Power adders, wives and GT500s

[RocketcarX]

So I've been looking at the last phase of my build, horsepower. I don't have any. Currently power-wise my car is stock long block with long tubes a no-tune K&N intake and tuning. Obviously I'm willing to build the best engine I can, so I'm not asking for stock component advice.

I've been sort of pushed towards turbos because I feel like I can build the system myself without having to let of go so much money at one time as most kits cost, and as the perception of reliable power.

I've considered blowers of almost every type as well, I had a procharger kit at one point I ended up selling to a forum member....somewhat wish I hadn't, lol.

My buddy (owns GT500) thinks I should boost it, he's probably right for easy access to power right now, thats the thing though, he ignores my bigger picture.

I'm building myself an 1/8 mile grudge car, street deal, no class in mind, just my idea of what I want.
I'm staying on small tires, the horsepower big tire cars need to remain competitive is just not for my pocketbook.
Full BMR stock style suspension with hiem joints from to back, TH400 trans with Pro-Brake, weight reduction, no amenities, no dead weight.

Personally I want to build a stoker motor and spray it using 2-3 kits. I really like the light weight nature and instant power of nitrous, not to mention the simplicity that goes with lining out a bottle baby at the line vs. the fuckery that goes with boost and staging.
It's sort of romantic to me, the old school street demon on the bottle, just plain American. Not to mention the option to only use the power needed to win, no always showing your hand with all the power all the time.
My wife is worried bout nitrous backfires and burnt pistons, I'm not, but she isn't wrong either, at least in the carbureted world.

I guess what I'm asking is; is there some reason I can't build a nitrous stroker mod monster? Or is my money better spent on stock stroke and turbos?

Logic seems to be saying the turbo is cheaper in the long run, I'm just not sure it really is once you do at the things that need doing to make the car leave hard and consistently. A turbo build requires at least as much added electronics as a nitrous car, and a much higher end transmission set up to allow boost at the line, not to mention the extra 150lbs or more of turbo related components.

I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000hp at the flywheel would be the goal, yes, I know even that is considered lofty, I'm in no rush.

 

[Thenorm]

I'm building myself an 1/8 mile grudge car, street deal, no class in mind, just my idea of what I want.
I'm staying on small tires, the horsepower big tire cars need to remain competitive is just not for my pocketbook.

as a racer (not drag racing though), i suggest going to the rule book first, find your class, then build to suit.

sometimes just one stupid little mod will bump you a class, and then you are really non competitive.

 

[RocketcarX]

as a racer (not drag racing though), i suggest going to the rule book first, find your class, then build to suit.

sometimes just one stupid little mod will bump you a class, and then you are really non competitive.

Most of the racing I'm interested in is only divided by tire size

 

[46addict]

Nitrous is a finite resource. There is a shortage in the southeast due to a plant going down and most people are dry. The people who have some left are charging $10 per lb. At least that's the case around me. I would use it as a supplement on a boosted setup but I wouldn't rely on it by itself.

I would piece together a turbo kit so you can choose exactly what components you want. The boxed supercharger kits come with parts you'd end up upgrading anyway. Unless you're dropping the cash on a DOB R spec.

 

[stkjock]

in the short run, N2O will be "cheap" compared to a boosted set up, most of the work would transfer over to a boosted application (strong motor, fuel system,transmission, suspension, etc)

no reason you can't go the NOooosssssss route first and if you're not please/competitive, move to a boosted set up.

 

[skaarlaj]

IMO, nitrous is cool because it's cheap. As soon as you start adding bottle warmers, remote openers, and other stuff making the system easier to use and or more reliable, you've spent too much money for a nitrous system. When it works it's great, but in my experience it isn't as reliable as boost from a blower has been for me. Too much bottle pressure - solonoid won't open, cold bottle - surging, empty bottles when you thought you had more, bla bla bla, good thing it's cheap.

I also don't see a consistency problem with launching a blower car, although getting a turbo car spooling before being fully staged would be a pita for me, and is why I've always chosen a blower over a turbo regardless of making less power per pound of boost.

Another thing for nitrous is that for me only ever running a single kit so far, I like a bigger 15# bottle, (and they still don't hold enough imo), and when full they weigh between 35-40 lbs. although it's lighter than a blower of any sort and placed over the rear wheels, it's still adding weight regardless.

So for me who has had cars with blowers, nitrous, nitrous on top of blowers, I'd stay away from the nitrous, unless it was a junker fox body trying to capture a number with the least amount of money spent, otherwise get a blower and minimize the headaches. Hope this helps.

 

[Sky Render]

The only thing I have to add about nitrous is that your nitrous tune will have timing retarded at WOT. So if you're not running nitrous, you'll have no WOT power. IOW, you'll have to swap tunes every time you switch between an N/A and boosted run. There's no way to leave the line with N/A power and then halfway down the strip change your mind.

This is mainly because you're limited with how much of a dry shot you can use.

 

[slackinoff]

I vote DOB spec R. Also, where is your local track? Mine is pine valley raceway.

Rm

 

[skaarlaj]

The only thing I have to add about nitrous is that your nitrous tune will have timing retarded at WOT. So if you're not running nitrous, you'll have no WOT power. IOW, you'll have to swap tunes every time you switch between an N/A and boosted run. There's no way to leave the line with N/A power and then halfway down the strip change your mind.

This is mainly because you're limited with how much of a dry shot you can use.

I used a wet 125 shot on my 03 Lightning with 5* subtracted global timing, and honestly when not using the nitrous I couldn't feel a difference, although a dyno, or a tenth or two on a clean run at the track would prove me wrong, but point being, it won't be like driving an absolute pig on a tune that's anticipating nitrous use with less timing advance. I did the same thing on a Fox mustang, and actually had no audible detonation with no tune and the same timing I used without nitrous, in other words, I didn't even have to subtract timing with that car for whatever reason. Plugs also never showed signs of problems either
on that one.

 

[Sky Render]

Mmm, I figured for a full-on nitrous build you'd be using E85 and a much bigger shot than 125, which would require (I would think) pulling more than just a little bit of timing.

Heck, I say go for it. I kind of want to put nitrous on my car, because a power adder that's "always on" is bad for a car used for autox and road course. With a nitrous setup I could just run the bottle at the strip.

 

[RocketcarX]

Nitrous is a finite resource. There is a shortage in the southeast due to a plant going down and most people are dry. The people who have some left are charging $10 per lb. At least that's the case around me. I would use it as a supplement on a boosted setup but I wouldn't rely on it by itself.

I would piece together a turbo kit so you can choose exactly what components you want. The boxed supercharger kits come with parts you'd end up upgrading anyway. Unless you're dropping the cash on a DOB R spec.

I've heard about the shortage, haven't seen it's affects locally. I'm wondering if they will pick back up the supply or leave production as is.

in the short run, N2O will be "cheap" compared to a boosted set up, most of the work would transfer over to a boosted application (strong motor, fuel system,transmission, suspension, etc)

no reason you can't go the NOooosssssss route first and if you're not please/competitive, move to a boosted set up.

I've has this thought too, lol. Same outside of compassion in the motor, that's where I get hung up on the idea of switching later. Required piston change.

I vote DOB spec R. Also, where is your local track? Mine is pine valley raceway.

Rm

Since they closed Navasota I haven't been to a track

 

[RocketcarX]

IMO, nitrous is cool because it's cheap. As soon as you start adding bottle warmers, remote openers, and other stuff making the system easier to use and or more reliable, you've spent too much money for a nitrous system. When it works it's great, but in my experience it isn't as reliable as boost from a blower has been for me. Too much bottle pressure - solonoid won't open, cold bottle - surging, empty bottles when you thought you had more, bla bla bla, good thing it's cheap.

I also don't see a consistency problem with launching a blower car, although getting a turbo car spooling before being fully staged would be a pita for me, and is why I've always chosen a blower over a turbo regardless of making less power per pound of boost.

Another thing for nitrous is that for me only ever running a single kit so far, I like a bigger 15# bottle, (and they still don't hold enough imo), and when full they weigh between 35-40 lbs. although it's lighter than a blower of any sort and placed over the rear wheels, it's still adding weight regardless.

So for me who has had cars with blowers, nitrous, nitrous on top of blowers, I'd stay away from the nitrous, unless it was a junker fox body trying to capture a number with the least amount of money spent, otherwise get a blower and minimize the headaches. Hope this helps.

Honestly I've been thinking Procharger if the nitrous is a bust. The roots style blowers seem to really suffer from heat soak and the turbo required more add ons to control it just so. I've been spending a lot of time planning as if I was going to build a turbo car and I have to say it's the longest list I've made yet, lol.

 

[stkjock]

I've has this thought too, lol. Same outside of compassion in the motor, that's where I get hung up on the idea of switching later. Required piston change.

HUH? you can run higher compression with boost, depending on fuel the amount of boost will vary.

 

[RocketcarX]

HUH? you can run higher compression with boost, depending on fuel the amount of boost will vary.

I know, I just meant for optimum characteristics and remaining pump gas friendly.
If I really build this thing with the N2O goal in mind I want to push it to the edge of N/A horsepower through stroking and compression. I would like to keep the VCT as well.

I refuse to use e85, for many reasons.

 

[skaarlaj]

Mmm, I figured for a full-on nitrous build you'd be using E85 and a much bigger shot than 125, which would require (I would think) pulling more than just a little bit of timing.

Heck, I say go for it. I kind of want to put nitrous on my car, because a power adder that's "always on" is bad for a car used for autox and road course. With a nitrous setup I could just run the bottle at the strip.

No that was just one of my experiences with nitrous. Surely the bigger the shot, the less timing the motor could stand, but in some cases I'd say that a nitrous tune and the less timing advace usually associated with it wouldn't be too damn terrible running while not actually using nitrous is all.

 

[skaarlaj]

Honestly I've been thinking Procharger if the nitrous is a bust. The roots style blowers seem to really suffer from heat soak and the turbo required more add ons to control it just so. I've been spending a lot of time planning as if I was going to build a turbo car and I have to say it's the longest list I've made yet, lol.

On the two centri systems I've installed I've had pulley / belt issues arise from the drive systems, but I've sorted them out. One was a procharger, and my current Paxton. I've installed 1 PD twin screw blower, and have owned 2 other roots blower cars that have all ran well, were packaged nicely onto the cars, but seem to make alot of IAT heat and probably a little less power per # of boost compared to a centri.

So for all out max power for drag racing, I'd lean towards a centri, but be prepared for gearing changes and fiddling to figure out the correct stall converter. For a very solid running car that sees alot of street miles, and killer throttle response, I'd lean towards a tvs roots, or twin screw and although correct gears and stall speed will still matter it will be far less sensitive in those areas compared to a centri. And quite honestly, if there's going to be a next time, I'll fight my way through installing and sorting out a turbo system simply because of the power they're capable of with no "drive" system to even think about, but then I'm sure you'll hear me whining about under-hood heat, and fried wiring, and or hoses because of it lol! I have a friend that has had 3 different converters in his turbo LS C10 truck, and until he got it right, the truck did not run a good number especially for the power level he was at, and that is one reason I've stayed away from turbos thus far, but now that it is all sorted the truck is simply brutally quick.

 

[01yellerCobra]

My buddy runs nitrous in his Charger. He loves the button. But the issues he's had keeps me away from ever running it. It seems every time we want to go out he needs to fill the bottle. And there was a time he was getting bad fills so he'd only get 1 or 2 hits out of it.

I have a 97 GT I'm looking at making a drag car eventually. I've had a few ideas for engines running through my head, but if I decide to go FI I'm going with a turbo set up on E85. I have the same power goal as you. But this car will just be for fun. I like that the turbo can be turned down when needed and cranked up when I want to get serious.

 

[RocketcarX]

On the two centri systems I've installed I've had pulley / belt issues arise from the drive systems, but I've sorted them out. One was a procharger, and my current Paxton. I've installed 1 PD twin screw blower, and have owned 2 other roots blower cars that have all ran well, were packaged nicely onto the cars, but seem to make alot of IAT heat and probably a little less power per # of boost compared to a centri.

So for all out max power for drag racing, I'd lean towards a centri, but be prepared for gearing changes and fiddling to figure out the correct stall converter. For a very solid running car that sees alot of street miles, and killer throttle response, I'd lean towards a tvs roots, or twin screw and although correct gears and stall speed will still matter it will be far less sensitive in those areas compared to a centri. And quite honestly, if there's going to be a next time, I'll fight my way through installing and sorting out a turbo system simply because of the power they're capable of with no "drive" system to even think about, but then I'm sure you'll hear me whining about under-hood heat, and fried wiring, and or hoses because of it lol! I have a friend that has had 3 different converters in his turbo LS C10 truck, and until he got it right, the truck did not run a good number especially for the power level he was at, and that is one reason I've stayed away from turbos thus far, but now that it is all sorted the truck is simply brutally quick.

The under hood heat is my draw back for a roots/tvs/twin screw/non-centri blower.
Same for turbo adding also the additional system density from all the hot and cold side plumbing that a turbo brings to the table.
If nitrous is a no-go I think a Procharger can meet my power goals as easily as a turbo can, of course using the 10 rib or whatever drive from the beginning with drag racing in mind.

 

[RocketcarX]

My buddy runs nitrous in his Charger. He loves the button. But the issues he's had keeps me away from ever running it. It seems every time we want to go out he needs to fill the bottle. And there was a time he was getting bad fills so he'd only get 1 or 2 hits out of it.

I have a 97 GT I'm looking at making a drag car eventually. I've had a few ideas for engines running through my head, but if I decide to go FI I'm going with a turbo set up on E85. I have the same power goal as you. But this car will just be for fun. I like that the turbo can be turned down when needed and cranked up when I want to get serious.

I would do a pumping station and mother bottle set up in my shop, hopefully adding a level of control and constancy to my program. I have the same fear of not being able to keep bottle full.

 

[slackinoff]

I would do a pumping station and mother bottle set up in my shop, hopefully adding a level of control and constancy to my program. I have the same fear of not being able to keep bottle full.

I think that is a great idea if you do N2O. That takes it up a notch. To me it would be much more fun just knowing you have a truckload readily available.

Rm