Machine shop vs. crate shortblock

For <650whp, you can get Boss Coyote rods for less than $250, and any off the shelf brand forged pistons from Modular Headshop will fit the bill. I understand this is not a "kit" but it's cost effective and will stand up to the beating.


Did the builder give you a quote for this type of job? I'm in the same boat myself and figure this is a cheaper route than buying a new shortblock, given that the machine work/labor doesn't cost $2k+.

See if the boss 302 rods are still kicking, they used to be stupid cheap. I'm using them and Manley pistons and rings, stock CR.

If I were going to do a 3V build, I'd get the big bore short block from Ford Racing.

Click to expand...

I recently did a build, but I went local builder since I had parts (rods, cams, stroker crank) to incorporate into the build. If all you have is the blower, do the 5.3 FRPP and save yourself a few months.

inglimer said:

Will probably go with the machine shop build. This guy Don Burlington in Liberty Mo. has not only a long successful record as an engine builder, he has also built a number of 4.6 3 valve motors.
It appears that unless you are going 5k + the crate motors can be problematic. The MMR engines as an example.
Sorry for parking this in the wrong place, new guy and all that.

Click to expand...

Any updates on this? I'm trying to gather info before I pull any triggers.
What all is done at the machine shop?

Is it typical to have the block/heads decked for a proper seal, along with sleeve work, and line boring? I assume this varies depending on how warped the stock parts are.

46addict said:

Any updates on this? I'm trying to gather info before I pull any triggers.
What all is done at the machine shop?

Is it typical to have the block/heads decked for a proper seal, along with sleeve work, and line boring? I assume this varies depending on how warped the stock parts are.

Click to expand...

Not really. You can check yourself with a machinists straight edge and feeler gauges. I've had the line bore checked on a used block but it was still good. Modern machined new blocks are good from the factory.

The only time I've needed a block decked was the Big Bore. It comes without a finished deck. However, I've always used factory tty hardware. If the block or heads have had studs there is a real possibility that warpage has occured.

BTW if you have a shop deck the block and heads make sure they can hold the RA required for mls head gaskets. They all say they can but not many even have the proper tool to measure it.

In a nutshell make sure the machine shop has experience (good experience) with modern motors. It doesn't matter if they mostly work on LS motors, just as long as they have positive experience with modern motors.

Ask around at a Mustang gathering or dyno day. You will quickly find out who has constant problems and who (shop) is capable of machining parts that work for daily drivers and serious power/racing.

Once again, modern motors. The race shop that all the sbc guys go to probably is going to machine your block to the same tolerances as they would a sbc because that's what works for them. At the same time they will tell you that the Ford specs are crazy tight and Ford just doesn't know how to engineer a motor. This is the kind of shop to stay away from imo.

Where are you? I can build your motor if you're close enough to 77835

RocketcarX said:

Where are you? I can build you're motor if you're close enough to 77835

Click to expand...

This is the best answer. If you have someone nearby who is willing to help you spec clearances, find a good machine shop, and show how to assemble the parts you will be far ahead of having a shop do all of the work.

It's not that complicated to assemble a motor but a little guidance helps the first time.

Thanks for the insight. I'm going to pick up a book or two on Mod motor building and do the assembly myself. I was worried about how much machining could be required but it sounds like it won't be a huge deal.

Department Of Boost said:

Read this:

http://departmentofboost.com/tech/boosting_3v.htm

At the HP you're looking for I say engine builder and re-use the stock crank. Less money than a built shortblock for sure.

Click to expand...

That's one hell of a write up.

46addict said:

Thanks for the insight. I'm going to pick up a book or two on Mod motor building and do the assembly myself. I was worried about how much machining could be required but it sounds like it won't be a huge deal.

Rocketcar I'm not sure if you were talking to me but I'm too far from Texas. I am north of Atlanta, GA. I do appreciate the offer though.

Click to expand...

The machine work isn't much, but as Bruce said, ensure the shop knows how to machine a Ford Mod Motor.

This is what it cost me to fix a 3v WAP block [going into a 280z project car] that had been hacked on, the deck looked like it had been finished by using an orbital sander and the main caps were also hosed requiring a line bore.

Measure and Inspect Block-Bore Size, Main Bore Size, Deck Height .. $175
Align Hone 4 bolt block/ Check Bearing Clearances ........................ $300

Cylinder Boring, 030" ..... $250
Cylinder Hone ... .......... $200
Deck Block .................. $225
Clean Block ................. $85


Total .........................$1235



Machine work not directly related to block ..


Balance assembly/Add Metal ......... $250
File Fit Piston Rings ..................... $170
Re-size Rod for new rod bolts .......... $80


As Bruce said you probably don't need the line bore or deck machined so depending on whether you need a simple cylinder honing or an overbore/hone you'll save a few hundred bucks.


Filing the piston rings isn't hard, but it's a PITA so I had the shop do it, they also installed the crank bearings and set the runout as part of the line bore.





.

drive_55_not said:

The machine work isn't much, but as Bruce said, ensure the shop knows how to machine a Ford Mod Motor.

This is what it cost me to fix a 3v WAP block [going into a 280z project car] that had been hacked on, the deck looked like it had been finished by using an orbital sander and the main caps were also hosed requiring a line bore.

Measure and Inspect Block-Bore Size, Main Bore Size, Deck Height .. $175
Align Hone 4 bolt block/ Check Bearing Clearances ........................ $300

Cylinder Boring, 030" ..... $250
Cylinder Hone ... .......... $200
Deck Block .................. $225
Clean Block ................. $85


Total .........................$1235



Machine work not directly related to block ..


Balance assembly/Add Metal ......... $250
File Fit Piston Rings ..................... $170
Re-size Rod for new rod bolts .......... $80


As Bruce said you probably don't need the line bore or deck machined so depending on whether you need a simple cylinder honing or an overbore/hone you'll save a few hundred bucks.


Filing the piston rings isn't hard, but it's a PITA so I had the shop do it, they also installed the crank bearings and set the runout as part of the line bore.





.

Click to expand...

$1235 for nothing but machine work on a short block is a little high...this isn't an aluminum rod 632, lol.

$1235 for nothing but machine work on a short block is a little high

Click to expand...

Actually, I find it to be reasonable. Maybe I'm just trying to justify my own expenses, but I paid a good deal more to get my BOSS50 decked, prepped, and balanced for my engine. I don't hesitate to turn 7K in it even with a stroker crank. It's worth paying the best to get the best.

Having my block bored, honed, cleaned, rotating assembly balanced and installed was around 1200, and we figure that was a pretty decent price

Wes06 said:

Having my block bored, honed, cleaned, rotating assembly balanced and installed was around 1200, and we figure that was a pretty decent price

Click to expand...

"installed" is the key word for your $1200 short block, not to mention the balancing. Remove balancing and assembly and you see how cheap it should be.

ah yea those prices are without shortblock assembly

hmm, i wanna say assembly was about 250 ish? not 100%

$1200 is definitely high for machine work only. Had mine machined and assembled for almost that price.

Prices are what they are.

$1200 for a block deck, balance, hone, bearings sized to the crank at customer spec, ring gap, rod reconditioning, and cleaning isn't bad imo. Provided the shop does good work.

The last thing you (me actually) want to do is price shop the machining on your blood, sweat, and tears motor. The first thing to do is find a machine shop that can do the work correctly. Even the hone can make a big difference in how your motor runs, reacts to boost, and uses oil.

I'm of the opinion that quality usually will cost a little more. A shop that's taking the time to measure clearances while reconditioning rods and polishing the crank is going to cost more because it takes skill and it takes time.

BruceH said:

Prices are what they are.

$1200 for a block deck, balance, hone, bearings sized to the crank at customer spec, ring gap, rod reconditioning, and cleaning isn't bad imo. Provided the shop does good work.

The last thing you (me actually) want to do is price shop the machining on your blood, sweat, and tears motor. The first thing to do is find a machine shop that can do the work correctly. Even the hone can make a big difference in how your motor runs, reacts to boost, and uses oil.

I'm of the opinion that quality usually will cost a little more. A shop that's taking the time to measure clearances while reconditioning rods and polishing the crank is going to cost more because it takes skill and it takes time.

Click to expand...

I agree with you 100%, you def know how to build an engine, sir.
I'm not sure where the OP checks in at on the racecar scale but line boring mains (especially if there was no prior crank damage) and file fit rings are not needed on the majority of builds out there. Those two things alone add a lot to his cost, I certainly believe ou get what you pay for though.

RocketcarX said:

I agree with you 100%, you def know how to build an engine, sir.
I'm not sure where the OP checks in at on the racecar scale but line boring mains (especially if there was no prior crank damage) and file fit rings are not needed on the majority of builds out there. Those two things alone add a lot to his cost, I certainly believe ou get what you pay for though.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the confidence but I'm just a guy sharing my experience and thoughts. With that experience comes opinions. We all have opinions. And we all have experiences, good and bad.

I'm lucky enough to know a few other gearheads who use a variety of shops. Some have motors that always work and some don't. I try to figure out the similarities and differences and go with what I think will work best for me.

In the end I'm convinced that for my uses of daily driver/cruiser/sometimes track rat/dyno queen I can't go wrong with Ford specs. The GT500 and Terminator have a fantastic success with large street power levels so I keep the Ford tolerances and replace the parts that usually fail. The machine shop I use holds those tolerances at my request.

So far so good.

If I was building an all out race motor I would leave the entire process to a reputable shop that specialized in race motors.

$1200+ may seem high but like we discussed before, not every block is going to require decking and some may choose not to overbore. So if I go a-la-carte I could pay just half of that for honing, cleaning, and balancing which is easier to swallow.