Koni & Steeda vs Track pack at local track (NHMS)

[tim]

I guess all this to say you've spent a grand on suspension and just dropped something not far from that on those RS3s; spend $200 more in brake pads and $15 more in brake fluid and I think you'll find the results well worth it.

My Miata warned me there'd be days like this!

The HP+ were the compromise that i need to drive the car to the track. They have to last the rest of the season (only another month or two in New England) but, ok, ok, next season i will put Carbotechs on! (I'm prepared to swap rotors before/after track days too)

 

[tim]

Back to OP's original post- were you on the same tires? I wouldn't expect you to go faster unless you were on better tires or added power....you will love those RS3's.

Some real track pads would help A TON too!!!

same tires, same power, same brake fade, same lap times.

Can't wait to get the RS3's out there - they make a difference in 1st gear launches, and brake at 1.05g just testing the brakes on the street, but that's all i can tell so far on the street.

 

[DPE]

You can drive to and from the track just fine on DTC-60s or Carbotech XP12s. I know that from personal experience. Race pads of that ilk technically don't 'work' until they reach 300-400 degrees or so, but in my experience the car stops just fine in normal road driving. Maybe on a really cold day you'd need to plan ahead a bit, but I've never had a problem.

As for swapping rotors etc., this just hasn't been an issue for me. I've run various compounds on track and then swapped back in OEM or aggressive street pads (on a variety of cars) and just never really had much trouble. Some folks seem to have problems, others don't. But you may get lucky and just be able to swap back and forth with Brembo OEM pads (or whatever street pads you want to run) and whatever race pad you run and be fine.

 

[Norm Peterson]

My Miata warned me there'd be days like this!

The HP+ were the compromise that i need to drive the car to the track. They have to last the rest of the season (only another month or two in New England) but, ok, ok, next season i will put Carbotechs on! (I'm prepared to swap rotors before/after track days too)

When you switch over to Carbotech pads, you generally shouldn't have to swap rotors as well. That said, I ran on XP8's (4.6L car) for most of the past year, including all last winter in NJ down near Philly. Yeah, they're a bit noisy from time to time and they do dust some, but they still bit good enough all winter once there was any heat in them at all . . . and they're a hell of a lot gentler on the rotors than HP+. As in far less wear in 5000 street miles plus 5 track days than the HP+ inflicted on a different set of rotors in barely over a couple thousand street miles.

I found I'd overheated the XP8's, and stepped up to XP10's (on the same rotors). So far, over ~1500 street miles and a 7-session track day the XP10's are providing much the same noise/dust experience as I had with the XP8's, with maybe just a little softer initial bite when cool. But they're still better than OE or Hawk HPS under similar circumstances. Time will tell how well they cope with the cooler weather that's coming and whether I'll want to pick up something else for the winter.

RBF600 went into the system when the XP10's went on.

What I found ↓↓↓ . . . less than half worn, with at least 0.28" friction material out of ~0.43" remaining on all 8 pads. No more track days for those pads.

Norm

 

[NDSP]

What I found ↓↓↓ . . . less than half worn, with at least 0.28" friction material out of ~0.43" remaining on all 8 pads. No more track days for those pads.

Norm

I've overheated mine and I do have similar apprearing cracks in my pads. I have to admit, I've continued using them. What am I risking? I only put them on for track days.

 

[Further]

I've never experience fade with HP+ and ATE. (I have CDC brake cooling ducts) They didn't last very long, but they didn't eat my rotors like HT-10, DTC 60's and DTC 70's.

Here's Mr. Hawk, Mike Skeen showing me how it's done with these woefully inadequate pads, haha:

http://youtu.be/MWIpGHLjXJs

Maybe VIR is different in the number of hard braking zones? We've already established I am slow. I went away from these pads for awhile based on the advice from this forum, but got into a pinch and had to put them on for this particular track day.

Certainly these are at the bottom of the Hawk racing compounds, but they are at least on the same page. I guess it depends on the driver, too.

I love that video. Skeen is the man.

I've tried HP+, HT14/10, DTC 70/60, and DTC 60/60 on the track. Like Apex, I haven't had much of a fade problem, but I'm still learning to late brake (broke a little late today and went off), so I'm probably not pushing the limits completely.

Having said that, the DTC 60/60 is my favorite on slicks or street tires (Rivals). They have a good bite, definitely won't fade, and honestly, are very streetable. You're going to chew through your rotors one way or the other in a big high HP, heavy car anyway, so why not street them. They all squeak on the street, even the HP plus. If I'm a month or more between events, I'll switch out to some street pads. I've used HP plus, but may just go OEM.

The HP plus have a pretty low working temp, so you will not be able to push these on the track. Mike Skeen records a nice 2:12 on them, but he's unbelievable. Also, I've used ATE blue exclusively, but that point is moot since it is not available anymore unless you can find a place with a stash (go a couple of liters at VIR today).

Also, keep in mind, driving and braking hard on the track, you'll get 4 track days on your pads (2 events).

 

[tim]

Update after Lapping Day at Circuit Tremblant. Wow, this circuit is way faster than NHMS - about 130mph on the back straight, 1g+ corners at WOT in 3rd and 4th gears! Awesome.

The weather was cooler, about 70, and absolutely perfect for lapping. The changes to the Mustang for this event were: brake ducts and Enkei PF01's with 285/35 RS3's.

Seriously, with the brake ducts and the 285/35s, the car was amazing.

 

[Arustik]

When you switch over to Carbotech pads, you generally shouldn't have to swap rotors as well. That said, I ran on XP8's (4.6L car) for most of the past year, including all last winter in NJ down near Philly. Yeah, they're a bit noisy from time to time and they do dust some, but they still bit good enough all winter once there was any heat in them at all . . . and they're a hell of a lot gentler on the rotors than HP+. As in far less wear in 5000 street miles plus 5 track days than the HP+ inflicted on a different set of rotors in barely over a couple thousand street miles.

I found I'd overheated the XP8's, and stepped up to XP10's (on the same rotors). So far, over ~1500 street miles and a 7-session track day the XP10's are providing much the same noise/dust experience as I had with the XP8's, with maybe just a little softer initial bite when cool. But they're still better than OE or Hawk HPS under similar circumstances. Time will tell how well they cope with the cooler weather that's coming and whether I'll want to pick up something else for the winter.

RBF600 went into the system when the XP10's went on.

What I found ↓↓↓ . . . less than half worn, with at least 0.28" friction material out of ~0.43" remaining on all 8 pads. No more track days for those pads.

Norm

Good post. I run my Carbotechs on street and track and they're fine. They squeal (because racecar) and I just laugh.

 

[Apex50]

Update after Lapping Day at Circuit Tremblant. Wow, this circuit is way faster than NHMS - about 130mph on the back straight, 1g+ corners at WOT in 3rd and 4th gears! Awesome.

The weather was cooler, about 70, and absolutely perfect for lapping. The changes to the Mustang for this event were: brake ducts and Enkei PF01's with 285/35 RS3's.

Seriously, with the brake ducts and the 285/35s, the car was amazing.

Glad to hear it! Those wheels look sharp.

Looking forward to seeing comparison times at your original track. Please keep us posted.

(Did think of one other benefit to adjustables- tuning front to rear weight transfer. How's handling? Oversteer/understeer?)

 

[tim]

Glad to hear it! Those wheels look sharp.

Looking forward to seeing comparison times at your original track. Please keep us posted.

(Did think of one other benefit to adjustables- tuning front to rear weight transfer. How's handling? Oversteer/understeer?)

Thanks - i think they look cool, even without the center caps.

Hopefully the comparison will come on Oct 11th.

The car is well balanced, it just depends how i drive it. If i come in too hot, i can make it understeer, but it will oversteer anytime my right foot commands it to.

I have turned advanced trac completely off for a couple of sessions and driven a little slower, but forced much more rear end sliding - it's a blast. But ordinarily, i leave the car in Sport mode for safety's sake. No one is paying me to HPDE.

 

[sheizasosay]

The car is well balanced, it just depends how i drive it. If i come in too hot, i can make it understeer, but it will oversteer anytime my right foot commands it to.

Your setup and car balance definitly should match your driving style, but I would not try to optimize a car to handle its best with bad driving.

With the above in mind, your front crontrol arm bushings are going to have the largest effect on reducing understeer from a cooked entry. The bushings squish and change the tire's geometries and you wind up understeering because of these changes.

While fooling around, I have felt that bushings from behind the steering wheel. A purposely cooked entry that gave a brief push and once it regained traction, the new front grip made the rear want to step out mildly. In my mind, the time it took for that bushing to squish was about the same amount of time it took for my car to understeer and transition to oversteer.

Edited for grammar.

 

[tim]

Not saying a mustang gt is faster than a Ford gt, but, still cool to see a gt on track. Even cooler pass one!
http://youtu.be/jcfoo_kJuIo?t=35

 

[tim]

Your setup and car balance definitly should match your driving style, but I would not try to optimize a car to handle its best with bad driving.

With the above in mind, your front crontrol arm bushings are going to have the largest effect on reducing understeer from a cooked entry. The bushings squish and change the tire's geometries and you wind up understeering because of these changes.

While fooling around, I have felt that bushings from behind the steering wheel. A purposely cooked entry that gave a brief push and once it regained traction, the new front grip made the rear want to step out mildly. In my mind, the time it took for that bushing to squish was about the same amount of time it took for my car to understeer and transition to oversteer.

Edited for grammar.

I hear what you are saying, you might be right about the front end, if idk.

I can make the car understeer, oversteer, or be neutral, it's enough for me for now. Being able to do so makes me feel like a good driver, in fact.

 

[todcp]

Carbotech on my car also.
The Carbotech techs recommended keeping the recommended rear XP 12 on all the time and just switch the front from Bobcats to XP 21 for the track day. Ok to drive the XP 21 to the track even though noisy. They recommended the XP 21 for a its longer life vs cost. The rear XP 12's are quiet on the street.
The advantage to this setup is the front is a very simple change of pads and rears don't have to be fooled with. And the street fronts from Carbotech are same type material so no need to change the front rotors.

I have five track days with Dot R tires and JLT cooling ducts and the pads have plenty of life. On the rear I removed the brake rotor covers. Performance is terrific for me. I run Motul 600.

 

[sheizasosay]

I hear what you are saying, you might be right about the front end, if idk.

I can make the car understeer, oversteer, or be neutral, it's enough for me for now. Being able to do so makes me feel like a good driver, in fact.

If you can make the car do what you want it to, then that is skilled driving.

 

[sheizasosay]

I can make the car understeer, oversteer, or be neutral, it's enough for me for now. Being able to do so makes me feel like a good driver, in fact.

You have oversteer with throttle, understeer for cooked entry and then what? When does it lose traction on all four wheels at the same time? Mid-corner?

 

[kcbrown]

You have oversteer with throttle, understeer for cooked entry and then what? When does it lose traction on all four wheels at the same time? Mid-corner?

Probably with just the right application of throttle, if the oversteer breakaway is progressive.

 

[tim]

You have oversteer with throttle, understeer for cooked entry and then what? When does it lose traction on all four wheels at the same time? Mid-corner?

All I'm saying is the car behaves good enough for my skill level, i don't need to change anything about the suspension at this time.

But, it makes me wonder what you and others experience - are you saying every corner you take exhibits the sponginess, then compression, then oversteer? If not, what then?

 

[tim]

Ok, here's the next comparison @ my home track, NHMS.
Changes to the car this time out compared to last time:
- Enkei PF01 18x10.5 with Hankook RS3s 285/35.
- Brake cooling ducts

The difference is significant!
Max G's left turn: 1.50 g's (0.12 more g's)
Max G's right turn: 1.23 g's (0.16 more g's)
Min lap speed: 35.9 (2.3 mph faster)
Max lap spped: 112.1 (1.7 mph faster)
Lap time: 1:20.428 (3.041 seconds faster)

yup, should have changed wheels and tires first.

The brakes held up just fine. But today was only about 75 degrees, not really hot. Tires reached a max of about 170 per my laser pyrometer after reaching the paddock. That temp was a lot higher than the smaller PZeros.

Here's another interesting bit: the thing holding back lap times now, is being able to stay firmly planted in the Recaros. There's a lot of g'force and using just the stock seat belt is not enough to hold me in place. I was moving around enough to make several areas really hard to settle both my butt and the car then get on the brakes exactly where i wanted.

Here's the data:

 

[csamsh]

Yeah...nice gains there. 3 seconds is a lot.

Time for some real seats!