I Think Barton Just Won

[Department Of Boost]

If the throw reduction is still above 40 something percent then it's still not doing much by way of saving your trans. George has said several times that he keeps his so low (in the low 20%) because anything above that is hard on the synchros and makes it notchy.

I'll stick with my race spec. I love this damn shifter lol

How would the throw length effect the synchros? I don't understand?

 

[Boaisy]

Considering I already have a Barton, I would jump on this. However, since it involves a driveshaft brace/loop to mount this, it wouldn't work for me. I already have a BMR one in place, and would rather swap to MGW's design over this. A couple of friends here ended up installing the MGW in their's, and I like how it feels.

 

[Norm Peterson]

How would the throw length effect the synchros? I don't understand?

Unless you actively slow your hand motion down, it speeds up every synchro engagement. The shift forks still have to move the same distance and they now move faster relative to your hand speed. Nobody gets the revs matched perfectly every time on either upshifts or downshifts, so shortening up the throw for you ends up making the synchros work a little harder almost all the time, and you'll be more likely to 'beat' them before they've got all the internal bits in sync with each other.


Norm

 

[Department Of Boost]

Unless you actively slow your hand motion down, it speeds up every synchro engagement. The shift forks still have to move the same distance and they now move faster relative to your hand speed. Nobody gets the revs matched perfectly every time on either upshifts or downshifts, so shortening up the throw for you ends up making the synchros work a little harder almost all the time, and you'll be more likely to 'beat' them before they've got all the internal bits in sync with each other.


Norm

Thanks for explaining that.

 

[05gtowner]

I think the 05-10's are a different animal. I know a lot of people choose a "short throw" because they want less deflection and less chance of the third gear lock out associated with the 3650. The short throw is just a bonus. But there are a couple of ways to deal with the third gear lockout issue that don't involve a shifter. I think the point is get what works, feels and accomplishes the end users goals.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I couldn't give two figs really. I've never been one who felt they needed a short throw shifter/short handle. All of this "short throw this, short throw that" doesn't do a thing for me.

Me either, really. It's short enough for easy shifts back and forth between 3rd and 4th on a road course HPDE where I really don't want to be beating the synchros and getting any grinding sounds.

What I do want is more stable positioning for the shifter relative to the bits inside the gearbox that it's connected to (part of why I'm following this thread).


Norm

 

[Chiron]

Aside from the added driveshaft loop, is there any real benefit over an MGW?

 

[05gtowner]

I think this is like Pepsi vs Coke. Get whatever one suits you best.

 

[Department Of Boost]

EDIT

 

[Department Of Boost]

EDIT

 

[eighty6gt]

A lot of the third gear lock out problems are IMO the synchro rings wearing out/failing basically immediately.

I've been into a few T5's. That friction material goes out and it gets bad enough that the cones of the slider turn blue.

 

[BMR Tech]

The only thing I have to point out is that having a DS Loop mounted to the trans like that, is not a very good idea, IMO.

We have, and friends of mine have, experienced transmission tailshaft / housing failures....and it is not pretty if you do not have a properly mounted DS Loop. (according to NHRA, it must mount to the chassis via 1/4" thick crossmember)

So for handling applications, I think it is great. But for NHRA, I do not believe it meets NHRA spec. I could be wrong, but the rules are pretty clear to me.

 

[05gtowner]

Maybe Pepsi vs Mountain Dew. But not Pepsi vs Coke.

Nah one in the same. Pepsi makes the dew.

I still think the right answer for the 11-14's is a t56 magnum.

 

[MGW]

IMO the MGW could have been done better. I don't like that the shift shaft doubles as a mount. It's probably fine for "X" period of time. But eventually the bushing in the shifter and the bushing in the trans will go oval. And I'm pretty sure you need to tear the trans down to get to the bushing/seal.

Also the MGW doesn't spread the mounting points as far as the Barton does. That means there is more potential for flex. Add the potential of flex to one of the mounts being a "sliding" shaft and you have something that will not be as positive as the Barton. Am I splitting hairs? Maybe.

You are way off in your assumption of the center linkage being a weight bearing component which I CLEARLY debunk after Barton tried to make the same assumption.

We replaced the center linkage completely instead of using the factory garbage linkage because it binds and flexes. To be a TRUE top loader design , the center linkage should not have multiple joints in it. It should be a solid rod straight out of the selector rod in the tail housing.

It just amazes me that people really think this design is somehow so much more rigid than the RACE SPEC. I engineered this thing so solid that there is absolutely zero chance of it failing. The triangulation of the support arms in my opinion are actually a much safer design in terms of bolts backing out or structural rigidity. The harder you push on it the more force is put into the trans to hold it up .

If you watch the video i posted you can CLEARLY see that the center rod has about 1/4 up and down free play and almost an inch and a half left to right. So it absolutely does not play ANY role in supporting the transmission. I had a friend down from SVT Performance with me when i was designing it and he actually took some pics of my standing on the shifter mounted to the trans and jumping up and down on it.

And as far as safety loop...We have been working with BMR who has developed a Race Spec compatible safety loop that is actually NMRA legal!! something these loops are NOT. BMR is in the business of making structural loops and cross members and this is the option i would pick for sure!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5CvOBauUc8

check out at about 4 minutes in....



George

 

[MGW]

also , in response to your comment about basing our sales pitch on others throw wearing out the shfiter...

That is not what we ever referred to...We engineered the throw reduction after doing A LOT of testing and working with the transmission manuf. to determine what throw would give the best performance but not FAIL the synchros.

Being involved with shifter design for 15 years has taught me one important rule. Not all transmissions are equal and not all can be modded the same.
If there were no physical limitations then we would all have 75 percent throw reduction shifters!!!

It does no good to shorten the throw so it feels like a champ parked in a parking lot at a trade show if you are grinding gears and blowing out synchros on the track or street.

George

 

[Boaisy]

The only thing I have to point out is that having a DS Loop mounted to the trans like that, is not a very good idea, IMO.

We have, and friends of mine have, experienced transmission tailshaft / housing failures....and it is not pretty if you do not have a properly mounted DS Loop. (according to NHRA, it must mount to the chassis via 1/4" thick crossmember)

So for handling applications, I think it is great. But for NHRA, I do not believe it meets NHRA spec. I could be wrong, but the rules are pretty clear to me.

I'm glad I have the BMR braces and loops then

 

[Department Of Boost]

You are way off in your assumption of the center linkage being a weight bearing component ....


......The triangulation of the support arms....

You refer to it as having "triangulation". If the center "shaft" is not load baering where is the third mounting point?

 

[irishpwr46]

i wish there was a race spec for the 05-10

 

[MGW]

You refer to it as having "triangulation". If the center "shaft" is not load baering where is the third mounting point?

The top arm and the 2 strut arms work just like a tripod. The linkage rod could actually be completely removed and have zero affect on the structural design of the shifter.





George

 

[Department Of Boost]

The top arm and the 2 strut arms work just like a tripod. The linkage rod could actually be completely removed and have zero affect on the structural design of the shifter.





George

Is there load on the linkage arm? If not I retract my critique.

Have a nice day.