So, I must have a bad fuel injector or two...

[MrClean]

I can't seem to run the Bama 93, or even 91 Race and TQ tunes without severly retarding the timing. I get pinging at the HP peak (5500) at WOT in 4th (heavy load). They're fine up to 4k or so. The 91 Race tune I had to retard above 4k 4º, and increase richness 4%, but I could still feel the engine dropping the timing back further (I could feel a little loss in power under WOT).

For clarification purposes, I only (have ever only) bought Shell V-Premium 93 octane fuel.

Even the 87Perf, I got some slight pinging at 5500, so I retarded timing 1º above 4000, and advanced timing 2º below 4000 to get some of the torque back, then increased WOT A/F richnes 2%. That combo seems to work: feels peppy and torquey below 4000, but no pining at 5500.

I read the maintenance schedule manual for the car, and not once does it mention flushing the injectors. I'm wondering if I should have the local shop do that for me and see if there's a difference, although I should probably run some fuel injector cleaner through first.

I'd love to run the 91TQ tune again...the TQ tune's my favorite.

Any suggestions?

 

[W1ldcat]

Never add any additive to your gas. I have read it many times that it's bad to do and really messes up the plugs and stuff.
Sorry I'm no help with the real problem, but just know about the additive thing.

 

[ucfstang]

Mine doesn't handle increased timing well either. I took my car down to VMP to get it tuned a few months ago and Justin said my car was not handling the increase in timing nearly as well as other 05+ GTs that he's done. He's a very experienced tuner so I don't doubt his abilities at all. I don't know exactly what degree of timing I'm running, but when running the timings he normally does on these cars, I started getting some knocking. Perhaps you and I suffer from the same issue. I have no tried the Bama tune yet though...

 

[KILLER06GT]

Why not try a different gas, like sunoco. I had problems with some of the shell stations around here.

 

[1Fast05Turbo]

Why not try a different gas, like sunoco. I had problems with some of the shell stations around here.

+1 on Shell gas. I had problems with Shell. Now I use Sunoco or BP

 

[MrClean]

I am..good suggestion. I'm going to try (in this order) Chevron, they're the 2nd most accessible, then the only other choices I have are Valero, and Mobil, Exxon (the same thing really). Sure as shit I ain't putting the Kroger grocery store stuff in there!

 

[matt texass]

ya i tried that kroger stuff.......... no bueno

 

[MrClean]

Mery Christmas Matt!

 

[94tbird]

shell is on the top tier retailers list for best fuel

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

 

[shawn13]

I cant run Dougs 91 or 93 tune in my car.When we got the ping out(5000 rpm and up)I lost about 30hp but it was safe (no power at all) to drive home.Im using a brenspeed tune now with very good power and no pinging.

 

[Hawgman]

Sure as shit I ain't putting the Kroger grocery store stuff in there!

That's kinda funny. Chevron trucks fill the tanks at the Kroger fuel store here by the house.
Do you actually know who supplies your perticular Kroger's gas?

 

[MrClean]

That's kinda funny. Chevron trucks fill the tanks at the Kroger fuel store here by the house.
Do you actually know who supplies your perticular Kroger's gas?

The delivery is made by what in the industry is called a "jobber", essentially a distributor like JAM fuels.

The way the traders for the Wallmarts/Krogers/Randalls work, is that they'll buy from a variety of sources, depending on what pricing/terms they get (sometimes even with, or as a result of, embedded swaps or options used for price hedging purposes), so while your local Kroger's may get CVX gas sometimes, there's no guarantee that will always be the case....it could get gas from a "blender" who bought off-spec gas and "blended" up with an oxygenate to meet specs, then made an offer that CVX couldn't beat because the seller had more margin in the deal and could therefore afford to sell for less.

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

That's kinda funny. Chevron trucks fill the tanks at the Kroger fuel store here by the house.
Do you actually know who supplies your perticular Kroger's gas?

LOL!! You got that right Doc!!

Most gas in our area comes from a few sources on the outside of town at the "tank farm." They just pour a little vial of something in it and call it brand "XYZ."

Hell I use Sams, Kroger, and Tom Thumb with no problems what-so-ever.

Only two things matter to me about gas: 93 (R+M)/2 AKI and the $$$$ per gallon!

It all comes out of the same horse so to speak!

Mike

Mike

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

I can't seem to run the Bama 93, or even 91 Race and TQ tunes without severly retarding the timing. I get pinging at the HP peak (5500) at WOT in 4th (heavy load). They're fine up to 4k or so. The 91 Race tune I had to retard above 4k 4º, and increase richness 4%, but I could still feel the engine dropping the timing back further (I could feel a little loss in power under WOT).

For clarification purposes, I only (have ever only) bought Shell V-Premium 93 octane fuel.

Even the 87Perf, I got some slight pinging at 5500, so I retarded timing 1º above 4000, and advanced timing 2º below 4000 to get some of the torque back, then increased WOT A/F richnes 2%. That combo seems to work: feels peppy and torquey below 4000, but no pining at 5500.

I read the maintenance schedule manual for the car, and not once does it mention flushing the injectors. I'm wondering if I should have the local shop do that for me and see if there's a difference, although I should probably run some fuel injector cleaner through first.

I'd love to run the 91TQ tune again...the TQ tune's my favorite.

Any suggestions?

How long have you had these tunes? It could be that they were developed with 100% gasoline (with MTBE for oxygenate) rather than the 90% gas/10% ethanol they are using now.

Also, winter gas is more volatile than summer gas so that may be causing you an issue as well, say if the tune was developed on summer fuel and the summer fuel is different enough than the winter fuel so the winter fuel causes an issue.

Also don't forget as air temps drop, air density increase so you need a lot more fuel--However, that should be taken care of in the tune.

Have you added anything that may cause a vibration? If the knock sensors pickup an added vibration, that may be what is retarding your timing. It would need to be a sharp rapping like vibration for this to happen.

One thing you may want to try is a dyno tune from HPP with the gas of your choice in the tank. That way, local conditions are taken into account. I've never had ping on any of the tunes from HPP and as I stated above, I use non-brand name gas all the time.

Hope this helps.

Mike

 

[1Fast05Turbo]

shell is on the top tier retailers list for best fuel

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

It might be but over the last few years there had been a few incidents affecting Shell. It seems that there are more incidents with shell than any other brand.. That's why I don't use Shell.

 

[MrClean]

How long have you had these tunes? It could be that they were developed with 100% gasoline (with MTBE for oxygenate) rather than the 90% gas/10% ethanol they are using now.

Also, winter gas is more volatile than summer gas so that may be causing you an issue as well, say if the tune was developed on summer fuel and the summer fuel is different enough than the winter fuel so the winter fuel causes an issue.

Also don't forget as air temps drop, air density increase so you need a lot more fuel--However, that should be taken care of in the tune.

Have you added anything that may cause a vibration? If the knock sensors pickup an added vibration, that may be what is retarding your timing. It would need to be a sharp rapping like vibration for this to happen.

One thing you may want to try is a dyno tune from HPP with the gas of your choice in the tank. That way, local conditions are taken into account. I've never had ping on any of the tunes from HPP and as I stated above, I use non-brand name gas all the time.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Good points. In fact, the ETOH content can be up to 15%, and as you pointed out the ETOH in of itself is more volatile than what was being used before (methanol?). I'm attempting one last thing before driving to an HPP for a dyno-tune: I ordered a tune from Brenspeed (a couple of people that had this exact issue with Doug's tune switched to Brent's tunes with good results). I communicated with Nrent directly to tell him what the issue was, and when I ordered the tune I was careful to ensure the order-taker noted that gas in Texas is in fact oxugenated with ETOH, and the approx content, that I wanted all the O2 sensors on, and that I wanted the knock sensors on, and the issues I'd been having with the pre-ignition.

As to the other point you make, Brent did say that there's a TSB on valvetrain noise that sometimes "tricks" the knock sensors into thinking there's knock, but I've heard pinging enough before ('97 Dodge 318ci, '00 Dodge 360ci, '98 F-150 4.2L V6) to know what it sounds like....and how do I tell the dealer that he has a warranty issue on his hands because my much-more-aggressive-tune-than-stock results in detonation at 5500 rpm onder WOT in 4rth? Also I have nothing in/on the engine other than stock (the engine/engine bay is stock other than the K&N drop-in flat panel air filter). The Stinger's ARE a lot louder than stock, and sub 2000 do cuase a lot more vibes, but goes away past 2k. The engine does have a "natural" vibration in the 3000-3200 range, kinda like a warble, and there is a noticeable dip in power, even at partial throttle right there....I wonder if that dip (which I always assumed was just a defect in the cam or something) could be the knock sensors interpreteting the sound as preignition and retarding timing?

Are there any tuners in Houston that can do this type of fine tuning?
BTW, do you have the HPP contact numbers, or just the website, and whom do I ask for?

 

[Dread53]

I'll relay my particular experience with additives and you can take it however you want. (Fairly long story, but I'll try for brevity)

'85 T-bird Turbo Coupe that would spit, sputter and almost die if you got into boost below 3000 rpm, then finally hit 3000 and run like a champ. All the driveability boys at the dealership were telling me I needed everything from plugs wires and plugs to a complete new ignition. I tried the usual, including a new TFI module, with no change. On a whim I decided to use some of the Ford cleaner (the stuff that used to be added to a machine flush) in a tank on a road trip. 200 miles later I had no problem and the car was running MUCH better. I used a can of that stuff every 5000 miles until they stopped making it and never had any fuel system issues. This stuff specifically said it was never to be added to a fuel system directly! The car had over 180K miles on it when I got divorced and she was still driving it, and I had started using the additive at around 80K. I had a 3000 foot change of elevation to and from work, so this car saw alot of time under boost.

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

Good points. In fact, the ETOH content can be up to 15%, and as you pointed out the ETOH in of itself is more volatile than what was being used before (methanol?). I'm attempting one last thing before driving to an HPP for a dyno-tune: I ordered a tune from Brenspeed (a couple of people that had this exact issue with Doug's tune switched to Brent's tunes with good results). I communicated with Nrent directly to tell him what the issue was, and when I ordered the tune I was careful to ensure the order-taker noted that gas in Texas is in fact oxugenated with ETOH, and the approx content, that I wanted all the O2 sensors on, and that I wanted the knock sensors on, and the issues I'd been having with the pre-ignition.

As to the other point you make, Brent did say that there's a TSB on valvetrain noise that sometimes "tricks" the knock sensors into thinking there's knock, but I've heard pinging enough before ('97 Dodge 318ci, '00 Dodge 360ci, '98 F-150 4.2L V6) to know what it sounds like....and how do I tell the dealer that he has a warranty issue on his hands because my much-more-aggressive-tune-than-stock results in detonation at 5500 rpm onder WOT in 4rth? Also I have nothing in/on the engine other than stock (the engine/engine bay is stock other than the K&N drop-in flat panel air filter). The Stinger's ARE a lot louder than stock, and sub 2000 do cuase a lot more vibes, but goes away past 2k. The engine does have a "natural" vibration in the 3000-3200 range, kinda like a warble, and there is a noticeable dip in power, even at partial throttle right there....I wonder if that dip (which I always assumed was just a defect in the cam or something) could be the knock sensors interpreteting the sound as preignition and retarding timing?

Are there any tuners in Houston that can do this type of fine tuning?
BTW, do you have the HPP contact numbers, or just the website, and whom do I ask for?

Sorry about that, I thought you were in the DFW area! I think Dyno Joe can take care of you in Houston. BTW, I got one of those 318s in my 97 Dakota and yes, I know how it sounds when it starts knockin!

That dip you feel at 3000-3200 indicates stray vibrations are affecting your knock sensors. Have your knock sensors been taken out? I know you have to be really careful installing them as they may have some special goop to coat the threads and also require a specific amount of torque that needs to be dead on from what I have read and heard.

I have no idea where they are on our cars, but something solid touching one of them could transmit all sorts of vibes to it.

Here are some TSBs that may be handy:

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=490&d=1177887015

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=503&d=1177887722

The last one specifically mentions 3200rpm!

HPP can be reached at 972-395-9844--ask for Manny.

http://www.hppmotorsports.com/home.html

BTW, 1 gallon of pure toluene and 4 oz of Marvel Mystery Oil will safely raise your octane level 1 number (10 points) from 93 to 94 if you mix it with 93 and fill up. Last I got was $8 per gallon at an oil/gasoline/etc. delivery supplier.

Hope this helps.

 

[MrClean]

Thanks!