Opinions on this suspension setup ?

[TurboX]

Hi Folks, Ive been gathering info on this board for several months now and would like to get opinions and suggestions on ideas for a suspension setup Ive chosen.

The car is a 2010 Mustang GT that will be driven on the street(Not a DD) road coursed couple times a year and drag raced 5-10 times a year. Handling is number 1 priority and Im open to all suggestions but keep in mind I want to be able to dragrace. Im not saying I want to be cutting 1.5 60ft times but I dont want a suspension that will break because its not designed to dragrace. Here is what Im thinking:


2010 BMR Kmember with adjustable A-Arms. Are the adjustable A Arms worth the extra coin ? BMR also makes a Kmember that will lower the engine 1/2" opinions on that over stock engine height ?

H&R Coil Over Kit(Shocks,Struts and springs) Prob lower 3/4" Front 1 " rear

Maximium Motorsports Caster/Camber plates

Fay2 Watts link


In case it makes a difference I am also going to be running a Turbo and plan to be making around 500hp at the wheels, I know Im adding alot of weight to the nose but please take than into consideration when making suggestions.

Thanks

 

[Kaldar142]

I would get the non adjustable a-arms, really no need for them IMO.

I have not heard much or have any experience with the H&R coilover kit, but if you're going to spend the money i would get something GOOD or just stay springs/shocks.

Ground control coilovers are nice, thats what I have and there is another member on here (DusterRT) that runs them aswell. Both satisified.

With that being said, if i were to do it all over again i would just get some KW3s.

The fays2 watts link is a nice piece, i use that aswell and love it. although that is the only watts link i have any experience with, i would buy it again.

None of those suspension mods will really hurt your drag racing capability but the only way to get maximum traction would be to use a really sticky tire since alot of the weight transfer characteristics of the stock springs will be nearly gone with a stiffer setup.

 

[Sam Strano]

Hi Folks, Ive been gathering info on this board for several months now and would like to get opinions and suggestions on ideas for a suspension setup Ive chosen.

The car is a 2010 Mustang GT that will be driven on the street(Not a DD) road coursed couple times a year and drag raced 5-10 times a year. Handling is number 1 priority and Im open to all suggestions but keep in mind I want to be able to dragrace. Im not saying I want to be cutting 1.5 60ft times but I dont want a suspension that will break because its not designed to dragrace. Here is what Im thinking:


2010 BMR Kmember with adjustable A-Arms. Are the adjustable A Arms worth the extra coin ? BMR also makes a Kmember that will lower the engine 1/2" opinions on that over stock engine height ?

H&R Coil Over Kit(Shocks,Struts and springs) Prob lower 3/4" Front 1 " rear

Maximium Motorsports Caster/Camber plates

Fay2 Watts link


In case it makes a difference I am also going to be running a Turbo and plan to be making around 500hp at the wheels, I know Im adding alot of weight to the nose but please take than into consideration when making suggestions.

Thanks

H&R coil-overs offer no adjustability in damping which I think is a tuning mistake. I agree that if coilovers are something you are after you look at KW Variant 3's, KW ClubSports for the more serious folks (more aggressive valving), running Koni Sport with a Ground Control conversion, a Steeda Coilover kit with D-specs, or even Eibach coil-overs (not shown on my site, but I have those too) but only the adjustable damper types. Now Eibach dampers aren't my favorites but at least they are adjustable....

As for the weight. I would strongly suggest you take a really hard look at those K's... they are only about light, not about strong. I would avoid them like the plague. Saving weight is great when you don't shoot yourself in the foot in the process. Not only is the K subject to the torque of the engine, but the lateral load from cornering. You will have more weight, more power, and want to turn some corners, all of which will make life harder on a K-member and you are looking at a much more flimsy part.

Of the two, I *think* the a-arms might be ok.... but I'm not sure there because they don't really turn corners down there.... And frankly that's one those places any chance of weakness is not good. And my guess is the 11 pounds if over both arms, not just one. Is that worth it? Does it come close to offsetting the weight of the turbo setup?

Want to save some weight? I'd much sooner recommend this to save some weight: http://stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=729&CategoryID=80&ModelID=5 You can still run a swaybar (which you'll want), save some weight too.

MM camber plates are super nice, that's a good choice.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I'm really liking my suspension setup and can't wait to push it more this season on the road courses - great for daily driving too!

• Vogtland 1.2" Sport Springs
• Hotchkis front and rear sport sway bars with adjustable end links
• Koni Yellow Sport Adjustable front and rear shocks/struts
• CHE A-arm brace
• Steeda X5 Ball Joint and Bumpsteer Kit (car is lowered 1.5")
• BMR Lower Control Arms (LCA) with poly bushings
• Steeda Adjustable Upper Control Arm (UCA) with HD mount
• Fays2 F2S Watts Link
• Maximum Motorsports Caster/Camber Plates

 

[Cookiemonster]

Im looking for some more info on the KWv3s and the clubsports. What exactly is the difference and what are the spring rates for both application?

 

[TurboX]

Thanks for the responses and I was actually expecting to hear what was said about the Kmember. I didnt see MM making one so I kinda figured that nothing better or as strong as stock was available. The KW really was outta the budget but now since I just saved a grand on the Kmember setup, I might be able to squeeze it in. I had actually been planning a radiator support but forgot to list it. Sam do you have any experience with the UPR or is the UPR a ripoff of the Steeda ?

 

[Sam Strano]

Im looking for some more info on the KWv3s and the clubsports. What exactly is the difference and what are the spring rates for both application?

Fronts are 400 on the V3's, rears are listed as "progressive". Clubsports I don't honestly know the spring rates of, but the rears are linear, and come with camber plates.

However, there is a new option on the block. AST's. I got my set (but have to run stock springs on them). But a set of 4100 singles with inverted and aluminum rear shocks and coil-over/weight jacker hardware and springs list @ $2549 which is inline with KW Clubsports. But AST's in my experience work better on any sort of rough stuff... And the feel is awesome. Hell, the engineering is self evident just turning the adjusts. Like little gun-bolt slides. Very positive. And the fact the guy who owns AST has some, um... successes to stand on his own doesn't hurt.

Haven't had time to get them on my website yet, but they will be in the next few days for those of you who want to see them.

 

[Sam Strano]

Thanks for the responses and I was actually expecting to hear what was said about the Kmember. I didnt see MM making one so I kinda figured that nothing better or as strong as stock was available. The KW really was outta the budget but now since I just saved a grand on the Kmember setup, I might be able to squeeze it in. I had actually been planning a radiator support but forgot to list it. Sam do you have any experience with the UPR or is the UPR a ripoff of the Steeda ?

I don't. UPR looks to me to be the Wal-mart of Mustang parts (well, there are a few), and their parts are kind of generic versions of other things. I know they have Eibach make their springs, and I'm not a fan of Eibach's Eibach springs. I've heard they "come out with new parts" not long after others have, and that look suspiciously alike. Others do that too, it's part of business. But there are time and development costs involved in making new parts that those who "borrow" don't have to account for. What's more is since they don't tend to care enough to design something on their own, they tend to not care as much as the design or quality.

Would that part fail? Probably not, but I also don't think it'd truly be as nice or even fit maybe as well as a Steeda part.

I make my own parts too, when I'm not satisfied with the available stuff. That's the only time I do it, and when I do, I want to make something I think is truly better. Hence the reasons you see my bars being not like any other set of bars for this car. I balanced the sizing I felt best, with adjustment, and hollow tubing to save weight. Nobody else has that combo, and if they did, I would have been happy to just use theirs. But I wanted what I wanted and felt strongly enough about it to put time, money and effort into building it. I'm not getting rich doing it. I maybe could sell my bars for $499/set and tell everyone they are soooo special because I'm me. But it isn't about that, it's about a great part that works and gives tuning options, for a fair price.

That's how I do things.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Sam: Quick "techie" question for you... KW Clubsport vs. AST: any preference and reasoning behind that preference? Also do you have shaft diameter data on them? Do either or both use an external or a piggyback reservoir? NASA runs a points break for those specific points:

Non-oem with external reservoir: +10
Non-oem with piggyback (external, no hose) OR shaft diameter of 40mm or greater: +7
All non-oem others (or modded/re-valved): +3

I'd like to stick with the +3 dampers if at all possible, but still want killer dampers. I've been looking at the G-C setup, but IIRC, the Koni's aren't inverted, so...

[/hijack]

 

[Cookiemonster]

[Hijack] approved

more info on the AST's please

 

[Sam Strano]

I'll try and get some of the pics up today on my website.

The AST's can be had in single, double, or even triple adjustable. I chose to use 4100 the singles. The rears are inverted, the fronts are not (but could be which would actually be 4200's). They do not have huge shafts, in fact they are the same size as Koni Sports. They are mono-tubes. They are digressive valved. They (AST) are becoming more and more popular with autocrossers, and winning. I have not had a set myself.... Nationals is on a surface that has some undulating sections that would cause a good .3 g variation as I crossed them so if I could get something that rode that stuff better (not that the Koni's sucked, by far the best off the shelf solution) it'd help.

Mono-tubes have a bigger piston which is more sensitive to the small movements and the shock reacts just a bit faster. These will never replace Koni Sports as super street shocks...not are they intended to.

Anyway, I digress. The setup I have would be a +3 shock in SoundGuyDave's scenario with NASA points.

I've already gotten two order in just based on my running them (which is flattering). I have driven AST's on other cars and been suitably impressed--or would not have done this. My best comparison between KW is on a number of Subaru's. The composure of the AST in comparison is just amazing. KW's can be a bit harsh, and kind of use what I think is a little bit of an odd damping curve. From what I saw/felt, the AST's worked like Ohlins do on Subaru's--and that is saying something.

I've done a few sets of AST's for BMW customers who also love them, so I thought it was time to try for myself since of any car, a solid axle one that is heavy would benefit the most. And those who stand still are the first to get passed. Even on an F-stock category car, I'm always looking around for improvements.

 

[Thinkkker]

AST fall very close to some Penske, Moton, and other high end shocks as far as quality of ride and the adjustability.

I doubled the spring rates on my car *when we first installed the AST suspension, as measured on a spring rate tester* and the car rode better than with the Tokico and stock spring setup. The car would turn in harder and was more stable.

The adjustability is astounding, do a run, come in change it one click and go out. You can very much feel a difference. Once you get it in the right spot, then you can fine tune it with air pressures. Coming from "low end" shocks on stock setups this was an amazing change.

Another great thing, as I have found, if you get a single adjustable, it can be upgraded to a double or triple at a later date. I have a double adjustable in the front, but the rear is single. I have found that to tune better I need to swap the rear to a double. So that is something that is planned this year.

Unlike Sam, I cannot comment on the KW.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Okay, it looks like we have a contender here!

Sam and Thinkk: have either or both of you run them in an open-track format? For that kind of coin, I just want to make sure that I'm not getting an autocross-specific piece... I don't autocross, so I don't know how they would translate, but I know that tire and brake packages are completely different. I don't think that dampers would be in the same category, but you never know... This will be the FOURTH time I'm putting struts on my car, and I'd like it to be the last...

 

[Cookiemonster]

Iv been in a S2k with the KWv3s and I can attest to the "firmness" they have.

 

[Thinkkker]

I instruct with TWS Motorsports Club, so yes. My car is oversprung for that, but I have done it. I still have stock brakes on the car with HP+ pads. The suspension is the big change on my car. I have never gone to set the car up for that exclusively since I have another car to prep for open track.

Saying all that, the car is easily tunable out there. I have redone the shock/strut settings to tune out the small amount of turn in understeer.

From my dealings with shocks/struts, the AST are a coil-over front so you can set your own rates. If you start to get to the end of adjustability on there and max out the damping you can get them rebuilt for not a lot. So if you have it maxed out, just get it redone. The biggest issue with this is that its a week or two without your shocks. If you only have the Mustang then you can run into problems easily.

I wouldnt think twice about the AST for Open track. I plan to get them on the "track" car once I get to that point with it. I still need to do general matenance before I look at that.

 

[Sam Strano]

Okay, it looks like we have a contender here!

Sam and Thinkk: have either or both of you run them in an open-track format? For that kind of coin, I just want to make sure that I'm not getting an autocross-specific piece... I don't autocross, so I don't know how they would translate, but I know that tire and brake packages are completely different. I don't think that dampers would be in the same category, but you never know... This will be the FOURTH time I'm putting struts on my car, and I'd like it to be the last...

Not to be to blunt about this, but.... The car has no idea where it is. Dampers have a job to do, which is damp sprung and unsprung mass. Is that any different on a track car than an autox car?

Some folks prefer different types of spring rates and damping curves, but that's not specific to autox vs. track. In fact Thinkkker runs way stiffer springs than I personally would or do, but we both autox, and we both I'm sure go to track days (I know I do).

Bottom line is balance is balance, response is response. What you are getting at is paramount to saying that a hot autox tire like a Hoosier A6 won't work on a track. We know it does and in fact most run that tire over the last few years over the R6.

I know that sometimes autoxers and track guys smash heads, but setting aside any personal animosity chassis dynamics are chassis dynamics. Like anything there is some fine tuning to be done to dial the car in to the specific wants, but overall the only time I see "track" shocks differing much from autox shocks in when the track setup is just a basic linear valving which damps the springs, but doesn't help you on turn in response, how fast the car sets, etc. And track cars can get away with that better being less transitional and more sweepy. So where good shocks might help an autox car 1 second over 45, they might help a track car 1 second over 1:30. But that's still time, and not only time--but comfort and ease of driving the car near or @ the limit which makes for more consistent times too.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Not to be to blunt about this, but.... The car has no idea where it is. Dampers have a job to do, which is damp sprung and unsprung mass. Is that any different on a track car than an autox car?

Nah, blunt's fine... Your further comment about transitional rates in the two events is kind of what I was thinking of...

Bottom line is balance is balance, response is response. What you are getting at is paramount to saying that a hot autox tire like a Hoosier A6 won't work on a track. We know it does and in fact most run that tire over the last few years over the R6.

That was the crux of my hesitation... A6 (autocross compound) is designed to grip IMMEDIATELY, with no real heat in the tire, but will grease up VERY quickly on the track. It's not uncommon, from my TT experience, to see the A6 crowd go out and turn their hot laps on lap two or three of a run, and the R6 crowd do it on lap four, five, or six. I run the R6, since I also instruct for a couple of other groups where coming in after a couple of laps on a 20 or 25 minute session just isn't in the cards. Same deal with brakes. Autocross focused compounds are designed for great initial bite with little or no heat, whereas the "race" compounds need heat in them to get to a point where they really work.

I know that sometimes autoxers and track guys smash heads, but setting aside any personal animosity chassis dynamics are chassis dynamics. Like anything there is some fine tuning to be done to dial the car in to the specific wants, but overall the only time I see "track" shocks differing much from autox shocks in when the track setup is just a basic linear valving which damps the springs, but doesn't help you on turn in response, how fast the car sets, etc. And track cars can get away with that better being less transitional and more sweepy. So where good shocks might help an autox car 1 second over 45, they might help a track car 1 second over 1:30. But that's still time, and not only time--but comfort and ease of driving the car near or @ the limit which makes for more consistent times too.

That works for me... I agree that chassis dynamics are the constant, and doesn't change based on the event. I was just worried that the "hot" damper for autocross might have something in the valving curves, or whatever, that would make them less than ideal for more the subtle open-track work. No animosity here, at all, towards autocrossers. I have a friend that autocrosses... lol!

In all seriousness, though, you have cleared up my apprehensions about the specific applications, so now you can anticipate a phone call for an order... We'll figure out the single/double/triple and inverted thing over the phone.

 

[Vapour Trails]

I would disagree that autocross tire compounds work well without any heat. They still need some warm-up before they grip, just not as much as a track tire.

Up here in Soviet Canuckistan, during early spring and late fall events, it's impossible to get any heat in the tires and you slide around like a puck on ice unless you have a co-driver and use tire warmers/insulators.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I would disagree that autocross tire compounds work well without any heat. They still need some warm-up before they grip, just not as much as a track tire.

Up here in Soviet Canuckistan, during early spring and late fall events, it's impossible to get any heat in the tires and you slide around like a puck on ice unless you have a co-driver and use tire warmers/insulators.

Okay, caught out by a technicality... ;-)

 

[Sam Strano]

Not sure about this year @ Road America, but @ the previous Runoff's @ HPT most every Hoosier runner was on A6's...

Just a softer compound, like most any road racing series that's not spec tired has. Michelin offers multiples for SportsCars, IndyCar has different compounds, F1, etc. Sure sometimes the compounds might be too soft, or the harder one too hard. But unlike adjustable dampers you can't change that.

Still working on the spring rates Dave and final pricing. Will have the bars out by Monday or Tuesday (need to finish some links for you).