks for listening guys.

 

[Vapour Trails]

Yes, the EBC reds are not a track pad and I wouldn't expect them to perform very well in that environment. There are a few good threads in this forum on pads, I suggest reading those.

Dampers are probably the area which you need to invest in most, the two favorites are Tokico D-specs and Koni "yellows" which are on backorder. I can recommend the sport springs to you, very liveable for a daily, linear rate, sensible drop. Comps are similar, with stiffer rates.

You are not going to find many high performance tires that are nearly stock height using a 17" rim. I would suggest moving to 18" wheels. Dunlop Star spec, Nitto Nt05, Bridgestone RE-11, Kuhmo XS are some of best current street rubber.

 

[pcdrj]

My $ .02

1.EBC Yellow would be better than Red but it's still not a track pad for a 3600# car. Hawk DTC60/70 are popular. They do take more time to heat up so they should be track only use. Cheap upgrade would be GT500 Brembo takeoffs which should run <$600. They will need 18" wheels that fit the Shleby (many do not). Brakes ducts are highly recommended.

2. Most folks run 18" but 17" will work with stock brakes and tires are cheaper. I liked KDW's for street/track use. Relatively lightweight wheels can be had for $150-$200.

3. Griggs does have the SS setup for about $3600 which includes coil-overs, torque arm, panhard, and relocation brackets. I would avoid mixing and matching components as many times it won't work well together. Sam Strano has other options as does Agent 47. Talk to them.

4. Weight watchers. J/K. Easy one is spare tire/jack. Beyond that it's tough to reduce significant weight on a daily driver. Wheels and tires will be a factor. K-member would be the next place I'd look. Lightweight seats are also a good place to reduce weight.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Welcome to your new addiction! Prepare to get a second mortgage, sell a couple of children and.... I kid! Kinda...

First off, I think you're doing the right thing, approaching this in a logical, thoughful manner. Here's a few of my recommendations:

1) Track time is the BEST mod dollar you can spend! Yes, you'll need tires and brakes, but after that focus on seat time on the track. A great driver can run the wheels off of anything that he gets into, but if you pour cubic dollars into the car, you'll never know if it's the hardware or your ability... Also, the more hardware you throw at the car, the less forgiving it will be. Trust me!

2) For the S197 chassis, what seems to be the best bet in tire size, unless you go nuts with the MasterCard, is either 275/40-17 or 275/35-18. Both really need a 9.5" wide wheel, so you're going to buy rims in either case. Shoot for light weight, at least as far as the wallet will take you... In 18", the 5zigen FN01R-C in +36 offset is light, fairly affordable, and looks pretty decent. I did mine (2 sets!) in flat black to hide the brake dust... Also look at the Enkei RP01, Philostang picked up a set, and the look really nice, AND they're light as well. not sure on the price, but that gives you options in both 5-spoke and multi-spoke looks. Tires are as mentioned: I personally like the Dunlop Direzza Star Specs, but there's been good press on the Nitto NT-05 as well, plus the RE-11 and XS are both "standards" in the street tire world.

3) Brakes: When you hit the open track, there is NO good dual-purpose pad. Street pads need to work from zero temp, but have limited upper temp capability. Race pads have great max operating temps, but need some heat in them to work properly. Plan on a second set of rotors and a dedicated set of track pads. If you stay stock, which WILL work, check with NewTakeOff.com for rotors, and for pads, look at Hawk HT10 up front and HP+ in the back to start. As you get more experience, and start braking more aggressively, you can step up into the DTC line, but they're a bit overkill (450* MINIMUM temp!) for "beginners." Ducts are just about mandatory for our cars, either the Agent47 or Quantum Motorsports are good places to start. I use FullTiltBoogie outlets and Butler inlets, but that's more than you really need to spend if you're not going totally hard-core. Yes, you can do a BBK of some sort, like the GT500 take offs (which I run) but your pad costs will increase, as will your rotor costs, and you need to worry about finding wheels that will clear... I ran for nearly three years with the stock brakes, and only moved to the Brembos once I went to R-compound tires, so there's no need to rush into that end of things.

4) Suspension: Start with what you have now! Go back and re-read my point number one, and then worry about the suspension hardware later. I will tell you that the poly bushings in your lower control arms will eventually start to disintegrate, but you'll have some time to worry about those. Honestly, you want either rubber or rod ends. If you go rod ends, plan on all the NVH you have now, times about four! If you're dead set on doing suspension hardware, I will second (third? fourth?) recommending Sam Strano... Dude knows what he's talking about, and has national autocross championships to back it up! I would skip right past all the spring and shock packages, though, and just suck it up and go straight to coilovers when you're ready to make the move. I bought AST, but KW also makes a very nice package (Clubsport) that is a little more "track" oriented than "street" oriented. I'm sure Sam will have other options as well.

5) Weight reduction: Our cars are portly, kind of like tutu-wearing hippos, if you know what I mean. There really isn't any "easy" way to drop weight, if you want to keep the car street friendly. You can pull odds-and-ends (brake backing plates, axle damper weights if you have them, air conditioner, catalytic converters, the stereo, rear seat, swap the front seats for race seats, etc.), but unless you want to start seriously gutting the car, you'll be stuck around that 3600lb plateau. I did the rear-seat delete, aluminum race seats up front with a rollbar, axle weights, backing shields, and a Steeda race cowl (9lbs right there!) and I'm running about 30lbs heavier than you are, with about the same body mass...

6) THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: See number one...

 

[Captain_Stangin']

Thank you gentlemen for your input, it is much appreciated

SoundGuyDave, I hear you on #1. At the very last session of the day, I was feeling very confident, trailing a Evo X very closely for many laps. It was disconcerting to have to give the point-by to a 8th gen Civic Si, and even more so to see the Evo driver have to do the same thing, on the same lap!

I will get tires and brakes first, in that order. Then I will likely hit up some more open track or training events. I will make that Civic point me by!

 

[ArizonaGT]

GT500 front brakes won't fit a 17" wheel if you're intending to stay with those. Get rid of those Redstuffs...not nearly enough. Yellowstuff for sure to start. Good call on already flushing out the stock fluid. Bleed your brakes before each track day if possible.

Good selection of tires in both 17" and 18". Tires make a LOT of difference.
Good dual purpose street/track tires: Dunlop Direzza Star Specs, Nitto NT-05.

As Dave said, SEAT TIME, not mods will yield the most result per $$ spent. Mods should be to bridge gaps you can't close with seat time (like brakes that won't stop the car).

 

[Random Asshole]

buy some carbotech pads and some kumho ecsta xs tires, then drive the snot out of it. I ran them in 17s and 18s and absolutely love them.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

SoundGuyDave, I hear you on #1. At the very last session of the day, I was feeling very confident, trailing a Evo X very closely for many laps. It was disconcerting to have to give the point-by to a 8th gen Civic Si, and even more so to see the Evo driver have to do the same thing, on the same lap!

I will get tires and brakes first, in that order. Then I will likely hit up some more open track or training events. I will make that Civic point me by!

And that, right there, is why seat time trumps all mods... There's NO reason that the Civic should have been able to catch and pass a Mustang and an Evo, except that he out-drove you. All that should do is light a fire under you to get better: nail the line more consistently, get on the throttle earlier, brake later and harder (hence the need for "race" pads!), and work on carrying as much speed as you can out of the corner. If you do that, the Civic will be forced to yield... Also, if you get the opportunity, get an instructor in the car with you, an outside critique of your techniques will pay dividends like you won't believe.

 

[Flash_of_Yellow]

___SoundGuyDave__



Always informative, thanks Dave

 

[Flash_of_Yellow]

Captain Stang, another track that many BC people come check out is Pacific Raceways down here in Washington. I can attest that we get some really good instruction down here (actually, instructors are in all cars when on track, unless you are in A class). It's a bit of a hike though.

You can find events using Motorsportreg.com. If you make it down and need a place to crash part way, I'm about an hour north of the track and can have a spare garage spot for another stang . Just offering.

I'm attending all of the BMW track days. Only the BMW and Porsche clubs have monthly track days, and the BMW club doesn't require you to own a BMW to attend

Congrats on the new addiction... Just FYI, I started last year with a stock stang, and now check out my signature, so it does get addicting. Check here often in the for sale sections and you can find some amazing deals on half used stuff. I got all my mods for much less than new. But as stated above, best to use your car and find the limits, then mod the car to bump that limit up rather than go out with a car that is super modified, and ultimately unforgiving when you find that limit.

 

[Flash_of_Yellow]

4. Weight watchers. J/K. Easy one is spare tire/jack. Beyond that it's tough to reduce significant weight on a daily driver. Wheels and tires will be a factor. K-member would be the next place I'd look. Lightweight seats are also a good place to reduce weight.

Weight reduction is hard. The easy spots to remove weight is the rear (spare tire, jack, rear seats which just pop out, half tank of gas, etc). But the problem is that this is a nose heavy car and now we're removing more weight from the rear. I've come to respect rear end grip, especially since at Pacific Raceways, turn 1 is notorious for flipping the rear ends of cars, and at this point you're always at 115 mph or more (meaning.. it doesn't end well). If you are serious about pulling weight, go for it but buy a cheap battery relocation kit at least and toss that batt in the truck. Then start thinking of lighter front end parts (radiator mounts, k member) which all costs "cubic dollars".

 

[Stangmeister9]

another thing if i may add, is talk to other mustang drivers at the track. don't talk to porsche owners or miata owners their advice, although correct, doesn't pertain to a mustang driver. their lines may not be the same, braking points will differ and following thier advice will do nothing to make you faster, ride with other drivers of solid axel cars with similiar setups (brakes and tires) and make mental notes of what is working for them. in the end experience at the track as mentioned before will be the ultimate modification that you can make, and if your FICA score allows it ask for a credit extension! hehe

 

[Captain_Stangin']

Thanks again for the advice you guys, I will do my best to absorb it

Flash of Yellow, thanks for your offer, hopefully when I have more experience and money (especially money!) I may take you up on it.

Right now I am just in the process of looking for a good wheel and tire combo.....trying to decide between 17x9.5 or 18x9.5.....not sure if I will be going to a big brake kit anytime soon, I may just go for cooling ducts and better pads, see how that works out.

 

[Sleeper_08]

An interesting article about brake cooling at the extreme

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2010/3/10553.html

 

[Captain_Stangin']

Sleeper, that article is very interesting, I will research good brake cooling solutions. Tires are my main focus right now, as my bald stock front tires were downright scary in the wet, when on the track.

What do you guys think about these:

http://www.1010tires.com/wheel.asp?wheelbrand=5-Zigen&wheelmodel=FN01R-C+Hot+Version+-+Face+Polish

I'm looking at the 17x10 +35mm offset. I wish to put either 275/40/17 or 285/40/17 tires on it.....likely the Kumho XS, or perhaps the NT05s, if I'm going for 275mm wide tires.....What'd you guys think?

 

[Sleeper_08]

Here is what I'm going with for this season as track only wheels and tires

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30166&highlight=enkei

This thread has some pics of the wheels and tires

http://mustangforums.com/forum/s197-handling-section/589824-enkei-pf01s-and-nitto-nt01s.html

The 18s allow you to move to larger brakes in the future.

 

[Captain_Stangin']

Here is what I'm going with for this season as track only wheels and tires

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30166&highlight=enkei

This thread has some pics of the wheels and tires

http://mustangforums.com/forum/s197-handling-section/589824-enkei-pf01s-and-nitto-nt01s.html

The 18s allow you to move to larger brakes in the future.

PF01s look gorgeous. My only problem with 18"s is the price of the tires is much higher than comparable 17" tires

 

[Flash_of_Yellow]

PF01s look gorgeous. My only problem with 18"s is the price of the tires is much higher than comparable 17" tires

Ha... I think it was mentioned above that this is not a cheap addiction.

I would seriously go with the 18's. If you go with 17's, you'll be limited to stock brakes and the tires you use, assuming you'll try to keep the same diameter, will have roughly 1/2 inch higher sidewalls which allow the tires to flex under lateral acceleration.

 

[DusterRT]

Steve Poe managed to stuff 14" brakes under 17's using a couple different methods; one was using a smaller Brembo F40 caliper, and he also managed to do it with (I think) a Stoptech kit with the caliper adapter shaved down slightly to bring the caliper slightly closer to the wheel centerline. Basically it's something that could work with any BBK with a radial mount caliper, depending on caliper design and the wheels obviously.

Where there's a will, there's a way..basically boils down to creativity, money, or both.

 

[ArizonaGT]

If you go with 17's, you'll be limited to stock brakes and the tires you use, assuming you'll try to keep the same diameter, will have roughly 1/2 inch higher sidewalls which allow the tires to flex under lateral acceleration.

That's not necessarily a bad thing; more sidewall (to a point) means you have more effective spring at the wheel.

Steve Poe managed to stuff 14" brakes under 17's using a couple different methods; one was using a smaller Brembo F40 caliper, and he also managed to do it with (I think) a Stoptech kit with the caliper adapter shaved down slightly to bring the caliper slightly closer to the wheel centerline. Basically it's something that could work with any BBK with a radial mount caliper, depending on caliper design and the wheels obviously.

Where there's a will, there's a way..basically boils down to creativity, money, or both.

I'd just spend the cash on the 18s and not worry about some Jerry-Rigged homemade engineering solution...but that's just me