Trac Con Advance Trac, coming back on

martin_nj

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I just don't want to end up in an inadvertent slide due to using just a smidgen too much brake pedal. I have no delusions about my driving skill and familiarity pushing this platform to the limit - I don't know where it is, nor do I really know what I'm doing.
you have a really healthy mindset for learning, but don't fear something you don't fully understand.

the hawk's will be great for learning on track. they don't pack as much oomph as a real race pad and while they may feel amazing hitting them once on the highway on a circuit they will heat soak and fade a bit (depending what speed you drive)

also you won't go into a crazy slide if you do lock them up, just be sure to let up and unlock the wheels.

you'll have a good instructor (i hope) when you go out on track and they'll give you the guidance to start driving with no ABS
 

Norm Peterson

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My big aversion to losing ABS at this point is I have absolutely zero road course experience, and the pads I have (hawk HP+) are ridiculously easy to lock the tires on.
I know those pads do bite quite strongly and right away compared to either HPS or OE. But I think that's more about the initial bite than about any basic grabbiness or bite that would get progressively stronger.

The HP+/HPS combination that I'm running seems to be very good for dry weather - can practically stand the car on its nose on a 90 to 60 snub without getting into the ABS (and did just that over the past weekend as a demonstration for my wife's benefit). In mixed snow/rain, the fronts only can be put into ABS without trying all that hard, and that's something you need to understand and respect.


Norm
 
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Napoleon85

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I know those pads do bite quite strongly and right away compared to either HPS or OE. But I think that's more about the initial bite than about any basic grabbiness or bite that would get progressively stronger.

The HP+/HPS combination that I'm running seems to be very good for dry weather - can practically stand the car on its nose on a 90 to 60 snub without getting into the ABS (and did just that over the past weekend as a demonstration for my wife's benefit). In mixed snow/rain, the fronts only can be put into ABS without trying all that hard, and that's something you need to understand and respect.


Norm


Interesting, I'm running the HP+/HPS setup (I'm about to switch to HPS on the fronts for street duty because the squeal is too much for me - but that's another story) and I can get into ABS pretty easily at "normal road speeds." It does seem that it's only when the car is almost stopped though, I've never came close to locking them up/hitting ABS when hitting it from a higher speed, but that is probably because I don't just go two feet in every time I have to brake.

Thanks for all the feedback guys! :beer:
 

Napoleon85

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I was informed in another thread that Advancetrac has it's own fuse (#34 on the panel inside the cabin) that can be pulled to permanently disable it. I verified this via page 237 of the owners manual, and will test it out after work.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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i'm all for ABS on the street, but like norm says out on track it is hindering learning
I guess it can hinder learning, but I damn sure use ABS on track. A lot. The best part I've seen is 1) a boost in driver confidence, and 2) real time brake balancing, with independent 4 wheel modulation, at a very fast rate. The ABS system on the s197 is amazingly good - so much so we're transplanting it to other platforms. Shhh.... don't tell!

Once you have raced without ABS, then with it... usually racers don't want to go back to "without".

Weird that the traction control would turn itself back on. That sucks. :rant:
 

martin_nj

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you forgot #3 - preventing tire flat spotting


i think i was sliding it too much and it got angry at me and turned itself back on
 

martin_nj

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nvm = never mind ... i thought the download was blocked but ended up right click and save as and it worked...

it is just the owners manual, nothing special

edit > 5.8mb if anyone is wondering
 

Norm Peterson

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Yeah, it was the easiest way for me (at home) to put up the detail about where fuse #34 actually lives for anybody away from easy access to the OM. And add another one to my own collection while I was at it.

Truth be told, I'm a little surprised that the OMs are that readily available.


Norm
 

frank s

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nvm = never mind ... i thought the download was blocked but ended up right click and save as and it worked...

it is just the owners manual, nothing special

edit > 5.8mb if anyone is wondering

I see. Curiously, I stlll get the lockout page and none of my options include saving the target, just the page the URL goes to, quite useless.

I did get the file from Mr FordOwner's site. The '13 is in its third edition. Wish I was patient enough to compare the various versions to see what errors there are or what otherwise merited another edition. Surely there must have been some significant changes.
 

martin_nj

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I pulled the fuse this weekend. I did lose ABS unfortunately

Seems like there is no way to disable just TC/SC and keep ABS on
 

SoundGuyDave

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They're not separate circuits, they're all part of the CAN-bus network. The TC/SC is just a software kernel living in the ECU, that works part of it's magic through throttle manipulation, and part through selectively engaging the output circuits of the ABS pump. Any "full disable" mod is going to have to be software-based...

Oh, and "real men" don't use ABS. "Real men" also get beat in the braking zones, tend to slide off the end of the track in the wet, and love the "thumpety-thumpety" sound of flat-spotted race rubber... ;-)
 

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Oh, and "real men" don't use ABS. "Real men" also get beat in the braking zones, tend to slide off the end of the track in the wet, and love the "thumpety-thumpety" sound of flat-spotted race rubber... ;-)

Hehe, yea. All of this "ABS is bad" nonsense was dispelled a decade ago. Hinders learning? Hurts performance? That is 100% hogwash. You might as well say "Horsepower is bad - it makes winning too easy, so Real Men unplug the coils on two cylinders!"

ABS is so important that this is the single driving factor between the optional power-to-weight ratios in NASA's popular American Iron racing series (Camaros, Mustangs, etc). Look at this:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/american_iron_rules.pdf - current AI rules

6.1 American Iron (Power)
The “American Iron” (AI) class has a strict 9.5:1 (9.5 pounds of vehicle weight per each horsepower) power to weight ratio maximum and 9:1 (9 pounds of vehicle weight per each foot-pound) torque to weight ratio maximum as measured at the rear wheels. All vehicles that compete in this class may have less than the specified amount but may not exceed the 9.5:1 and 9:1 HP & TQ ratios, unless specified in the Table 6.1 below.

Code:
[B]Table 6.1[/B]

[U] ABS TYPE........................................POWER LEVEL              [/U]
None ........................................9.00:1 HP / 8.50:1 TQ ratio
Any OEM ABS (except 2005+ Ford)..............9.25:1 HP / 8.75:1 TQ ratio
2005+ Ford ABS Only .........................9.50:1 HP / 9.00:1 TQ ratio
So, not only do you get to run a more favorable power to weight ratio if you remove the ABS - because that is proven to slow your car's performance on track - the 2005-up Mustang ABS system is handicapped even more! Why? Because it works so well that S197s are crushing the National level AI fields. Racers in non-S197s have been complaining bitterly because they get out-braked by 50-100 feet, and when you have the same power and weight (ratio) as anyone else, that's where all the passing happens. So they made this adjusted power-to-weight handicap to help the non-S197s. Let's look at the AI Nationals results from 2012...



Look at the top 7 finishers: all S197 Mustangs, and I'd wager that they all had their ABS fully functional. 7 more of the 19 finishers, also in S197s. They all have the same basic power-to-weight ratio (with the S197 ABS cars adjusted to the worst one possible), all are stick axle, RWD, almost all are McStrut cars... but the biggest differences are in the ABS system. The S197 ABS is considered "God-like" (not my words) and many industrious AI racers are swapping the S197 ABS system onto their SN95 and Fox Mustangs, gladly taking the power-to-weight hit.




At the last NASA race I attended (Hallett, June) I took pictures during several of the AI races. The majority of the spins and offs were cars that had ABS systems removed or worse, that failed for some reason.

All this "Real men don't use ABS" stuff is BAD INFORMATION for newbies to be reading. Please, tune out this noise and keep your ABS. Take it from someone who has raced for 26 years on track, with a decade+ of that in cars w/o ABS: LEAVE YOUR ABS FUNCTIONAL!!! ABS makes your car faster, every car made from ~1995-on has it, race cars keep ABS when it isn't banned, and ABS saves you money (flat spotted tires, crashes).

Of course, you should turn off the traction/stability control systems. Completely off - yes, hold the brake and press the button for 5 seconds. Yes it is a PITA, and if it re-activates while on track for some reason (that's a fault, not a normal condition) come in and reset it (unless you are in the middle of a W2W race). Leaving the traction/stability system active on a Mustang will burn up the rear brakes quickly, because the computer is using massing amounts of rear brake applications to prevent any tire slip or yaw. I forgot recently at a NASA event and it was FREAKY how much rear brake was being applied. Undrivable, had to blow off that session and come in.

Cheers,
 

SoundGuyDave

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Terry, while I agree with your sentiment 100%, there are a few nit-picky things in your post that we should probably illuminate... Not necessarily incorrect info, but perhaps not fully disclosed.

AI ABS-BASED P/W RATIOS: The S197-specific call-out and subsequent 0.5 power factor is based NOT on the OEM ABS system, but on the FR500S system. Since the FR500S system is "impossible" to differentiate visually from the stock GT system (label on the module "fell off" or was rendered illegible), that system is specifically penalized. The rule is that "OEM" ABS systems are legal, and the FR500S IS technically an OEM system, therefore... Yes, it was programmed with sticky race rubber, race pad compounds, and just about the exact optimum weight in mind, and demonstrates a CLEAR advantage (as you outlined), so rather than try to ban a part that is "unable" to be inspected, the assumption is that ALL S197 ABS systems are the race system, thus the penalty. In AI, where car construction costs CAN push $100K, the two thousand (tops!) that it would take to convert to the FR500S system is a drop in the bucket.

Second, the photos: All of the cars pictured in your photos of on-track hooning are from the CMC class. Camaro-Mustang-Challenge (CMC) is the "little brother" in the AI family, and in that particular class, ABS is illegal. Period. Even pulling the fuse isn't enough for the CMC crew, either remove the pump, or completely disconnect the wiring harness to the ABS rig. The S197 has become the red-headed stepchild of the series. Major power hits, weight penalties, tire-width penalties, all to try to get it to perform as badly as a Fox/SN95/3rd Gen/4th Gen... In essense, they drove out the S197 from the series.

The point remains, though, that ABS is perfectly fine on a race track. Can you out-brake the ABS? Sure you can, if your name is Dean Martin, Max Angelelli, or Randy Pobst. Maybe.
 
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