Whiteline Sway Settings?

[sholzer]

That is the softest setting. I'd recommend starting there and adjusting to how you like the car to feel

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, for your rear calculations, what are you using for the torsion bar arm length? 10"?

What about overall torsion bar effective length? 46.25"?

Here is what I have for all of them. Keep in mind that none of these numbers have been verified by a separate pair of eyes and that determining the intersection points is somewhat subject to individual judgment.

For convenience, Fred Puhn's nomenclature
A = projected arm bending length
B = torsion length
C = arm bending length measured along the arm


OE front bar - B = 31.0", C = 15", A = 14.05"
OE rear bar - B = 46.0", C = 10.0", A = 9.54"

Sam's 35mm - B = 32.0", C = 15.25"/14.25"/13.25", A = 14.49/13.44/12.37
Sam's 22mm - B = 47.25", C = 12.25"/11.25"/10.25", A = 12.24/11.24/10.24

For our bar, I use a 10" Arm Length, 46.25" Bar length....and they are 22mm. That puts me about 146lb/in. for our 22mm Rear Bar.

I'll run your bar numbers later to see what I get.


Norm

 

[NEMustang]

Given that the OP was asking about settings (tuning existing setup) and I helped jack the thread a little by posting about ARB stiffness, I wasn't sure if we should go a little further with this...

Has anyone (read: Norm) calculated the ride frequency of a stock GT and has the supporting numbers to share? From what little I understand, we should be looking at RF, determine target RF based on objectives (street, autox, open track/HPDE, Track Car, etc) and then purchase appropriate dampers, springs and ARB to accomplish the goal. Final tuning might be done by Damper settings, spring changes and/or ARB settings based on driving style/preferences and seat time.

This probably is more appropriate in a new thread...

 

[Sky Render]

That is the softest setting. I'd recommend starting there and adjusting to how you like the car to feel

This is correct. Leave the rear bar in the softest setting. The Whiteline rear bar is much stiffer than the OEM one, and the car can get tail happy really fast.

Take a look at my build thread for some pictures and tips for installing the bars:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98632

 

[Sky Render]

Also, here are some comparisons of the stock front and rear bars with their Whiteline equivalents:

 

[Norm Peterson]

Like this?


Sorry if it enlarges fuzzy - Photo Editor no longer works, not enough computer for really decent software, so I'm stuck using MS Paint.


Norm

 

[zquez]

Like this?


Sorry if it enlarges fuzzy - Photo Editor no longer works, not enough computer for really decent software, so I'm stuck using MS Paint.


Norm

Jesus. Tell me you're an engineer Norm. If you're not, what books have you been reading? I need to pick them up.

 

[NEMustang]

Like this?


Sorry if it enlarges fuzzy - Photo Editor no longer works, not enough computer for really decent software, so I'm stuck using MS Paint.


Norm

Thanks! That will help me...You know, I thoroughly enjoy all your posts on here and corner-carvers.com. The more I read and study, the more I realize how much I don't know!
Thanks Norm!

Is this spreadsheet available for my use somewhere or something you developed? I have seen numerous calculators and tools...I also use Performance Trends Suspension Analyzer as a base tool.

After this post, I will get my numbers together, do some more reading (studying!) and will start a new post on this...sorry for any thread jack.

Thanks,
David

 

[Norm Peterson]

Jesus. Tell me you're an engineer Norm.

All on my profile page.

I originally put that flat ride sheet together at least 9 years ago.


Sorted by author and probably not fully up to date, here's a list of what's on my automotive bookshelf.

Chassis Engineering (Herb Adams)
Performance Handling (Don Alexander)
Shock Absorber Handbook, Second Edition (John C. Dixon)
Chevrolet Power, 5th Edition (GM)
Basic Chassis, Suspension & Brakes (Hot Rod)
Chassis Brakes Suspension (Hot Rod)
Hot Rod Yearbook No. 11 (Hot Rod)
Mustang Performance Handbook 2 (William Mathis)
Race Car Vehicle Design (William & Doug Milliken)
Mopar Chassis (Mopar)
The Car and its Wheels (Jan P. Norbye)
Honda Builder's Handbook, Volume II (Joe Pettit)
How to Make Your Car Handle (Fred Puhn)
Camaro Performance Handbook (David Shelby)
Prepare to Win (Carroll Smith)
Tune to Win (Carroll Smith)
Race Car Engineering & Mechanics (Paul van Valkenburgh)

I've probably had Fred Puhn's book for 35 years (it was printed 11/76 and still has a $4.95 price sticker on the cover). It's got most of what you need for "flat ride" calculations except for the effects due to damping and the pitch and bounce frequency stuff.


Norm

 

[speedfreak1000]

thanks for the links Sky Render of the whiteline install. hoping to tackle that job tomorrow.

 

[cp85gt]

I am currently looking at sway bars for my Boss 302. I like the idea of the Whiteline rear bar which gives you the extra clearance for wider wheels but not the weight of a solid bar, especially the front . Griggs makes a rear bar that has good wheel clearance but requires the use of their relocation brackets. Taking the Griggs design and applying it to more of an oem type fitment there are suppliers you can buy sway bar components from, (rear bar + aluminum ends) that would give you the tire clearance with a oem style fitment. The place I looked at is http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Swaybars-Components-Standard&form_cat_id=216&action=category. You could have the aluminum bar offset bent and drill holes in the end for the axle attachment point. They have a 1" hollow rear bar that is 42" long which would give you about a 3/4" to 7/8" attachment length at the end of the bar using the stock style sway bar links. I of course do not understand the engineering behind translating bar diameter, wall thickness, length, and arm length and flex to determine the specs to match the rates of the aftermarket adjustable rear bars like Strano, Hellwig, Hotchkis, etc. without and long and expensive trial and error approach. It would be great if someone could figure this out for me. Any takers?

 

[Sky Render]

The weight differences of the solid versus hollow bars are negligible in terms of the sheer weight of the vehicle. Ditto on the "unsprung weight" issue of the Whiteline rear bars.

Sent from my toilet using Tapatalk

 

[speedfreak1000]

well got the swaybars on. i set the front on the 3rd hole and rear in the fourth and will see how goes and change from there.

the whiteline front bar is pretty heavy but i like the solid swaybar and the design of the rear is tits to me. i just couldnt figure out how to "set-up" the rear as far as the endlinks. didnt know if the end where the links hook to it needs to be parallel with the ground or if it should have an upward tilt to it at the end.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I am currently looking at sway bars for my Boss 302. I like the idea of the Whiteline rear bar which gives you the extra clearance for wider wheels but not the weight of a solid bar, especially the front . Griggs makes a rear bar that has good wheel clearance but requires the use of their relocation brackets. Taking the Griggs design and applying it to more of an oem type fitment there are suppliers you can buy sway bar components from, (rear bar + aluminum ends) that would give you the tire clearance with a oem style fitment. The place I looked at is http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Swaybars-Components-Standard&form_cat_id=216&action=category. You could have the aluminum bar offset bent and drill holes in the end for the axle attachment point. They have a 1" hollow rear bar that is 42" long which would give you about a 3/4" to 7/8" attachment length at the end of the bar using the stock style sway bar links. I of course do not understand the engineering behind translating bar diameter, wall thickness, length, and arm length and flex to determine the specs to match the rates of the aftermarket adjustable rear bars like Strano, Hellwig, Hotchkis, etc. without and long and expensive trial and error approach. It would be great if someone could figure this out for me. Any takers?

At least some of he circle track supply houses offer some sort of rate information, just that it isn't in lbs/inch format. Usually it's in a table, with units that look something like "lbs @ 5° bar twist", and does not consider any arm flexibility. Those numbers can be converted to lbs/in.

To obtain a more accurate overall stiffness of this kind of bar, you need to know the stiffness of the arms and this is probably more important for aluminum arms because aluminum is only about 1/3 as stiff as steel.

The calculations wouldn't have to involve any more center section torsion and arm bending, but the formula itself would be a bit more complex, even after you establish stiffness values for the arms. Which really isn't hard, just an extra step or two with their own formulas. I think my sta-bar spreadsheet can do the bar stiffness calcs if the arm stiffnesses are known, but I've never tried to use it that way.


Norm

 

[cp85gt]

Norm, I believe this is what you are referring to: http://www.1speedway.com/swaybar42.htm. Do you have a formula to convert those rates at 5 degrees of rotation to in/lbs? I imagine that they would have the info of loss of rate because of the flex of the arm. They also have steel arms if that gets the total rate closer to ideal. Is the rate of the OEM type arms measured at the axle attachment point or the endlink attachment point?

 

[Norm Peterson]

The approach is simple enough - the end of the arm that you'd be applying the load to will deflect sin(5°) x the arm length at the load given for each bar and arm length . . . approximately.

That actually gives you the end to end rate of the bar, which isn't quite the way you'd probably want to use the numbers to get to wheel rate effects. Same goes for Fred Puhn's formula. But you can at least make valid comparisons.

I strongly doubt that those tables consider arm flexibility. If you look at any of the rates at 10", and divide that by 1.5 (15"/10"), you'll end up with their 15" rate. Pick one of the stiffer bars to minimize the effect of rounding to the nearest whole number present in the table. Try comparing any other combination of arm lengths in similar fashion.

Given the usual clientele for 3-piece bars, I doubt that the tables were intended for any precise purposes. If you guessed or even calculated that you want 105 lbs at 13" for a 1" x 0.120" bar and it ended up being too soft, all you'd have to do is swap in 12" or maybe even 10" arms. Put the 13's away for when track conditions suggest that you need the softer bar.

No reason you couldn't dial in your street bar tune this same trial and error/test and tune way, or even use a different arm length for your autocross/track outings from what you use on the street. Even maintain separate wet vs dry competition arm lengths.


Norm

 

[cp85gt]

It seems that the 5 degree of rotation at 10" of length is about 20-25% less rotated distance than the in/lb rating method. That would not put either the 1" bar or 1-1/4" bar in a sweet spot for an adjustable rear bar that resembles what you can get from the currently available rear adjustable bars. I guess that would make sense because the rear Strano bar is 1" in diameter with a .156" wall and their biggest 1" hollow bar has a .120" wall and is not stiff enough at stock arm length. I can't really go shorter on the arm length because of the offset bends needed. I guess if I really wanted to do this if would have to source my own tube and have it splined.

 

[BMR Tech]

I am pretty sure Speedway is who we used to get our splined bars from for our old design Anti-Roll Bar.

I would love to offer something like this, but a little less rate for road racers. We already have some nice bolt-on brackets for the rear axle that we could integrate into a kit like this.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Gawd, that looks heavy!! Any way you could set up the kit to use the stock-style drop-links from the chassis to the splined bar? That would be F'n sweet if you had a cable-adjustable blade on one side as well...

 

[cp85gt]

With a 1" bar you could use the stock rear endlinks for the standard Boss 302 which are $15 each from Tousley. 2 bends in the sway bar arm for the offset, drill 3 holes, and use the same axle attachment brackets and bushings that all the adjustable rear sway bars use. You would have a lightweight rear sway bar, following the oem routing and attachment, with the additional tire clearance. Doing a one-off would be a lot more expensive, but if a vendor did a run of a hundred or so the cost might come down to a more realistic price point.