Oil Pressure Loss in Braking

[Mike Rousch]

UPDATE: I coughed up the money and installed a Mishimoto oil cooler.

I just ran an event at Autobahn, but unfortunately, it didn't go so well. After a couple laps in the warm-up session, 3rd gear broke. All of the other gears seem fine, but with very little warning, I converted my 6-speed MT82 into a 5-speed MT82. I still ran a few laps each day because I need the points for the regional championship, but I had to be in 4th and 5th gear the whole time.

Since I was already handicapped from the broken transmission, I didn't feel like pushing the car and breaking other things too. I just ran a few "participation laps". Given that limitation, I'm ambivalent about the oil cooler's performance. The oil temperature stabilized at ~260 degF, and I was really hoping for more than a 20-30 degF drop over the Boss 302 cooler. I'm pretty sure that if I pushed the car harder on a hotter day, I would have easily raised the oil temperature by 10+ degF. I'll probably contact Mishimoto and see what their expectations are for this application.

Once the oil temperature was stabilized, there was still some oil pressure loss under braking, but it wasn't that concerning. The lowest it got was 51 psi, and that should be sufficient for the engine (in small doses).

Here is a graph of my fastest lap (in which the engine would be working hardest). Speed is in black, oil pressure is in red, oil temperature is in pink, and longitudinal acceleration is in blue:

I'll be limping the car through the final event of the year, and hopefully I get a new transmission for the spring. It's possible that I have the oil pressure under now, but I won't know for sure until I can push the car as hard again.

You probably broke the plastic piece on the shift stop. If you stick with the MT82 do the bronze pads and the solid stop and you wont have anymore problems out of it.

Adding multiple quarts of extra oil to the sump is questionable (My opinion). The easiest Band-Aid is an Accusump. I have used several and they work to keep steady oil pressure. Pre-start engine lubrication is a great added bonus.

Boss 302 Radiator is a joke - The only advantage is pre-oil heating for street cars on first start up in cooler weather. My opinion also.
A properly ducted oil cooler and slow opening remote mounted thermostat located away from exhaust heat is your best solution to controlling oil temps and street driving.
Please - Don't mount the oil cooler so it is on top of the radiator unless your radiator is massive - separate ducted cold air source is optimal so maximum radiator air exposure is possible.
Properly duct the radiator for best results. The stock configuration is not efficient
Fee advise is worth what you pay for it.

I will disagree on the accusump, These motors do not need them. I agree with Terry that the coyote has no issues at all with oil starvation. I have not seen or heard of one single oiling issue with the exception of the oil pump gears coming apart.

 

[2008 V6]

I will disagree on the accusump, These motors do not need them. I agree with Terry that the coyote has no issues at all with oil starvation. I have not seen or heard of one single oiling issue with the exception of the oil pump gears coming apart.

I concur – The OP has quite a bit of time data logging and analyzing oil pressure. The accusump would stabilize the pressure and let him move on / not lose sleep. I didn’t say it was necessary only that it would stabilize the pressure. Adding multiple quarts to the oil pan is not a good idea in my opinion but Pre-lubing before startup is - With a stock motor – under warrantee – not necessary.
Just drive it & beat it. You will thank yourself and sleep better.

 

[SlowJim]

I think he is a powertrain engineer so don't blame him for over-thinking this

 

[ddd4114]

Adding multiple quarts of extra oil to the sump is questionable (My opinion). The easiest Band-Aid is an Accusump. I have used several and they work to keep steady oil pressure. Pre-start engine lubrication is a great added bonus.

Boss 302 Radiator is a joke - The only advantage is pre-oil heating for street cars on first start up in cooler weather. My opinion also.
A properly ducted oil cooler and slow opening remote mounted thermostat located away from exhaust heat is your best solution to controlling oil temps and street driving.
Please - Don't mount the oil cooler so it is on top of the radiator unless your radiator is massive - separate ducted cold air source is optimal so maximum radiator air exposure is possible.
Properly duct the radiator for best results. The stock configuration is not efficient
Fee advise is worth what you pay for it.

Yeah, I've considered an Accusump. It's an effective band-aid fix, but at the bottom of the priority list for me because it's also a heavy, bulky band-aid fix that adds additional complexity to the system. However, I will most certainly consider an Accusump before a dry sump system. I will also consider a different car before a dry sump system.

I'm also strongly considering modified ducting for next year. I'd like to do a little more research before jumping into guess-and-check, but I'm hoping that a simple fix like the Tiger Racing hood is all that's needed.

You probably broke the plastic piece on the shift stop. If you stick with the MT82 do the bronze pads and the solid stop and you wont have anymore problems out of it.

Interesting. I might contact you if I decide to rebuild mine in a few weeks to get more details. Thanks for the advice.

These motors do not need them. I agree with Terry that the coyote has no issues at all with oil starvation. I have not seen or heard of one single oiling issue with the exception of the oil pump gears coming apart.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but for obvious reasons I'm a bit skeptical. Before looking into this myself, I hadn't heard of any issues either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I haven't found any other threads about people posting oil analysis results or oil pressure/temperature data for cars that are pushed hard on road courses. It's definitely possible that I have a worn engine that's prone to pressure loss, but it's pretty hard to deny the data.

I think he is a powertrain engineer so don't blame him for over-thinking this

Guilty as charged. I have a very good idea of what eventually happens when engines repeatedly get this low on oil pressure. It might take a while, but eventually....

I really appreciate the feedback. I wanted to make this thread to pick everybody's brains about this issue, but I also wanted to alert others about it. Since the oil pressure doesn't drop low enough to trigger the dummy light, other people might not even realize it's happening.

 

[Mike Rousch]

Interesting. I might contact you if I decide to rebuild mine in a few weeks to get more details. Thanks for the advice.

No problem, I can get it fixed if you need help with it!

I'm not saying you're wrong, but for obvious reasons I'm a bit skeptical. Before looking into this myself, I hadn't heard of any issues either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I haven't found any other threads about people posting oil analysis results or oil pressure/temperature data for cars that are pushed hard on road courses. It's definitely possible that I have a worn engine that's prone to pressure loss, but it's pretty hard to deny the data.

I know its hard to ignore data, but sometimes its better to look at the hardware when it comes apart. For example we just took a coyote out of a local race car, This car started HPDE mid 2011 with around 20k on the clock, was in group 3/4 nasa by mid 2012, changed hands locally a few times, converted to a race car in early 2013 and has been to every race and several HPDE's up until a few months ago when it was crashed. It had 55k on the clock and i can honestly say 90% of that was spent on track.

The bearings from this motor still look new, not one sign of pressure loss (i can send them to you to look at if you like) This was a stock oil pan car and never had a oil cooler either. I know this is just one example but its still something to look at.

 

[ArizonaGT]

I'm also strongly considering modified ducting for next year. I'd like to do a little more research before jumping into guess-and-check, but I'm hoping that a simple fix like the Tiger Racing hood is all that's needed.

The TR hood will extract some heat but it is more for front end lift reduction as opposed to cooling improvement--so that might not solve your issue.

If you box in your radiator and get a large oil cooler it will help quite a bit.

Do you still have an AC condenser mounted in front of the radiator? If you can ditch that it will help.

 

[Department Of Boost]

The TR hood will extract some heat but it is more for front end lift reduction as opposed to cooling improvement--

IDK if I completely agree with that. When I went with the TR hod I saw underhood temps go from 170-180deg to just above ambient (unless idling/sitting still). That's a huge improvement. And the hood I took off already had small vents.

I swear the water temps came down a touch too. Probably due to the fact that there was more air moving through the cores due to opening up the "exhaust".

So I think they are worth it as an anti-lift device as well as improving cooling.

 

[ArizonaGT]

I'm not saying that it won't help, but I don't think it will be the "silver bullet" he's looking for in this case. Expectations Management

 

[Department Of Boost]

I'm not saying that it won't help, but I don't think it will be the "silver bullet" he's looking for in this case. Expectations Management

Oh yeah, I agree 100% with that. It's no silver bullet.

 

[ddd4114]

Do you still have an AC condenser mounted in front of the radiator? If you can ditch that it will help.

I do, and I'm sure that's not helping at all. However, since I still drive my car to and from the track, I do not want to ditch the A/C.

 

[Pentalab]

What upper grille do you have on your 2011 ? The oem one is beyond useless.
7 bar Roush upper grille + TR hood + Mishimoto oil cooler / other brand of oil cooler, is as good as it gets. Do you have the Mishimoto oil cooler + Boss 302 oil cooler operating at the same time ?
The Boss cooler also requires the Boss eng rad....which is aprx 1.75" thick, vs the 1" thick rad on the GT. Or an aftermarket eng rad in the 1.75" - 2.00" thick range. Eng fan should be on high speed.

You don't have a blower on the car, so it's not like you have a huge HE sitting in front of the oem AC rad. You have a manual tranny, so you don't have an auto tranny cooler sandwiched between eng rad and AC rad.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

What upper grille do you have on your 2011 ? The oem one is beyond useless.
7 bar Roush upper grille + TR hood + Mishimoto oil cooler / other brand of oil cooler, is as good as it gets..

Be wary of making definitive statements, such as "____ is as good as it gets" That's possibly what you've seen on your car, but there are a lot of variables on the parts listed just in your sentence there, and there ARE bigger and better options out there for cooling. But we all know that Pentalab only knows what he has done to his car. That's fine, and I'm not saying his input isn't valid, but he tends to make these "sweeping statements of fact", often with very limited experience.

This Setrab oil cooler (at top) is massive, and dwarfs the Mishimoto oil cooler. We just put a Mishimoto oil cooler kit onto a Mustang yesterday - its decent for the money - but there are bigger/better options.

Same goes for the Tiger Racing hood. Its pretty good for a simple, bolt-on composite hood (well... it bolts-on after hours of bodywork, of course) and does "some venting" of underhood heat. There is little to no weight savings over the factory aluminum hood, and the fit-and-finish is pretty poor (this from two paint and body guys who have installed several of these each), but "it looks kinda neat" and has some big holes in it. And it is easier than making a true ducted hood, that's for sure.

Of course a sealed grill opening pushing air through the heat exchangers and out via a ducted hood can evacuate and move more air than a hood with some holes in it. A ducted hood directs air from right behind the radiator to the hood opening in a low pressure area.

And arguing "upper grills" ... other than the silly Boss unit that has the fake foglight holes blocked off, these arguments are mostly about style. We ran with the upper grill completely blocked off and had no cooling issues.. of course this was on a car with the lower grill opening sealed to the heat exchangers, a waterfall deflector pushing air up to a deeply ducted hood...

This is more extreme than most folks are willing to go, so yes... for an easy "bolt-on" cooling solution: a good aftermarket (not-the-boss) air-to-liquid heat exchanger oil cooler, bigger 1-piece aluminum radiator, a free-flowing grill, and a hood with some openings to help vent heat out is generally a pretty good solution. Its not the only solution or even the best solution, but it is a good solution.

Carry on...

 

[Department Of Boost]

Be wary of making definitive statements, such as "____ is as good as it gets"

TRUTH!

 

[Wes06]

Unless your talking about DOB R spec
Lol

 

[ddd4114]

UPDATE: I just received my oil analysis report from Road America (post #31), and there was a negligible amount of wear metals found in the sample. This is the first time that I haven't had elevated lead in over 3 years of track abuse. Also, this sample was taken after maintaining 290 degF oil temperatures, getting the pressure down to 25 psi under braking, and accidentally over-revving the engine to 8000 rpm. Could it just have been a lucky sample? Maybe. I'm not getting my hopes up until it's a consistent trend.

I looked through my records, and since the previous time I sent a sample for analysis, the only relevant change I've made to the car is moving from Mobil 1 0w40 oil to 15w50 oil. Considering that Ford suggests 5w50 for their performance Mustangs... maybe I should have done this a long time ago. 0w40 seems like a large increase in viscosity compared to the OEM 5w20 recommendation, but maybe it's still a little too thin for track use.

I also checked my records to see what I changed before the first time I started seeing elevated lead in my oil (over 3 years ago). Ironically, the only relevant change I found was installing the Boss 302 oil cooler. It's possible that the elevated lead I've been finding in my oil is not due to bearing contact when pressure drops. Maybe there was loose material in the Boss cooler before I installed it, and the contamination scraped the bearings when I started beating on the car. Maybe after ~20k miles, the bearing damage has "stabilized", and lead is no longer being transferred to the oil. The filter should have caught any foreign material in the cooler, but who knows.

Due to my recent transmission woes, I won't be able to abuse my car as much as normal until next spring. Therefore, I won't have a new oil sample until May or June. We'll see what happens then. Maybe 2008 V6 has a point about his "ignorance is bliss" remark.

EDIT: I forgot to answer Pentalab's question. No, I am not still using the Boss cooler with the Mishimoto cooler. Putting aftermarket heat exchangers in series is generally a bad idea.

 

[Pentalab]

ArizonaGT[/B]
The TR hood will extract SOME heat but it is more for front end lift reduction as opposed to cooling improvement--



Department Of Boost;2264688]IDK if I completely agree with that. When I went with the TR hod I saw underhood temps go from 170-180deg to just above ambient (unless idling/sitting still). That's a huge improvement. And the hood I took off already had small vents.

I swear the water temps came down a touch too. Probably due to the fact that there was more air moving through the cores due to opening up the "exhaust".

So I think they are worth it as an anti-lift device as well as improving cooling.

Are we talking about underhood temps, or oil temps, water temps, or a combo of all 3 ? Reducing underhood temps from 170-180...down to just above ambient is a massive redux. If the oil cooler /AC rad /eng rad were ducted /shrouded / sealed..... the airflow through those 3 rads would increase by a substantial amount. Front end lift redux is a bonus. Rads stacked in front of each other is bad enough, impeding airflow. But this should be obvious.

Ceramic LT's and either no cats or hi-flow cats reduced my underhood temps by 41 F.

 

[Pentalab]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentalab
What upper grille do you have on your 2011 ? The oem one is beyond useless.
7 bar Roush upper grille + TR hood + Mishimoto oil cooler / other brand of oil cooler, is as good as it gets..





Be wary of making definitive statements, such as "____ is as good as it gets" That's possibly what you've seen on your car, but there are a lot of variables on the parts listed just in your sentence there, and there ARE bigger and better options out there for cooling. But we all know that Pentalab only knows what he has done to his car. That's fine, and I'm not saying his input isn't valid, but he tends to make these "sweeping statements of fact", often with very limited experience.

This Setrab oil cooler (at top) is massive, and dwarfs the Mishimoto oil cooler. We just put a Mishimoto oil cooler kit onto a Mustang yesterday - its decent for the money - but there are bigger/better options.

Same goes for the Tiger Racing hood. Its pretty good for a simple, bolt-on composite hood (well... it bolts-on after hours of bodywork, of course) and does "some venting" of underhood heat. There is little to no weight savings over the factory aluminum hood, and the fit-and-finish is pretty poor (this from two paint and body guys who have installed several of these each), but "it looks kinda neat" and has some big holes in it. And it is easier than making a true ducted hood, that's for sure.

Of course a sealed grill opening pushing air through the heat exchangers and out via a ducted hood can evacuate and move more air than a hood with some holes in it. A ducted hood directs air from right behind the radiator to the hood opening in a low pressure area.

And arguing "upper grills" ... other than the silly Boss unit that has the fake foglight holes blocked off, these arguments are mostly about style. We ran with the upper grill completely blocked off and had no cooling issues.. of course this was on a car with the lower grill opening sealed to the heat exchangers, a waterfall deflector pushing air up to a deeply ducted hood...

This is more extreme than most folks are willing to go, so yes... for an easy "bolt-on" cooling solution: a good aftermarket (not-the-boss) air-to-liquid heat exchanger oil cooler, bigger 1-piece aluminum radiator, a free-flowing grill, and a hood with some openings to help vent heat out is generally a pretty good solution. Its not the only solution or even the best solution, but it is a good solution.

Carry on...

Points well taken. Let me re-phrase that. The Mishimoto is only 11.25" x 5.5" tall x 2" thick. The Setrab is a lot wider. I wasn't trying to be definitive. More in reference to what some / most folks could do with simple bolt on parts...that are readily available, and within their budget. You have the distinct advantage of a full race facility behind you, complete with metal fabrication, lifts, plenty of tools, trained personnel etc. Your waterfall deflector pushing air up to a deeply ducted hood is superb, but well beyond my limited fabrication skillset.


"This is more extreme than most folks are willing to go, so yes... for an easy "bolt-on" cooling solution: a good aftermarket (not-the-boss) air-to-liquid heat exchanger oil cooler, bigger 1-piece aluminum radiator, a free-flowing grill, and a hood with some openings to help vent heat out is generally a pretty good solution. Its not the only solution or even the best solution, but it is a good solution."

For the 'bolt on' cooling solution, you only have so many options to pick from. 3-4 oil coolers, a few vented hoods, adding vents to oem hoods, a few larger eng rads, 4 replacement upper grille assy's, etc. The little guy can only do so much...without resorting to a metal fabrication nightmare or other solution.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Unless your talking about DOB R spec
Lol

Well, yeah. It's pretty close to as good as it gets.

UPDATE: I just received my oil analysis report from Road America (post #31), and there was a negligible amount of wear metals found in the sample. This is the first time that I haven't had elevated lead in over 3 years of track abuse. Also, this sample was taken after maintaining 290 degF oil temperatures, getting the pressure down to 25 psi under braking, and accidentally over-revving the engine to 8000 rpm. Could it just have been a lucky sample? Maybe. I'm not getting my hopes up until it's a consistent trend.

I looked through my records, and since the previous time I sent a sample for analysis, the only relevant change I've made to the car is moving from Mobil 1 0w40 oil to 15w50 oil. Considering that Ford suggests 5w50 for their performance Mustangs... maybe I should have done this a long time ago. 0w40 seems like a large increase in viscosity compared to the OEM 5w20 recommendation, but maybe it's still a little too thin for track use.

I also checked my records to see what I changed before the first time I started seeing elevated lead in my oil (over 3 years ago). Ironically, the only relevant change I found was installing the Boss 302 oil cooler. It's possible that the elevated lead I've been finding in my oil is not due to bearing contact when pressure drops. Maybe there was loose material in the Boss cooler before I installed it, and the contamination scraped the bearings when I started beating on the car. Maybe after ~20k miles, the bearing damage has "stabilized", and lead is no longer being transferred to the oil. The filter should have caught any foreign material in the cooler, but who knows.

Due to my recent transmission woes, I won't be able to abuse my car as much as normal until next spring. Therefore, I won't have a new oil sample until May or June. We'll see what happens then. Maybe 2008 V6 has a point about his "ignorance is bliss" remark.

EDIT: I forgot to answer Pentalab's question. No, I am not still using the Boss cooler with the Mishimoto cooler. Putting aftermarket heat exchangers in series is generally a bad idea.

Hey ddd4114, can you summarize what you have done from start to finish and the improvements those changes made? A quick bullet point list or something? I'm having a hard time nailing it down by going through the thread.

Thanks

 

[ddd4114]

Hey ddd4114, can you summarize what you have done from start to finish and the improvements those changes made? A quick bullet point list or something? I'm having a hard time nailing it down by going through the thread.

Thanks

Yeah, this thread has become much longer than I originally thought. I'll try to summarize it later.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Yeah, this thread has become much longer than I originally thought. I'll try to summarize it later.

Thanks, that would be great. I'm in the middle of two builds right now that may benefit from your findings. And they are both still flexible enough to make planning changes.