Modern Muscle Cars?

marcspaz

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Hey guys, over on the Challenger forum, someone got an idea to start a thread to define what a Muscle Car is. Some are saying the modern cars like the Mustang and the Challenger are not muscle cars because of parts or assembly being done out of country or not meeting the original "concepts" behind the birth of muscle cars.

I don't believe you can really define what a Muscle Car is when it come to the car itself. because I don't believe the car itself is what makes a muscle car. I did, however, try to capture the spirit of the era, and I wanted to share it with you. I wonder how many of you will agree.

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The truth is, today's muscle cars don't meet the true definition of a "Muscle Car". Or do they?

As mentioned in the first post, a Muscle Car is an American made car.

Typically a two door, though that was not a requirement. The actual requirement was to take the smallest car they had and put the biggest motor they could in it. This is what "Hot Rodders" were doing prior to the American car companies copying after market. This was also the expressed desire of Ford when they put the Mustang together.

Speaking of the Mustang... some people say cars like the Mustang and Corvette are not muscle cars at all... but rather categories called Pony Cars (Mustang) and Super Cars (Corvette). Me personally, I think Pony Cars are muscle cars (Muscle Car Club agrees), but they would fall on the lighter side of the category, as they were much more nimble on corners and did not have a big block motor in them, at least not in the common production vehicles. Though some limited production Mustangs had engines such as the 428ci, most cars were equipped with a 289-302.

Another reason I say I feel Pony Cars are muscle cars is because, the original Challenger R/T was a Pony Car.

Also, a Muscle Car must be rear-wheel drive.

A Muscle Car is also designed for straight line speed.

Another big aspect was the car had to be affordable, AKA easily obtainable by the average American. High performance cars like the Corvette and the Ford Le Mans GT40 are considered Super Cars and Sports Cars, not muscle cars. Mostly due to being cost prohibitive.

Many will say if it is not built in America, with American parts and by an American company... it is not a Muscle Car. The Muscle Car is supposed to embrace, pay tribute and salute American engineering as well as being considered a signature staple of the American culture. Unfortunately, that culture ended in the late 70's thanks to the EPA, ever encroaching regulatory over-reach of the political Left and either total buy outs or merging of American car companies with foreign interests, leading to a massive outsourcing of assembly and part manufacturing out of country.

With all that said... at a minimum, we can certainly call modern muscle cars amazing tributes to an era long gone. Or we can say we have been a part of the rebirth of the modern Muscle Car era. After all, taking the "Made in America" part out of it, they still embrace, pay tribute and salute American culture. After all, isn't that really what its all about?

Maybe that's why people can't really define what a Muscle Car is. It's not a thing, its an American culture. True to the founding and growth of America, it really can't be just any one thing, but a collection of feelings that says, we are Americans and we are proud!

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Department Of Boost

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Mercedes C63 AMG Black = Muscle car.

Mercedes-Benz-Mercedes-C63-AMG-BLACK-SERIES_50732.jpg
 

Norm Peterson

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At a guess, too many of the people who are trying to define what "muscle cars" are, weren't around for the originals, so the various terms that were established back then have no gut-level meaning. I get that it may annoy Camaro and Challenger owners to use the term "pony car" out of that term's obvious Mustang connotation, but I don't remember that being a big sticking point back in the 1960's and early 1970's.

Elsewhere fairly recently, the pony car's definitive features were listed as U.S. domestic/long hood/short deck/two doors/2+2 seating. The powertrain is irrelevant, as are any other options and performance capabilities that some people try to use to redefine pony cars as sports cars. As a term, "pony car" has greater flexibility in that it can include variations closer to muscle (Hellcat, GT500, ZL1) and others closer to sports (GT350, Z/28, Boss, 1LE).

Really, it's the "muscle cars" themselves that are on the verge of extinction. As intermediate-chassis sedans with real back seats and full 4 or 5 passenger seating fitted with the company's larger V8 engines fitted, all that's left now are the Chargers (in Hemi trim) and Chevy's SS. That would put the "Muscle Car Club" with their backs against the wall and in danger of becoming relevant only in a historic sense (a little like the way antiques have been perceived). So of course they're going to grab onto anything that comes close and call it muscle.

The 1979 Chevy Malibu I used to own came closer to being "muscle" than any generation of Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, or any of the ponycar nameplates that have disappeared.


Norm
 
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psfracer

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A "muscle" car to me was a powerful engine stuck into a smaller car that was also somewhat affordable and NOT luxurious. Everything centered around performance for straight line acceleration (1/4 mile).


Now I know what you are thinking....most cars in the 60s were absolutely huge when compared to today. But all of the "serious" muscle cars were in fact 2 doors, and the "lighter versions" of other models that were available. Plymouth Road Runner comes to mind, the 1964 GTO, even the 64 Thunderbolt Fairlane.

I definitely agree that muscle cars includes a sub-section called Pony cars, but to say a 428 CJ mustang or a Shelby GT500 or GT350 was not a muscle car is not accurate.

Todays muscle cars are in fact different. Technology has made these cars more practical. No longer is a muscle car just for a straight line, many can turn also. Power, more efficient, quieter (to some's disappointment), and more technology, comfort and weight (ugh). But make no mistake, when you look at the #1 aspect of a "muscle" cars mission---the 1/4 mile, todays muscle cars are the best ever. Do they have the character of the past cars? Maybe, maybe not. I suspect that answer will vary wildly based on the age of the person you are talking to.

I thought, no, todays muscle cars did not have the "character" of the past cars. Ergo stuff a 598 cid BBF in a modern car.
 
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mavisky

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Mercedes C63 AMG Black = Muscle car.

Mercedes-Benz-Mercedes-C63-AMG-BLACK-SERIES_50732.jpg

Couldn't agree more. A car doesn't have to be manufactured in the USA to be a muscle car. Are sports cars only british? Are supercars only Italian? Of course not.

BTW half the cars built in Australia would qualify as muscle cars too.
 

johnnyv8

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I can't really speak of the history of the muscle car/pony car. However, I do think its a segment in the "sports car" market. The stereotypes for a muscle car is a big v8, rwd, 2doors- Usually affordable (which is why the AMG might not be classified as a muscle car). Its almost like an American version of a grand touring car, however, I agree, a muscle car doesn't have to be American.
 

claudermilk

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Yep, I think you got it. DOB's addition also fits. It seems the Germans (and Aussies) get the whole muscle car thing where other import brands don't. Especially seeing as the SS really is just a Holden with Chevy badging.
 

JEWC_Motorsports

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I believe the muscle car name died a long time ago. Chevy II annd the Ford Falcon come to my mind as 2 of the greatest straightline performers. Muscle cars were cheap and easy to build.
 

d3vst8r96gt

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Speed is speed ... the title or maker is irrelevant to me ... While I do love mustangs, the biggest factor for me is cost and even the mustangs are getting a little crazy. Me personally

Affordable
V8
Fast
- manual shifting availible (prefered not required)
 

marcspaz

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For the guys saying that the muscle car doesn't have to be American... I would agree with that. But for it to be an American Muscle Car (American Muscle)... it does need to be American.

I read that when the original muscle car (originally called Super Cars and Sport Cars) era started in the US in the 50', there was the same automotive revolution happening in Europe. Many of those cars were American car though. Even today, the Falcon is marketed in Europe and it is one bad ass ride. Essentially a 4 door Mustang GT.
 

marcspaz

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This is true... but it is still exported to Europe. The point of me mentioning that isn't to discount Australia, but to highlight the fact that the muscle car era occurred in the UK the same time it happened in the US. Even though gas is insanely high over there, Europeans still love muscle cars.
 

fdjizm

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Mercedes C63 AMG Black = Muscle car.

Mercedes-Benz-Mercedes-C63-AMG-BLACK-SERIES_50732.jpg

That's a luxury car.
IMO modern muscle cars are the modern muscle cars... challenger, mustang, camaro. They are not muscle cars, they are modern muscle cars as compared to an average commuter/economy/van/truck or sedan.
 

cbass

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This is the same argument as "what is fast?"
Some guys think a 15 second 1/4 mile car is fast.
Some guys think a 10 second 1/4 mile car isn't.
Some guys think going 85 or 90 is fast.
Some guys set cruise control at 140.

It's one of the reasons some cars sold so well. They blurred the lines. I like my car, and I don't think of it as a muscle car, or a sports car, or a pony car. It's just a fun car.
 

johnnyv8

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This is the same argument as "what is fast?"
Some guys think a 15 second 1/4 mile car is fast.
Some guys think a 10 second 1/4 mile car isn't.
Some guys think going 85 or 90 is fast.
Some guys set cruise control at 140.

It's one of the reasons some cars sold so well. They blurred the lines. I like my car, and I don't think of it as a muscle car, or a sports car, or a pony car. It's just a fun car.

There is some truth to your statement!
 

Fullboogie

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I grew up right after all the muscle cars went to market, so my 15 year old buddies and I drove 71 'Cudas (me), 69 Firebirds, GTO's, Chevelles, etc. as our first cars. I miss those old cars and would dearly love to find another 'Cuda, but prices are beyond my reach for nice ones. The phrase "muscle car" has traditionally been limited to cars of the '60's and very early 70's anyway, just like "hot rod" and "lead sled" have their own era-specific cars. I think what we have now is unique in many respects - a blending of 1/4 mile machine, handling car, relative luxury. Don't really care what it's called.
 

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