Whiteline Watts Link and Rear Sway Bar

[DRock]

Hey that's Kris's car!

 

[Sky Render]

I've got the Whiteline bars on my car now. Tested them out last Saturday at an autocross.

I fail to see how this is any more likely to contact the gas tank than the OEM bar. In fact, it seems less likely to me.

The gas tank is the black plastic thingie that straddles the driveshaft in front of the differential. It is NOT the emissions equipment underneath the spare tire well.

 

[Sam Strano]

Bearing in mind I carry Whiteline parts (including these bars), I really don't get why you guys are all goo-goo over this. Any bar that bolts to the axle adds unsprung weight. This bar does that. It's also quite heavy being a solid 27mm unit, so it's adding a good bit of weight too. Remember that stock bars (which are solid but also lighter) and bars like what I designed and use bolt to the body, where the weight is not unsprung. And then there is the size. 27mm is pretty big, but it's not as overly stiff as it sounds here..... BECAUSE of the way this bar mounts. There is more leverage on it than on a bar that mounts in the stock/Stranoparts way. So they have to make the bar heavier to balance that greater leverage.

Having said that, I really don't get why they opted for on a 33mm front either, but that's less of an issue. I think they wanted to just be different, and/or save on hardware costs because this style needs no specific axle mount brackets to mount it.

 

[Sky Render]

I disagree about the sprung versus unsprung weight, as part of the stock swaybar must necessarily mount to the axle, which means that part of it is indeed unsprung weight. Although the Whiteline bar is solid, it is somewhat shorter than the OEM bar, which makes it end up weighing about the same. I've always heard the argument that swaybars are half sprung and half unsprung, since they connect to both the axles and the chassis.

Additionally, the Whiteline unit is the only one I've seen that allows you to adjust preload on the rear bar. There is simply no way to do this on rear bars that use the OEM design. Obviously this is only an issue for those who corner-balance their cars, however.

Another advantage is that the endlinks connect at the rear of the vehicle. It is thus possible to adjust rear swaybar stiffness without even lifting the vehicle up in the air.

 

[kevinatfms]

there are rear bars that can have preload adjustment with the stock mounting points. i believe they use an eyebolt at each end of the axle while the ends of the bar itself use the blade type design. so it can be adjustable and still keep the same leverage as the original bar thus reducing its size.

im not sure about stranoparts bar but it seems this may be the style(blade type) he is referring to.

as for sprung or unsprung, you are correct to assume that bars share the majority of the weight associated, but due to the fact that the bar mounts are directly at the axle on the uncut side of the bar i would suspect you have added more weight on the unsprung side. i wasnt on the suspension side of things during my time at FMC.

i do like the fact that preload is adjustable with the wheels on and the car at ground level. the axle brackets scare me though, any chance for slipping? i guess ill see tomorrow when we install the LCA's/UCA and brackets.

oh and FWIW, i run the NON adjustable rear FRPP bar and front adjustable bar made by eibach. so im a bit non biased at the moment.

 

[B2B]

Sam,

My guess is that folks looking to put monster rear tires (285+) on their car would be going with the Whiteline rear sway bar for tire clearance.

Francis

 

[a50cobra]

Sam,

My guess is that folks looking to put monster rear tires (285+) on their car would be going with the Whiteline rear sway bar for tire clearance.

Francis

Sam ran 315s with his bars with no issues, as do others. I run 285s on stock bars with no issues. Just throwing another $0.02 into the pot.

 

[Sky Render]

there are rear bars that can have preload adjustment with the stock mounting points. i believe they use an eyebolt at each end of the axle while the ends of the bar itself use the blade type design. so it can be adjustable and still keep the same leverage as the original bar thus reducing its size.

im not sure about stranoparts bar but it seems this may be the style(blade type) he is referring to.

as for sprung or unsprung, you are correct to assume that bars share the majority of the weight associated, but due to the fact that the bar mounts are directly at the axle on the uncut side of the bar i would suspect you have added more weight on the unsprung side. i wasnt on the suspension side of things during my time at FMC.

i do like the fact that preload is adjustable with the wheels on and the car at ground level. the axle brackets scare me though, any chance for slipping? i guess ill see tomorrow when we install the LCA's/UCA and brackets.

oh and FWIW, i run the NON adjustable rear FRPP bar and front adjustable bar made by eibach. so im a bit non biased at the moment.

I don't think there's much chance of them slipping on the axle if they're torqued properly. It's a very similar mount to how leaf springs are attached to live rear axles.

I autocrossed those things HARD last weekend, and they haven't slipped at all.

 

[zquez]

Sam ran 315s with his bars with no issues, as do others. I run 285s on stock bars with no issues. Just throwing another $0.02 into the pot.

I run 305s....

 

[Red_Devil]

We haven't had any reported issues of bar slippage. Size is a poor judge of bar effectiveness, it doesn't factor spring rate of the steel. Our bar is made from the highest quality spring steel and can be a more effective bar at a smaller diameter.

 

[Sam Strano]

I need to preface this with a few things.

1. I do indeed sell Whiteline parts.

2. I have *some* Whiteline parts on one of my cars. My Scion FR-S. Some of the Mustang parts I think are fine, but nothing earth shattering. Some I think are just trying too hard to be different.

3. Whiteline has some parts I'm interested enough in that I even did a dealer app to buy direct vs. from my current WD supplier. But that was months ago and I've never been contacted back, which upsets me a little bit.

However, it doesn't change the way I work. I use what I think is best for the situation. I do not pander to any one company. And frankly when I think I can do better, I will. That's how I got to making sway bars for the Mustang. I made very few of my own parts.

Anyway, I guess what Jared is saying is that because they claim to use super whiz bang spring steel (which is assuming that others like myself use, I dunno water pipe or something) that they need not go bigger than a 33mm bar. Meanwhile the rear bar is pretty massive, and I assume made from the same steel. It has to be bigger because of extra leverage acting upon it. But then that should be balanced by the magic steel.

I don't want solid bar. It's weight that is useless. The diameter of a bar is a HUGE factor in it's stiffness. Being a torsion bar diameter to the 4th applies. Every millimeter you move from the middle has an exponential change on the rate. The very center of the bar does the least amount of work, the OD the most.

My bars are made not in my basement by a guy with a bender and some steel, but by a name-brand, well known, sway bar company to my specification. This is not crappy steel, and in fact every batch of steel is tested when it comes in. A batch of steel failed last year, and we kicked it back.

My stuff is proven, it wins. It's been developed in public (come to any autocross or my shop and see if for yourself). I realize that others are using things on their cars, but the results aren't there, they just aren't there.

What I guess really kills me is that someone who autocrosses their car (specifically) would choose to go an unknown route, and one that I think has flaws, over a very well proven setup in the actual discipline, saves weight, and costs less too.

I really wonder what a guy has to do sometimes. I guess instead of trying to develop things thoughtfully, win events, and spend time on the phone with customers I should become a blogger. This is an internet world, and frankly while that's good, it's very bad... because folks are far too eager to believe what they read, and some folks are very good writers. I'd say 80-90% of the calls I take I end up debunking something someone "read on the forums".

 

[modernbeat]

The geometry of the Whiteline rear swaybar is very different than the stock, or stock-like aftermarket bar. Therefore comparing the diameter of the bar to a stock configuration bar is not a good measure of it's performance.

We also use the bar and compete with it. We accept the weight gain (a small percentage of the unsprung weight of the rear axle) as a tradeoff to gain more tire clearance. Others may run a 315 tire in the rear with a stock bar, but is there tire under the fender? Or does it stick out? Ours is completely underneath an unmolested fender thanks to the Whiteline sway bar.

 

[jymontoya]

Just a couple thoughts...

Unless you're actually RACING for tenths of seconds, at the top of competition, the whole weight argument is moot. There's easier time to be saved elsewhere, than to worry about a couple pounds here and there on a car that is already 3400+lbs. There's a nut behind the wheel you may need to tighten...

I don't have either of these items that the OP was referring to, but I DO have the Whiteline adj. Front Sway Bar. I bought it seeking to fine tune IN a tiny bit of push. It just suits my driving style and setup, better ATM to be able to use the throttle to help rotate the car. I had been running without a rear sway bar, but put it back on when I got the Watts link installed, and after adjusting my rear roll center, decided I was just getting too much roll up front. I went with the Whiteline front bar for several reasons. Having cracked a hollow bar on the track, I wanted something SOLID that offered a 'stock' position, as well as 3 or more fine tuning adjustments. The Whiteline, being SOLID, but also smaller than stock diameter, accomplished this. It also helped my decision that it CAME with adjustable endlinks included for $239 shipped.

The stock rear bar is plenty for me with the Watts now, though I'd love a way to adjust preload balance on the stock rear bar, but I've not seen anything yet to accomplish that.

 

[Sky Render]

My stuff is proven, it wins. It's been developed in public (come to any autocross or my shop and see if for yourself). I realize that others are using things on their cars, but the results aren't there, they just aren't there.

Wow, really?

Tell that to Vorshlag, who runs Whiteline bars (front and rear), a Whiteline Watts link, and took first place at Time Attack Texas, and was also, by the way, the only non-AWD car to break into the 40s.

 

[modernbeat]

...It also helped my decision that it CAME with adjustable endlinks included for $239 shipped.

Those endlinks are nice, aren't they.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Additionally, the Whiteline unit is the only one I've seen that allows you to adjust preload on the rear bar. There is simply no way to do this on rear bars that use the OEM design. Obviously this is only an issue for those who corner-balance their cars, however.

, though I'd love a way to adjust preload balance on the stock rear bar, but I've not seen anything yet to accomplish that.

Seems like it'd be easy enough to do. Probably tougher to sell enough kits to make the effort worthwhile from a business standpoint, though.


Norm

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Wow, really?

Tell that to Vorshlag, who runs Whiteline bars (front and rear), a Whiteline Watts link, and took first place at Time Attack Texas, and was also, by the way, the only non-AWD car to break into the 40s.

I think the Vorshlag guys would agree that a win at the Solo Nationals is harder / more prestigious than a win at a local time trial. Not that that has anything to do with the product at hand - There are valid arguments for both styles IMO. Just different ways to skin the cat. I'll likely skin it in a way that is different than either of those.

 

[BMR Tech]

Here is a design we had back in 2004, for the 2005+ Mustangs.

Needless to say, we went away from this design for several reasons.

We are a fan of this axle mounted design for various uses, including drag racing.

I am sure the Whiteline piece performs, but trying to be different as Mr. Strano says, on the rear, doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Sky Render]

I think the Vorshlag guys would agree that a win at the Solo Nationals is harder / more prestigious than a win at a local time trial. Not that that has anything to do with the product at hand - There are valid arguments for both styles IMO. Just different ways to skin the cat. I'll likely skin it in a way that is different than either of those.

Well, I'd hardly call Global Time Attack a local event. But Terry Fair also placed pretty highly in ESP at Solo Nationals this year, as well. His car, by the way, still has a full interior, AC, and is daily driven.

 

[kevinatfms]

the big gripe with the whiteline rear sway is def the axle brackets and design of the bar. while the endlinks look great(huge highlight of the bar), the brackets that mount to the axle housing are "cheap". i dont know if u bolts are the only way to mount the bar to the axle housing but i wouldnt use that as my mounting technique. welding the lower bracket to the housing could offer a better solid solution over the u bolts and use a set of bolts to secure the bar to the bracket on the housing. if one of the u bolts were to break it could cause some serious body damage if the bar were to go swinging.

as for the shape of the bar? we had some fitting issues once the rear was squared up and had to re-adjust the bar to get it to not hit the axle housing. something that could have been remedied with a simple reshape of the bar itself.

one other thing noted-space to set jack stands on the rear end while keeping the chassis under load(jack stands under axle instead of body). once the bar is mounted you really have no room to jack the car up. so tightening every bolt under load becomes very tedious(skyrender can attest to this).

rear bar worth it over another brand? maybe, but for the more serious competition racers over the occasional HPDE/TT event consumer.