New Motor - Piston Ring Break-In/Seating???

[crownaviation]

^^^

I would give you 10:1 odds... They will say not their fault

 

[AutoXRacer]

New doesn't necessarily = assembled properly. They are FRPP not OEM correct? It's a simple a quick thing to do that could identify the source without the need to pull the motor. If all looks good afterwards then you still got a borescope that comes in handy for tons of projects around the house!

They are FRPP heads = OEM.
Now whether they are manufactured by a different vendor is beyond me, but FRPP is OEM.

If I understand correctly they were new blanks that were assembled by the shop. Not the cnc heads.

Thats right, they are FRPP stage 1 which is basically stock heads, with stock valves, springs, etc. Its a fully assembled head from FRPP. The shop simply replaced the springs and slapped on a more aggressive cam.

I would have to check my receipts but i think it was around $700 when i had all that done at ATS.

Were you happy with ATS's work?

 

[lethe]

Were you happy with ATS's work?

So far yes. I think i have maybe 1k miles on my engine. I went through them bases on Bruces' recommendation and experience with them.

 

[AutoXRacer]

So, I may have found the source of my oil consumption issue!!!!!

First, let me specify that I do not have a PCV system. My valve covers are plumbed to two breather type catch cans. So I should not have any kind of oil coming into the intake system.

Also, looking at the spark plugs, they sure look a lot better than they did 5K miles ago; I currently have a little over 10K miles.

With that, lets start with Cylinder #5.

Here is the LH valve on Cylinder #5

RH Valve on Cylinder #5

What is that!!??? Looks like oil to me. No, I am pretty sure there should be no oil in there. Just to get any doubts out of the way, I did start the engine this morning, when it was cold from over night and let it run until the coolant temp reached 110 or so. Then I pulled the fuel pump fuse. But regardless, there shouldn't be oil in the valve ports right...?

Here is the spark plug, like I said they look a lot better than before. I am wondering if it has anything to do with the cylinder walls finally breaking in and seating the rings.

Piston #5

I did not take any pictures of Cylinder #6 and #7 valves as they were open and could not see any traces of oil. Piston #6 was also up, so not much to see.

But here is what the spark plug looks like at 10K miles:

Here is plug #6 at 4K miles

Piston #7

Spark Plug #7

Cylinder #8 valves

LH valve

RH valve

Piston #8

Spark Plug #8

So, not even sure its worth checking cylinders #1-4... Seems like a valve stem seals need to be R&Red.

Whats your take!!??

 

[BruceH]

It would be a good reason for cnc heads if you are looking for a reason, lol. Around $1650 or so from Tasca with all new components.

 

[AutoXRacer]

It would be a good reason for cnc heads if you are looking for a reason, lol. Around $1650 or so from Tasca with all new components.

Haha... So you think its the heads/valve stem seals?

How could valve stem seals go bad on brand new heads?

 

[AutoXRacer]

So I just got done with cylinders 1 thru 4... sigh

Spark plug #1

Spark plug #2

Spark plug #3

Spark plug #4

Spark plugs 1 thru 4

Cylinder #1 valves

Piston #1

Cylinder #2

Piston #2

Cylinder #3 - valves open

Piston #3

Cylinder #4 - valves open

Piston #4 - TDC

So obviously its the heads...question is, will a valve guide/seal do the trick or is there more to this than just the seals?

 

[JoshK]

Did they forget the valve stem seals, lol

 

[lethe]

Damn, no wonder you were losing so much oil.

 

[Back@itagain]

How could valve stem seals go bad on brand new heads?

Maybe because Livernois Motorsports assembled these heads for FRPP and they suck!

Glad you finally took a look at them.

 

[lito]

Sorry to see this but is what I expected, BTDT, seals did nothing in my case as it was a guide issue, yours being stock everything is a matter of checking. I would at least remove some and do some wiggle testing of the guide/steam clearance and inspect the seals, prepare your back for such endeavor.

 

[skwerl]

What's JDM's stand on this? I'm just guessing, but I'd assume they would most likely give you some song and dance about how it isn't their responsibility or it's been too long or some other reason why they won't help you with the repair costs. They were plenty happy to take your money though.

Your build is the primary reason why I'll never spend a dime with JDM ever.

 

[BruceH]

Maybe because Livernois Motorsports assembled these heads for FRPP and they suck!

Glad you finally took a look at them.

That's not how the op described it. He said he bought the new blank heads that are sold by frpp and had JDM assemble them. I still don't understand the FRPP stage 1 description, this is the only time I've ever heard it anyway.

This is what the op calls Stage 1:

Part Details

Hover over image to zoom
click to enlarge




4.6L/5.4L RH 3V CYLINDER HEAD
M-6049-N3V**
Suggested Retail Price
$949.00

Sold in Units of:
Each (1)


tech notes

• Production 3V cylinder head
• Finished machined casting with guides and seats installed.
• Ready for assembly.
• Use head changing kit M-6067-3V46.
• Direct replacement for 2008-2010 Mustangs with 12MM spark plugs
• Heads will fit early cars originally equipped with "High thread" design spark plugs. Requires spark plug and M-12039-3V ignition coil update

Note: Engines with late style 12MM spark plugs can be identified by coil engineering number 8L3E Engines with early style 16mm "High Thread" design spark plugs can be identified by coil engineering number 3L3E part number


specs



This is what most people refer to as stage 2. They are machined by Livernois.


Part Details

Hover over image to zoom
click to enlarge




4.6L/5.4L CNC PORTED 3V RH CYLINDER HEAD - ASSEMBLED
M-6049-N3VPA*
Suggested Retail Price
$998.95

Sold in Units of:
Each (1)


tech notes

• New production cylinder head casting
• No exchange required. Minimize your vehicle down time waiting for a shop to port your heads. Get a brand new head for a little more than the price of an exchange!

• CNC ported to increase flow and performance
• 53 cc combustion chamber (Stock head is 51 cc)
• Intake runner volume: 202cc (Stock 174cc)
• Exhaust runner volume: 73cc (Stock 62cc)
• Intake flow rate at .600 lift: 272 CFM
• Exhaust flow rate at .600 lift: 190 CFM
• Assembled with factory guides, production springs, valves, retainers, locks, and seals
• Does not include camshaft, followers, and hydraulic lash adjusters
• Use head changing kit M-6067-3V46.
• Requires 2008-2010 12 MM spark plugs
• Heads will fit early cars originally equipped with "High thread" design spark plugs. Spark plugs M-12405-3V12MM and ignition coils M-12029-3V recommended.

Note: Engines with late style 12MM spark plugs can be identified by coil engineering number 8L3E Engines with early style 16mm "High Thread" design spark plugs can be identified by coil engineering number 3L3E part number.

This is what most call stage 3:

Part Details

Hover over image to zoom
click to enlarge




4.6L/5.4L RH HIGH-FLOW CNC CYLINDER HEAD
M-6049-463VP3*
Suggested Retail Price
$1,849.95

Sold in Units of:
Each (1)


tech notes

• New OEM production cylinder head casting
• 5 axis CNC ported to increase flow and performance
• 48 cc combustion chamber (Stock head is 51 cc)
• Increased size 35.0 mm intake valves (Stock intake valve is 34 mm)
• Increased size inconel 38.5 mm exhaust valves (Stock exhaust valve is 37.5 mm)
• Intake runner volume: 214cc (Stock 174cc)
• Exhaust runner volume: 73cc (Stock 62cc)
• Intake flow rate at .600 lift: 291 CFM
• Exhaust flow rate at .600 lift: 191 CFM (no pipe)
• Fully assembled with bronze guides, light-weight steel retainers,upgraded valve springs
• Includes Ford 4.6L 3-Valve Cam Phaser Limiter Kit
• Does not include camshaft, followers and hydraulic lash adjusters
• Use head changing kit M-6067-3V46
• Requires 2008-2010 12mm spark plugs
• Heads will fit early cars originally equipped with "High Thread" design spark plugs. Requires spark plug and M-12039-3V ignition coil update.
• NOTE: Engines with late style 12mm spark plugs can be identified by coil engineering number 8L3E. Engines with early style 16mm "High Thread" design spark plugs can be identified by coil engineering 3L3E part number.

The cnc heads are the same as Livernois stage 2 but without the high lift springs. The frpp version is made with brand new heads.

The high flow heads are the same as Livernois stage 3.


​

 

[Back@itagain]

That's not how the op described it. He said he bought the new blank heads that are sold by frpp and had JDM assemble them. I still don't understand the FRPP stage 1 description, this is the only time I've ever heard it anyway.

I must have missed...or forgotten the part about JDM doing assembly since this issue has dragged on for so long. But the info you have listed should narrow it down. Who installed the guides?

I do know Livernois was receiving brand new cores since I saw pallets of them in their shop. Its now common knowledge that they are doing the work for FRPP. Did they also install the guides and seats on these Stage 1's? The OPs problems are consistent with problems others have experienced coming from Livernois' shop so I'm gonna step out on a limb....I'd feel pretty confident saying Livernois did the install and probably did not install the guides properly.

This is some of what I used as references for the Stage 1 information (just to further add to any confusion):

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.c...d_racing_three_valve_intake_manifold_testing/

I did note the part number was the same as the FRPP Stage 2. Not sure if the product line changed at some point in time or not.

http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.co...0_Mustang_GT_Top_End_Package_p/m-fr4-s197.htm

This add claims the FRPP Stage 1 have also been CNC'd.

 

[BruceH]

I must have missed...or forgotten the part about JDM doing assembly since this issue has dragged on for so long. But the info you have listed should narrow it down. Who installed the guides?

I do know Livernois was receiving brand new cores since I saw pallets of them in their shop. Its now common knowledge that they are doing the work for FRPP. Did they also install the guides and seats on these Stage 1's? The OPs problems are consistent with problems others have experienced coming from Livernois' shop so I'm gonna step out on a limb....I'd feel pretty confident saying Livernois did the install and probably did not install the guides properly.

This is some of what I used as references for the Stage 1 information (just to further add to any confusion):

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.c...d_racing_three_valve_intake_manifold_testing/

I did note the part number was the same as the FRPP Stage 2. Not sure if the product line changed at some point in time or not.

http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.co...0_Mustang_GT_Top_End_Package_p/m-fr4-s197.htm

This add claims the FRPP Stage 1 have also been CNC'd.

A few people on this forum have been bitten by Livernois heads. It was one reason I stuck with FRPP even though the machining is done by L. FRPP has an excellent reputation for taking care of problems. They have always helped me when I needed it and all it took was a phone call or email.

IIRC they sent lito a bad set twice! And he had to pay shipping and import duties, twice! In the end he rebuilt them himself to get the oil problem fixed. It had something to do with the bronze guides being undersized.

So some vendors and magazines are calling them stage 1? I don't know why but whatever. Gerald bought new casting blanks. I'd think they came right off the assembly line without going to Livernois but stranger things have happened, lol.

 

[BadPiggy]

Did they forget the valve stem seals, lol

My first thoughts, too! LOL

What's JDM's stand on this? I'm just guessing, but I'd assume they would most likely give you some song and dance about how it isn't their responsibility or it's been too long or some other reason why they won't help you with the repair costs. They were plenty happy to take your money though.

Your build is the primary reason why I'll never spend a dime with JDM ever.

Nor will I!

And I'll tell you what pisses me off about them...they come on here and make BS threads about being the fastest supercharged 3V, shit like that. Then they go and fuck Gerald up one leg and down the other. Just total BS the way Gerald has been done.

 

[TheKurgan]

Now now, let's see what the problem is before we go bashing. Victim mentality runs wild these days.

 

[jcw427]

I'm think full dissassembly is in order..........

 

[AutoXRacer]

I'm think full dissassembly is in order..........

Sigh, my worst nightmare.

Anyway, here is my plan. I am getting the new ID 1000 injectors Friday.
These injectors with a revised tune will eliminate my rich condition.

I want the car tuned before I pull the motor, so that when the motor is refreshed and re-installed, I can just haul it to the dyno and break it in like it should have been done a year ago. Strap that bitch down and stomp the throttle.

I don't want to repeat last years scenario where I did not have a drive-able tune. It took months to get a working tune.

I'll be pulling the motor, getting the short block rehoned with new rings (not sure I need new rings according to Total Seal).
Order a set of the FRPP CNC and Ported heads (non-high flow due to the bronze guides).
Swap my valve springs and cam into the new heads.
Polish the ROUSH intake manifold runners and plenum.
Reassemble the motor and take two... sigh

Would it be worth-while to get one of those steel backing plates for my high flow GT500 oil pump; I already have billet gears?

 

[dysan]

I thought I had read that you don't want gapless rings in a mod motor and I dug up an old thread with that. Especially one that is boosted.

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=514476&highlight="gapless+rings"#post514476