Stock swapped engine runs like garbage. HELP

Discussion in '2005+ Mustang GT 4.6L Tech' started by slackinoff, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. slackinoff

    slackinoff Senior Member S197 Team Member

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    *Title change

    Would my ECU need tuning by putting a 2010 3v into my 2008 Bullitt?

    DETAILS BELOW

    I just finished replacing the engine in my 08 Bullitt....swapped it with a 2010 low miles. Starts up fine but runs rough....sounds like a cammed car at idle.

    Here are the facts:

    2010 engine in 2008 bullitt - stock engine besides deleted charge motion plates and catless x pipe.

    There are no codes besides the after cat o2 sensors, which are unplugged.

    The engine runs rough, like it's cammed. It lopes at idle. It's extremely rich smelling. Driving it feels like it's down at least a cylinder. The misfires don't seem like a dead hole, but misfires across all the cylinders.

    As far as I know the injectors are the same, the 08's were black, these 2010's are pink. The research I did said they are the same, please let me know otherwise.

    I listened with a stethoscope to the injectors, they are all firing.

    I am at a loss on what to do. Please help!
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  2. slackinoff

    slackinoff Senior Member S197 Team Member

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    I cleared the codes, and ran it up to temp. Now there are no codes but it still lopes like it has a cam. I think the prior codes in my above post is from me unplugging the coils while the car was running to see if I could find a bad coil.

    IDK what to do, please help! I just changed the plugs for good measure. Didn't help. My next thought is to get a stethoscope and see if an injector is stuck. It lopes really bad and is very gassing smelling exhaust.
     
  3. Midlife Crises

    Midlife Crises Member

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    The intake manifold and charge motion valves are different on the 2010 than the previous years. I’m sure the OEM tune is different also. 2010 offered something like 5 more HP and torque over 09 and earlier.
     
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  4. slackinoff

    slackinoff Senior Member S197 Team Member

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    I swapped over my charge motion deleted intake onto this motor.
     
  5. slackinoff

    slackinoff Senior Member S197 Team Member

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    Got the stethoscope - injectors are clicking along just fine.

    I am running out of ideas guys. This sucks, depressing really.
     
  6. 01yellerCobra

    01yellerCobra forum member

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    Did you check the timing stuff before dropping it in? Hopefully a phaser didn't die on you.
     
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  7. slackinoff

    slackinoff Senior Member S197 Team Member

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    Thanks for the reply!
    Nope. Engine was pulled from a running GT. Do you think a dead phaser would throw a specific code? I edited my original post and title. Do you think there is a slight difference with the phasers or cams on the 2010 engine that my 2008 computer needs to be tuned for? I thought these engines were identical but I could be wrong.
     
  8. Midlife Crises

    Midlife Crises Member

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    Couple of questions for you. Which intake manifold are you running ? The 08 or the 10. They are not the same. Another thing is it is easy to mix up and cross connect the o2 sensor wires right for left.
     
  9. slackinoff

    slackinoff Senior Member S197 Team Member

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    Thank you for the reply! Seriously at my wits end with this.

    I am running the 08 intake since it has the deleted motion plates. The only difference I saw on the 10 intake was that the charge plates are integrated and I needed to use my slightly longer 2008 intake bolts on the 08 intake. The rear o2 sensors are not connected. I am running a catless x pipe. I don't think I mixed up the upstream o2 sensors.....I remember the wiring harness for those it would impossible to mix up??? Right? Since one is on the manifold and on the other side it's actually further down stream, on the down pipe.

    My next idea is to unplug the VCT solenoids, see what that does. Also I found I can do a test on them where you can back probe to ground intermittently the violet/blue wire on VCT solenoid (drivers side) and the same on the darkgree/orange on the passenger.

    This is from JeremyH

    Here's tony's post deon another thread:

    In your case I have a feeling the VCT solenoid took a crap. I would try replacing it and see if it fixes it. Pretty easy to do. All you have to do is take the valve cover off and remove the small bolt holding the solenoids in.

    If you want to test the solenoid, run engine at hot idle. When the engine is running like crap, backprobe a ground wire into the variable camshaft solenoids (located at the top of each valve cover) at the following wires one at a time. Only tap the ground to the wire briefly though as holding it there to long can burn it up.

    - Driver's side, Violet and Light Blue wire.

    - Passenger side, Dark Green and Orange wire.

    If tapping a ground to either solenoid changes it, the solenoid was stuck open. Either because of debris stuck in the solenoid or because the solenoid itself was stuck/bad.

    Also try disconnecting the cam sensors while running and see if there is any changes.
     
  10. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    Hi slackinoff,

    Concerning the misfires, are you coming to this info from looking at the misfire monitor info thru a scan tool, or is this info from another method? I'm asking since you specifically typed that you have misfires across all cylinders & the only way I know this can be said & the engine is still running is that this info came off a scan tool looking at the PCM's Mode 6 Misfire Monitor info from each individual cylinder...……….
    I would need to know the answer before I go any further as what I'll need to type to try to help you in this regard is gonna be a lot of stuff & most of it will be technical.

    Concerning the injectors, the black ones & the purple ones are the same rated poundage...24lbs\hr. The black ones are MotorCraft M-9593-LU24 injectors, the purple ones are Ford Racing M-9593-LU24A injectors. The only physical difference between these 2 injectors outside of the coloring are the spray nozzle port patterns, the blacks have a 4-port nozzle spray pattern, the purples have a 6-port nozzle spray pattern which means that even though they both are 24lbs\hr rated, the purples will deliver a better spray pattern vs the blacks (to improve fuel atomization) & due to the 6-port nozzle pattern their calibration data is slightly different between the 2 as the purples will deliver slightly more fuel flow than the blacks at the same duty cycle % & same fuel rail pressures so since you're using these purple injectors w\ a tune using the black injector's calibration data they could be injecting slightly more fuel at low RPM's while in OL causing overly rich conditions (and potential fake misfires as the misfire monitor will be running during a cold start if the min ECT misfire enable temp is still set at the OEM setting of 20*F....) & than the PCM can adapt for once in CL, so to test this swap out these purple injectors w\ the black ones from your old engine then restart to see if this has any bearing on how the engine is running if you haven't had the tune swapped out yet......you did type that you're running very rich, yes? If this engine does have aftermarket cams installed this will make it worse w\o a tune correction...…… PS...also perform a leak test on these injectors to see if any are leaking thru the nozzles: pull them out of the manifold but keep them connected to the fuel line then KOEO car to start fuel pump to pressure up the rails to observe the nozzle ends. Replace any found leaking...

    And once again I will suggest that you get the whole induction side & exhaust side smoke tested to ensure that there are no leaks that will allow unmetered air in after the MAF, especially if there is a leak in the exhaust side upstream of 1 or both of the front O2 sensors (this will fool the PCM into adding more fuel thinking the AFR is lean when in fact you're getting richer as the unmetered air is entering the exhaust side, not in the induction side).
    Now since you have a scan tool you can test for this:
    1.) When engine is fully cold, hook up your scan tool w\ KOEO, set it up to view live data using a custom data set then set up the following PID's to view. If the tool can record all this then that's better as you can play the data back for analysis. Caution, most general OBDII scan tools have very limited storage mem onboard so may have to make more than 1 recording, unless you know someone who has a better tool w\ more mem:
    FUELSYS1--(open\closed loop status....helps signal when O2 sensors have come online)
    ECT-(engine coolant temp....pay attention to this in relation to other stuff coming later. If can get access to a better scan tool that can do KOEO self checks this sensor is checked for any bias offset from initial PCM calibration to see if it is reporting correctly back to PCM...a LOT of stuff depends on this sensor to be accurate so keep this in mind)
    B1 STFT %--(pay attention to what these are reporting in relation to the B1 LTFT% as soon as they start reporting to determine if the cold start fueling is excessively rich or excessively lean, also can alert you to a possible unmetered air leak in either intake or exhaust side)
    B1 LTFT %--(if tune is set up correct, this should be at\around 0%--stoich--right off the bat as during OL no O2 sensors are reporting & tune is\should be using OL base cold fuel map which PCM uses the LOAD% & ECT to determine how much extra fuel enrichment from 0% to use during cold starts then will blend it back down towards 0% as engine warms up. Then after PCM goes into CL then they will adjust according to the STFT % amount they stay off 0% to drive the STFT% back to switching across 0%)
    B2 STFT %--(same as B1 STFT%)
    B2 LTFT %--(same as B1 LTFT%)
    RPM's--(to know where in rotational speed stuff that you can see is occurring)
    MAF g\s--(see the actual air weight calculations of air being measured as PCM will make fuel corrections to the OL fueling once it starts getting actual air calcs so need to see if this is working...1st thing check to see if the reading is at 0.00 w\ KOEO...if it is not at 0.00 you've found your 1st issue to address)
    IAT--(gives the intake air temp once air actually starts flowing thru MAF sensor which PCM will use to start making fueling corrections during OL in both actual flowing air temp AND inferred AAT. Check this also at KOEO...should be reading the actual AAT at the sensor, check accuracy w\ a mechanical temp gauge reading same air)
    B1S1O2SV--(see actual O2 sensor output to PCM in millivolts....helps when checking PCM OBDII O2 sensor test results in Mode 6 data)
    B2S1O2SV--(same as for B1S1O2SV)
    Note: We only care about these 2 O2 sensors at this time as these are for engine fuel control so disregard the rear O2 sensors if they're still being used.
    EVAP PCT %--(signal that PCM is signaling to CPV to open...to ensure that PCM is not signaling CPV to open, should be at 0%. I know you have disconnected the EVAP system on your car, info is for others who might be reading this)
    EVAP_VP--(reading from EVAP vacuum\pressure sensor in "H2O...should also be at 0.00" H2O or any positive "H2O number during startup...should NOT be showing a negative "H2O number w\ the EVAP PCT % reading at 0%...if it is then the CPV valve is bad & is a vacuum leak as the EVAP CVS is normally open. I know you have disconnected the EVAP system on your car, info is for others who might be reading this)

    The reason why to set up a small, focused list of PID's to use here is to help the scan tool to cycle as fast as it can by not having it waste time going thru other PIDs that aren't needed as you can actually miss some important event changes on the PIDs that you want to read waiting on the scan tool to cycle thru too many PIDs that aren't important to get back to the important ones.

    Once this is set up, get the tool running & checking\recording BEFORE actual engine startup to record it all then record thru a full cold start to a full hot idle observing these PIDs....they will give you a lot of info in real time as to what is actually going on & where to start looking.

    Then there are some more checks using the results of this data in concert w\ the Mode 6 data then some more tests to record from resetting of the KAM mem after recording the Mode 6 data prior (KAM resets all Mode 6 test results data so PCM starts over from clean slate). This is important when testing the Misfire Monitor results for accuracy (showing real or fake misfires....yes this data can be off).

    There is a LOT more to look at\TS from here...I warned you that I would be typing a lot of stuff...……..

    PS---Also any data that you can capture from this can help any tuner to tune the car better for cold starts as well as other issues as this will be data that they didn't have to gather (some will use it, some will not so keep this in mind as well). FYI...………..
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
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  11. slackinoff

    slackinoff Senior Member S197 Team Member

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    Thanks for the reply, I got hooked back up with my old tuner VMP, and they helped me get the car sorted out. First problem was I had the forward o2 sensors swapped from bank to bank. Then we did something like 5 tunes and datalog email via email sessions to get the car running well. We never did find out what those mystery cams were....but they are choppy none the less. Car is running great now. Tuner told me that actually the car was running very lean at idle.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
     
  12. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    Good deal!

    Glad you got all sorted out.

    The fact that your tuner informed you of an existing lean condition prior tuning is why I was suggesting that you get your setup smoked tested before you did get tuned to ensure that you had all external vacuum leaks verified fixed as if you got tuned before all was verified fixed then any corrections made in the tune will also be making corrections for any unknown existing conditions that can affect the tune unknowingly down the road if they get worse or if you happen to find\fix them later. Any issue will show up mainly during part throttle\WOT operation as the PCM will not be in adaptive fueling state (closed loop...PCM can adapt fueling to these type of conditions so can mask them to a certain degree) but in fixed fueling state (open loop....fueling is fixed according to the set parameters in the OL base fuel map as set up by tuner to match the MAF w\ any unknown unmetered air entry at the time of tuning, PCM will not make any fuel corrections afterwards for AFR, only will pull spark timing on any detonation detected & increase fueling to cool any detected cat overheat conditions if COT protection is still enabled in tune) so the AFR's can be thrown off in the tune under load & potentially cause issues, but since the car was tuned before all this was verified to ensure tune fidelity, if something does happen most immediately think the issue is totally due to the tune alone due to assumption that all else was fine cause the car ran fine initially after tuning so don't consider what I'm typing about here.

    The fact of a used engine being installed in a used vehicle where used parts are also being swapped\exchanged & the used vehicle is using a computer-controlled system that gives initial feedback to an issue only thru a MIL raises this potential as it doesn't take a large unknown leak when under a WOT load to destroy an engine.

    Cams are not as big an issue as the cam lobe profile don't generally change so once tuned around they're usually accounted for...…….

    I don't want anybody to go thru something only to find out that it was all caused because they assumed something to be good instead of verifying it to be good before spending more money.....been there, done that myself in times past so I will still suggest to get your car smoke tested ASAP to get verification even though all is fine at this time.

    Don't mean to come off sounding like a nanny.............

    Have fun & keep her between the ditches!
     
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