Ah, the benefits of seat time and targeted practice...

kcbrown

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It's been some time since I've written at length here. In the interim, I've gone to several track events and another Evolution driving school. I've now got some 15 days of track time under my belt, including some wet laps.

During one of those events at Laguna Seca, I managed to spin the car twice. Both were on a track that was mostly dry, but in the last stages of drying, so it's likely the lower edges were at least somewhat damp. The first time was clearly my own doing: I trail braked into turn 10 a bit too much and the rear came around on me. The second has what remains an unknown cause, as I was at neutral throttle going through turn 5 and the car swapped ends mid-corner. Both times, the rotation rate was relatively slow. Both times, I didn't really feel much, or at least didn't notice it.

This prompted me to really learn how the car feels when the rear end is coming unglued, and to train some (at least somewhat) automatic and correct reactions to the rear end coming out. So I did three things:


  1. I took advantage of Hooked On Driving's "car control clinic", which is basically an area they set aside for the purpose and in which they build a figure 8. This is actually great fun to drive on, and I eventually got to the point where I can "drift" the car a little. I need more work on that to get to the point where I could really drift it consistently. I'd make the rear come out with the throttle, then attempt to correct the end result with some combination of the throttle and the steering wheel. I varied the amount of throttle correction used in order to work the steering wheel in varying amounts.
  2. I found the most tail-happy car in my "simulator" (i.e., Gran Turismo 6) and drive it consistently. Being that tail-happy means that just going around a corner normally is sufficient to bring the rear around -- you have to countersteer just to make the car go around a corner at speed.
  3. I practiced controlling oversteer at the Evolution Driving school when possible. In this case, that was done using my 300ZX Twin Turbo. More on that a little later.

Most people think that all you have to do to deal with oversteer is put in some countersteer and that's that. It's more complicated than that. It's not just that you have to put in some countersteer, it's also how much and how long. If you catch the rear coming out and countersteer early enough, the amount of time you'll need to keep it in is very small, enough that it just looks like a quick saw stroke of the wheel. If you catch it later, you'll need more and you'll have to hold it for longer, but the timing of bring it back in will be critical -- in particular, bring it in too late and the car will swap ends in the opposite direction. Bring it in too soon and you'll have to countersteer again. What I ended up learning was mainly that controlling the car involved some sawing of the wheel back and forth while you continuously pay attention to how the rear end is reacting to it all.

I got to practice this in abundance at the Evolution driving school. I took my 300ZX Twin Turbo to that, because I can't drive it on the track and I wanted to see how it behaves at the limit. I can't drive it on the track because I have to take the T tops off to fit with a helmet, and the top of my head sticks above the top of the car when I do that, so I wouldn't be allowed on the track even if the car would be able to avoid overheating on the track. And it's a 1992, so replacement parts are harder to find. The Mustang is just a better track car. In any case, the Z is more prone to oversteer than the Mustang is, but not by much. It's great fun, though, because you can induce oversteer almost at will by lifting the throttle, so that's exactly what I did throughout the two days of the driving school. The long sweepers were especially fun in that respect. But though it's fun to drive that car like that, believe it or not, the Mustang has considerably sharper reflexes with its stock suspension (and even more so with the Konis). That was especially evident in the slalom, where in the Z you have to put in your steering inputs ahead of time in order to nail the slalom, while the same isn't true (at least to a degree that I noticed) of the Mustang.

Of course, I started to use the same techniques in the figure 8 course with the Mustang, and that worked nicely.

All of this work paid quite handsomely. For instance, during one of the wet laps I did, the rear started to come around in turn 2 of Laguna. A very quick countersteer and return was enough to make that a non-event. But it proved especially useful during the last event. There, coming around turn 3, the tires were getting greasy and the rear once again started to come out. I ended up sawing my way all throughout the turn. My wife was watching from the paddock and she was able to see the rear end come out as that was happening, and said it looked like I was drifting, something that surprised me a bit since it didn't feel like it had come out that much. But in any event, it was entirely controllable because, finally, I knew how.


As part of this, I found that the car is more prone to oversteer to the right than to the left. Panhard bars for the win! I suspect the first modification I might make (because I can now notice the lean a bit) is to go to beefier sway bars, and the second I might make is to add a watts link. I like how the car behaves when steering to the right, and will want it to behave the same way to the left. Right now, it understeers more to the left. I like the neutrality, and the ability to induce oversteer just by lifting the throttle.

Oddly enough, with all that, I find myself almost automatically thinking about countersteering in a corner whenever I lift the throttle or hit the brakes. :biggrin:
 
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Rabee

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Thanks for the good insight!

Knowing you thus far and realizing how much you appreciate becoming a better driver, I am pretty sure you will fall in love with Ross Bentley's book ULTIMATE SPEED SECRETS!

I think going to a bigger rear anti-roll bar will only garantee less traction at the rear.
 

kcbrown

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Thanks for the good insight!

Knowing you thus far and realizing how much you appreciate becoming a better driver, I am pretty sure you will fall in love with Ross Bentley's book ULTIMATE SPEED SECRETS!

I think going to a bigger rear anti-roll bar will only garantee less traction at the rear.

Perhaps. It's not just the rear bar I'll be looking at changing, it's the front as well. The real question is how much additional bar you can put up front before it starts lifting the inside wheel off the ground. I'd want to keep the sway bar rate below that value.

I may end up going with the Watts link first, actually, because I'd like to equalize the understeer/oversteer characteristics of the car.

I'll probably get a few more events under my belt before making changes, if only to get to the point where I consistently notice what needs to change. As regards the lean of the car, it's only in the longer sweepers that I really notice it at the moment. Since controllability and behavioral consistency is probably more important than how much it leans, I'll probably put a Watts link on first.
 

csamsh

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I know this is against your policy....but a spherical bearing UCA, a real diff, and some real seats make controlling oversteer stupidly easy
 

kcbrown

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I know this is against your policy....but a spherical bearing UCA, a real diff,

A real diff? I have a Torsen in mine (it's the Track Package). Not sure if that qualifies, but I'd think it would. :)

What major benefits would a spherical bearing UCA bring?


and some real seats make controlling oversteer stupidly easy
The seats I have (the Recaros that were an option on these cars) hold me in quite well. I have a fairly large frame so I completely fill the space between the side bolsters. That probably results in the seat holding me in better than it would a lot of others.

They are light years ahead of other seats I've had in other cars, such as my 1992 Mustang GT.


I would be more inclined to switch seats if these didn't hold me in nicely. Between them and the CG-Lock, I've had no trouble with my body moving around. It's possible that different seats would work even better, but would probably demand a sacrifice in flexibility and/or comfort, and I'm not really willing to do that without a large payoff. Why? Because streetcar! :biggrin:
 

csamsh

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Spherical UCA- no wind up and snap of rubber bushing. Allows axle to articulate.

Seats- you wouldn't understand unless you tried it. Get a ride in a car with real seats and you'll see what I mean. The stock recaro is just yet another spring in the suspension- one more thing to reduce your feel of what the car is doing. When the thing you're sitting on is bolted to the car solidly, you feel everything that happens that much sooner. As far as car control goes, it's the single best mod you can make IMO. They're comfortable if you get ones that you fit in. Just like a helmet- try before you buy.
 

claudermilk

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Great post! In a nutshell: KC is climbing the learning curve and the driver mod is working.

It's kind of funny you post this now, as I just did a track day & ended up doing more countersteer work than before myself. I never looped the car, but it tried really hard once--got a mini-tank-slapper; otherwise I did some drifting/powersliding a few times.

Regarding the OEM Recaros & CG Lock, see my recent thread. Once you get to pushing the car hard enough things will change. I was saying the exact same as you up until last Sunday.
 

kcbrown

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And you're into the throttle when you notice this, right?

No, actually. It's primarily when I've lifted the throttle when I notice that. Anything else requires throttle control that's beyond the accuracy I'm capable of managing (which is to say, how can you tell that it's the car that's more prone to oversteer in one direction when you have some throttle in unless you have identical amounts of throttle in?).
 
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SlowJim

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Is your camber the same from side to side? I asked my alignment guy to max out negative camber and ended up with a fairly significant difference L to R, 2.1 vs 2.35. That along with a difference in caster or toe could affect L to R balance.
 

kcbrown

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Is your camber the same from side to side? I asked my alignment guy to max out negative camber and ended up with a fairly significant difference L to R, 2.1 vs 2.35. That along with a difference in caster or toe could affect L to R balance.

I thought of that. Yes, it's the same, at -1.8 degrees each side.

I thought the difference was the result of the roll center being different from one side to the other based on the amount of deflection of the panhard bar, which will change notably based on whether you're turning left or right. Is that not the case? I thought that was the advantage a watts link gave you: symmetry of handling.
 

Norm Peterson

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There are several asymmetries. Roll center height is one of them. Related to that is axle roll steer, which varies as the PHB's midpoint height and LCA inclinations change. There is also an asymmetric effect from driveline torque and its reaction at the engine mounts that should be mildly understeerish in left turns on-throttle and maybe minimally oversteerish in left turns off-throttle. The effects in right turns would be opposite-sense.

A Watts link gives you symmetrical rear axle geometry, which isn't necessarily the same thing as symmetrical handling . . . it is a very good step to take even though there chassis asymmetries that it cannot fix.


Norm
 
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kcbrown

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Regarding the OEM Recaros & CG Lock, see my recent thread. Once you get to pushing the car hard enough things will change. I was saying the exact same as you up until last Sunday.

Well, if you're having to exert effort to hold yourself in the seat, then it means that the seat isn't holding you in properly.

Under what conditions are the Recaros failing in that regard, and in what way?

My size is such that the seat is a "perfect fit", as in I don't move in the seat at all unless I lean forward or something (at which point I'm not really "in the seat" anymore). It could easily be that you're leaning forward while braking or something, and then turning before you're able to reposition yourself back in the seat. That hasn't been a problem for me because I always leave a lot of braking on the table intentionally, because I want plenty of reserve in the event I screw up. I'm driving on the track to have fun and to learn, not to set lap records or anything.

With the way the seat holds me in place, I suspect that if I needed better, I'd be able to get it by keeping the seats and getting harnesses (which would require a roll bar, of course).
 

SoundGuyDave

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Just a contrarian thought here... Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you ARE a "perfect fit" in the Recaros. Now, flash-forward to the point where you are consistently pulling 0.98+G on every corner... That's essentially your entire body weight putting load on the bolsters of both the seat base and the seat back. You may still be a "perfect fit," but that 180-220lbs (assumed) pushing you sideways in the seat WILL collapse those bolsters, allowing motion.

This is one of those "you need to experience it to believe it" deals. Go find an instructor at an event with a race seat on the right side that really fits you, and see if your Recaros don't suddenly feel awfully sloppy... ;-) Race seat bolsters are not only an order of magnitude larger than those on any street seat, they're also stiffer. In my car (Sparco Circuit seat), you simply do NOT move, no matter what foolishness you're pulling inside the car. 1.4G cornering? No sweat, you ain't moving!

Disclaimers: I'm in no way suggesting that the Recaros aren't an improvement over a base, leather seat engineered for hippopotomi. I'm also not suggesting that to have fun on track with your car, that you NEED to have a cage, containment seat, 6-point harnesses, HANS, etc. I'm really only trying to get you (and others lurking) to really think about what's happening out there.
 

kcbrown

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Really glad to see you're back! Was wondering where you'd gone off to. :)

Just a contrarian thought here... Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you ARE a "perfect fit" in the Recaros. Now, flash-forward to the point where you are consistently pulling 0.98+G on every corner... That's essentially your entire body weight putting load on the bolsters of both the seat base and the seat back. You may still be a "perfect fit," but that 180-220lbs (assumed) pushing you sideways in the seat WILL collapse those bolsters, allowing motion.

Well, my body is somewhat squishy too, so there's some compression there as well. Even so, this is an interesting and valid point, and gets even more valid as the g-forces go up.


This is one of those "you need to experience it to believe it" deals. Go find an instructor at an event with a race seat on the right side that really fits you, and see if your Recaros don't suddenly feel awfully sloppy... ;-)
The challenge is going to be finding such a race seat. Most people who are heavily into this sport are much smaller than I am (actually most people in general are quite a lot smaller than I am, at least around here), or at least less bulky. I stand 6'3" and weigh in at 225 lb. I have a long torso and long legs, and am fairly wide to boot. This is why I fit in the Recaros so well. They are just wide enough for me. The bolsters are actually slightly compressed by my body when I sit in the seat.


Race seat bolsters are not only an order of magnitude larger than those on any street seat, they're also stiffer. In my car (Sparco Circuit seat), you simply do NOT move, no matter what foolishness you're pulling inside the car. 1.4G cornering? No sweat, you ain't moving!

Disclaimers: I'm in no way suggesting that the Recaros aren't an improvement over a base, leather seat engineered for hippopotomi. I'm also not suggesting that to have fun on track with your car, that you NEED to have a cage, containment seat, 6-point harnesses, HANS, etc. I'm really only trying to get you (and others lurking) to really think about what's happening out there.
Makes sense. I like the idea. Or, rather, I'd like the idea more if it weren't for the fact that "because streetcar".

I actually suspect that the seat mod is sorta like suspension mods. You may be happy with what you have, but you might not be if you discover what a few modifications can do. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will! :biggrin:


I think this is something I'll visit at the point it becomes obvious that my current seats just aren't getting it done.

But here's a question for you: would one be better off with a racing seat and the standard 3-point seatbelt with CG Lock, or (assuming one fits snugly within it as I do) with the Recaros and a 6-point harness? Which is to say, which change gets you greater benefit under those conditions?
 

csamsh

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Seat and 3 point belt. Buuuuutttt....if you're doing a seat, you're doing a harness.

Sparco Evo3. Problem solved.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I think this is something I'll visit at the point it becomes obvious that my current seats just aren't getting it done.

Annndddd.... we have a winner!! Run into the limits before modding is ALWAYS the best approach (except with brakes!).

But here's a question for you: would one be better off with a racing seat and the standard 3-point seatbelt with CG Lock, or (assuming one fits snugly within it as I do) with the Recaros and a 6-point harness? Which is to say, which change gets you greater benefit under those conditions?

Neither. You'd be best off with a race seat and a harness. Period. IN MOST CASES a 3-point belt won't properly restrain the driver in a race seat, and a 6-point won't properly restrain the driver in a street seat. Again, think of them as "safety systems," and how they're designed to work together.

IMO (and strictly in IMO!!) the seat is what keeps you planted in place, and the harnesses are there for when you run out of talent.

Safety systems: 3-point, stock seats, airbags: good, solid safety package. 6-points, race seat, HANS: good, solid safety package. Note that there's very little that crosses over from one to the next.
 

claudermilk

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Disclaimers: I'm in no way suggesting that the Recaros aren't an improvement over a base, leather seat engineered for hippopotomi. I'm also not suggesting that to have fun on track with your car, that you NEED to have a cage, containment seat, 6-point harnesses, HANS, etc. I'm really only trying to get you (and others lurking) to really think about what's happening out there.
I can tell you I am thinking about that every time I move this last week. LOL...ow.

Makes sense. I like the idea. Or, rather, I'd like the idea more if it weren't for the fact that "because streetcar".

I actually suspect that the seat mod is sorta like suspension mods. You may be happy with what you have, but you might not be if you discover what a few modifications can do. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will! :biggrin:


I think this is something I'll visit at the point it becomes obvious that my current seats just aren't getting it done.?

I'm in the same boat. Right now I'm not sure that the seats themselves aren't getting it done. In general, they fit me well. I've just discovered that the stock 3-point--even with a CG Lock--now is most definitely NOT getting it done on track any more.

Annndddd.... we have a winner!! Run into the limits before modding is ALWAYS the best approach (except with brakes!).

This is where I'm at. I know that I'm no longer being held in place properly on track. Since the car is dual purpose & I need access to the rear seats, I cannot consider the above suggestions (Circuit or Evo3); if at some point I go to a more purpose-made seat, it has to have a movable back. Becausestreetcar. So....for the moment a rollbar (removable), and proper harness are on the near horizon.
 

kcbrown

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Seat and 3 point belt. Buuuuutttt....if you're doing a seat, you're doing a harness.

Sparco Evo3. Problem solved.

So ... in this latest track event (NCRC at Laguna Seca again, yesterday and the day before), I tried to pay some attention to what the seat was doing for me with respect to holding me in place.

The only place I think it could use some improvement is in the upper body area. It's not horrible, but it could use some improvement. Other than that, it seems to be holding me in place nicely, in part because it almost "compresses" me in place between the bolsters. It is only because the bolsters have compressible padding that I'm able to fit at all.

One thing I've noticed about the design of the racing seats I've seen is that the bottom bolsters are essentially solid, which is what you'd want. But that means that you'd better fit within them.

The Sparco Evo 3 has roughly a maximum of 17 inches (440 mm) of width between the bottom bolsters, and 14 inches (350 mm) of width at the hips:

2014-02-27_15-35-10_0.jpg



Like I said, I'm a big guy. I measure 19 inches at the hips, and the seating position is such that my legs would need to spread out slightly from there, so 19 inches would be the minimum width. It would have to increase as you move away from the "hinge" (for lack of a better word. I'm referring here to the point at which the vertical portion and the horizontal portion intersect. Yes, I know the Evo 3 doesn't actually have a hinge). In fact, I'm so wide that a seat that would properly fit me down there might not even fit in the car. The amount of room for both me and sufficiently wide bolsters doesn't look to be there.

On top of that, I measure 28 inches from my seat bottom to the top of my shoulders, while the Evo 3 only has 24 inches of distance between the seat bottom and the top of the shoulder harness holes. If I were to attempt to use harnesses with that seat, my spine would be compressed by the harnesses in an impact.


Another problem is the angle of the seat back. It's almost straight up, such that even with my headliner modification, my head might not clear the ceiling (though I expect it would, just not by much). I know of no way to determine that in advance.


So no, the Sparco Evo 3 doesn't look to be big enough. My bet is that a seat that is large enough to properly hold me in place simply isn't made. But if there is such a seat, I'd like to know which one it is.

For now, it looks like the Recaros will have to do.
 
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white86hatch

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Kcbrown I'm a large man myself. The evo3 is the only seat besides a 17" kirkey that fits me. I'm going with the evo 3 as I'm not sure I'd be able to live with the kirkey daily.
 

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