Best pass

[wbt]

Such intolerance from the gear Nazis here, as usual. The NA Coyotes that are quicker than my car are much lighter (lots of weight reduction) and/or have more mods/power. My car is 3800 lbs going down the track and has only a couple of mods. 100% stock engine down to the stock airbox & paper air filter plus 100% stock suspension.

Again, the key to a successful build is in choosing parts that work in harmony together in the same powerband. There are certainly some combinations that work better with less gear, just as some combinations work better with more gear. Don't let anyone tell you that one gear ratio is the only "right" ratio for all combinations.

It's not intolerance, it's having the data to backup the recommendation. We have been down this road. More gear doesn't = better ET N/A. The past several years I have personally witnessed this fallacy. I will pose the question once more, why do the quickest/fastest stock long block Coyote's run less gear?

Your combo is far from optimal. You want to talk about weight.....how about DA?

You need to have a serious look at the transmission ratios compared to tire size and optimal RPM. Once you understand that then you will know why more gear doesn't = better ET's with the auto.

I have a proven, repeatable combo to get these cars into the 10's N/A and high rear gear ratios isn't one of them.

Insightful threads:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107585
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107063

 

[Five Oh Brian]

It's not intolerance, it's having the data to backup the recommendation. We have been down this road. More gear doesn't = better ET N/A. The past several years I have personally witnessed this fallacy. I will pose the question once more, why do the quickest/fastest stock long block Coyote's run less gear?

Your combo is far from optimal. You want to talk about weight.....how about DA?

You need to have a serious look at the transmission ratios compared to tire size and optimal RPM. Once you understand that then you will know why more gear doesn't = better ET's with the auto.

I have a proven, repeatable combo to get these cars into the 10's N/A and high rear gear ratios isn't one of them.

Insightful threads:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107585
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107063

So, Warren,

I just read the first link you noted above about Mike Rousch's car (he does my tuning, by the way). His car may be heavy like mine and have 3.15 gears, but did you notice that he has a CJ IM, SCJ TB, and a 5 inch CAI? Sure he went 11.16 @ 122, but that was in mineshaft air (-385 to -870'). So, more power with the intake mods and mineshaft air. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison to my car. Here's apples-to-apples: Scroll down in Mike's post to post #19 and he says that the best he went before the CJ IM, SCJ TB, and CAI was 11.63 @ 116. My car has gone quicker and faster!

And, I just read the second link you noted above about KrisR's car (Kris and I have shared info back & forth a lot over the past year or two). Please note that he has the Boss 302 IM and CAI, while I'm still running the factory IM and factory airbox with a Ford paper air filter. So, just like the Mike Rousch example, not apples-to-apples, yet my car is just as quick and fast as KrisR's car. Both of us have the same PB ET at 11.57, and I've made several passes at 118 mph just like KrisR. Our time slips are damn near identical at every point. But, he's doing it with more mods than me (IM & CAI) while the only other difference is the gears (my 4.10's vs his 3.15's). Does that mean that the gains from IM & CAI = the gains from 4.10's?

Mike and Kris' cars are nearly identical to my car, other than rear end gears and IM's. So, Warren, based on the two examples you've given us, it appears that my next mod should be an IM (Boss or CJ) and a rollbar to keep from getting booted off the track.

I'll keep the 4.10's for now, although I might step down to 3.90's if my trap speeds go up from the IM swap since my car makes the 4-5 shift about 50 feet after the 1/4 mile traps. Thank you, as always, for enlightening me.

 

[pics06gtstang]

2011 GT automatic Car is full weight, stock front wheels,drag radials on rear mods are cj intake, frpp cai, pypes or x pipe, gt500 tbody and Brenspeed tune any opinions or advice no suspension work either is this good or do I need another tune. I have a BBR tune that I thought was good but ran fastest on the Bren tune so I'm lost to many tuners and everyone has different opinions

I am confused .
I thought this was a nitrous car and that bren would not tune it , and ya said BBR tuned it for a 150 shot , so I am cunfussed on how the bren tune that you said "they would not do" can be faster .
Maybe turn on your kit and load the better tune as you stated b4 .
But then again I don't see your NEX setup listed in this thread ?

 

[Silver11gt]

I am confused .
I thought this was a nitrous car and that bren would not tune it , and ya said BBR tuned it for a 150 shot , so I am cunfussed on how the bren tune that you said "they would not do" can be faster .
Maybe turn on your kit and load the better tune as you stated b4 .
But then again I don't see your NEX setup listed in this thread ?

I was talking motor tunes between the two I do have a zex kit on it Bren won't look at the data logs they just assume their stuff is dead on I guess and BBR is still working on the nitrous tune. 2 months later still not finished I took up for them till now. Now I see why they have a bad rep and the question here was about gear ratio

 

[wbt]

So, Warren,

I just read the first link you noted above about Mike Rousch's car (he does my tuning, by the way). His car may be heavy like mine and have 3.15 gears, but did you notice that he has a CJ IM, SCJ TB, and a 5 inch CAI? Sure he went 11.16 @ 122, but that was in mineshaft air (-385 to -870'). So, more power with the intake mods and mineshaft air. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison to my car. Here's apples-to-apples: Scroll down in Mike's post to post #19 and he says that the best he went before the CJ IM, SCJ TB, and CAI was 11.63 @ 116. My car has gone quicker and faster!

And, I just read the second link you noted above about KrisR's car (Kris and I have shared info back & forth a lot over the past year or two). Please note that he has the Boss 302 IM and CAI, while I'm still running the factory IM and factory airbox with a Ford paper air filter. So, just like the Mike Rousch example, not apples-to-apples, yet my car is just as quick and fast as KrisR's car. Both of us have the same PB ET at 11.57, and I've made several passes at 118 mph just like KrisR. Our time slips are damn near identical at every point. But, he's doing it with more mods than me (IM & CAI) while the only other difference is the gears (my 4.10's vs his 3.15's). Does that mean that the gains from IM & CAI = the gains from 4.10's?

Mike and Kris' cars are nearly identical to my car, other than rear end gears and IM's. So, Warren, based on the two examples you've given us, it appears that my next mod should be an IM (Boss or CJ) and a rollbar to keep from getting booted off the track.

I'll keep the 4.10's for now, although I might step down to 3.90's if my trap speeds go up from the IM swap since my car makes the 4-5 shift about 50 feet after the 1/4 mile traps. Thank you, as always, for enlightening me.

So Brian...if you want to be patronizing.....I posted those examples as a reflection on your current tuner. Neither of those cars have higher rear gear ratios and in fact he doesn't recommend running a higher ratio. Why is that?
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1991698&postcount=61

You also glanced over this post: http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1880208&postcount=5

That car at the time had a stock rear gear, stock intake manifold, stock airbox, O/R x-pipe, aluminum DS, Roush upper control arm, converter and the tires and wheels. It ran that time in positive DA and still had more in it with that combo.

Brian, you still haven't answered why the quickest/fastest stock long block Coyotes run less gear.

Brian, you still haven't addressed the trans/gear/tire relationship (the spreadsheet is out there, go search).

The correct combos have been vetted out. It took years and many trips to the track to get there testing intake manifolds, CAI's, fuel, gear, tires, suspension, etc.

No one is going to be willing to help you if you aren't open minded and willing to steer down the right path when the questions start.

Go back and re-read this thread: http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111911

 

[fiveohalex]

There are a couple of tricks that can make the car 60 better based on a tune.
(leaning it out on the hit)
(additional timing)
(torque management)
Your tunes (if he knows what he's doing) should be able to at least help. Especially if you logged the car at the track.
Have you datalogged the car?

 

[Five Oh Brian]

Go back and re-read this thread: http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111911

Okay, I'm rereading this thread. Here's what you posted in post #40...

Actually a 4.10 is the wrong gear unless you are running the stock intake manifold and a 28" tire.

The proper rear gear ratios break down like:

Stock intake manifold, 28" tire:
3.15 - cross at the top of third
4.10 - cross at the top of fourth

Guess what? I'm running the stock intake manifold and a 28" tire, so per your response above, 4.10's are "proper" if I want to trap in fourth (which I do).

 

[Five Oh Brian]

Brian, you still haven't answered why the quickest/fastest stock long block Coyotes run less gear.

I chose a gear that allows me to trap at the top of 4th gear. 4.10's and a 28" tall tire are good for about 118 mph max in 4th gear. My car goes into 5th gear about 50 feet past the traps. So, I'm tapped out with the 4.10's now.

If I add any more power, my trap speeds will increase and the 4.10's will come out of the car to avoid trapping in 5th gear. Looks like a 3.90 gear will let me trap at the top of 4th gear up to about 122 mph. I can't imagine ever adding forced induction to this car or building it NA so much more that I'd trap higher than about 120 mph, so 3.90's will likely be the right gear for me going forward.

To answer your question, the NA Coyotes that are faster than me have more power and/or less weight so they trap at higher speeds. That higher speed means they need to gear down to work with their combination. My current combination works great with a 4.10, but my combination will be changing soon, and I'll change gearing to match, accordingly.

 

[wbt]

Okay, I'm rereading this thread. Here's what you posted in post #40...



Guess what? I'm running the stock intake manifold and a 28" tire, so per your response above, 4.10's are "proper" if I want to trap in fourth (which I do).

....let's not leave out the rest of the content in that post Brian:

The reason less gear is more for the auto is the 4.17 first gear. Do the math on what gear ratio is equivalent running a C4 vs. even a 3.15 gear with the 6R80. Depending on the planetary ratio it is in the 5.xx range.

So couple the truck like first gear in the 6R80 with a 4.10 or 4.30 and now you are going to start having traction issues and have less consistency especially on a marginal prep. Add that extra shift going down track and it becomes another negative for more gear.

I have seen it first hand, less is more.

I chose a gear that allows me to trap at the top of 4th gear. 4.10's and a 28" tall tire are good for about 118 mph max in 4th gear. My car goes into 5th gear about 50 feet past the traps. So, I'm tapped out with the 4.10's now.

If I add any more power, my trap speeds will increase and the 4.10's will come out of the car to avoid trapping in 5th gear. Looks like a 3.90 gear will let me trap at the top of 4th gear up to about 122 mph. I can't imagine ever adding forced induction to this car or building it NA so much more that I'd trap higher than about 120 mph, so 3.90's will likely be the right gear for me going forward.

To answer your question, the NA Coyotes that are faster than me have more power and/or less weight so they trap at higher speeds. That higher speed means they need to gear down to work with their combination. My current combination works great with a 4.10, but my combination will be changing soon, and I'll change gearing to match, accordingly.

You are about to get into a situation where you are throwing good money after bad. Sit down, define your goals and then buy what you need to get there once. You are already there with the rear gear needing to be changed out and a 3.90 isn't the answer.

BTW - a 4.10 with a 28" tire should support more than 118 MPH in the 1/4 mile. If it is shifting at or before that then you have a tune issue and you need to work that out with him.

 

[Five Oh Brian]

So couple the truck like first gear in the 6R80 with a 4.10 or 4.30 and now you are going to start having traction issues and have less consistency especially on a marginal prep. Add that extra shift going down track and it becomes another negative for more gear.

I have zero issues with traction at the track - even at the marginally prepped Bremerton Raceway. Consistent 1.59-1.64 sixties and 1/4 mile ET's that are super repeatable in the 11.57 to 11.65 range all day long. Last week at Pacific Raceways, even the announcer made it a point to mention how incredibly consistent my car was running.

Extra shift into 4th gear? Who cares! Tuned automatics shift lightning quick and with a 5,000 rpm stall converter, the revs never drop much at WOT, keeping me right in the powerband.

 

[Five Oh Brian]

Sit down, define your goals and then buy what you need to get there once.

Over a year ago, I did just that. I have no desire to run below 11.50 as my car is a daily driver and I need a back seat, so NO rollbar in my future with this car. I simply wanted to get into the 11.50's during normal weather and never run slower than 11.99 in the middle of summer in the worst density altitude. Guess what, I'm there. I've made about a half dozen passes in the 11.5's with dozens and dozens of passes in the 11.6's. In the middle of last summer with sweltering heat and DA's nearing 3000' I never ran worse than 11.8's. I have accomplished exactly what I was looking to do with this car.

 

[Five Oh Brian]

I have free gears and I'm a tech so I can install my self so not really out any $ is why I was asking wbt

Still considering a gear swap after all of the entertaining dialogue in your thread?

 

[wbt]

I have zero issues with traction at the track - even at the marginally prepped Bremerton Raceway. Consistent 1.59-1.64 sixties and 1/4 mile ET's that are super repeatable in the 11.57 to 11.65 range all day long. Last week at Pacific Raceways, even the announcer made it a point to mention how incredibly consistent my car.

Extra shift into 4th gear? Who cares! Tuned automatics shift lightning quick and with a 5,000 rpm stall converter, the revs never drop much at WOT, keeping me right in the powerband.

A 5K RPM 5c converter? Is it some type of prototype unit because last I checked, they don't make one of those as a standard offering. A 5c is advertised as 4000-4200.

Tuned auto's shifting lightning quick? If you say so. Sounds like that 4-5 shift is working out perfectly for you at 118 MPH. The shift is being commanded before 6,600 RPM which is totally wrong but you are going to throw good money after bad by switching to a 3.90 when in reality the tune needs to be corrected.

Over a year ago, I did just that. I have no desire to run below 11.50 as my car is a daily driver and I need a back seat, so NO rollbar in my future with this car. I simply wanted to get into the 11.50's during normal weather and never run slower than 11.99 in the middle of summer in the worst density altitude. Guess what, I'm there. I've made about a half dozen passes in the 11.5's with dozens and dozens of passes in the 11.6's. In the middle of last summer with sweltering heat and DA's nearing 3000' I never ran worse than 11.8's. I have accomplished exactly what I was looking to do with this car.

You keep saying that but then you are talking about adding long tubes, kmember and different intakes but are content at running 11.50's and don't want to run a roll bar.

I am done trying to reason with you Brian. You have your mind set on running an inferior combination and there is nothing anyone can say to change it. Please don't lead other's down the same, incorrect path.

 

[Five Oh Brian]

A 5K RPM 5c converter? Is it some type of prototype unit because last I checked, they don't make one of those as a standard offering. A 5c is advertised as 4000-4200.

Warren, I don't have a 5C. Chris at Circle-D put together a 4E for me that flashes to 5000 rpm's. The 4E isn't listed on their website, but they do offer it for customers who want more stall than the 5C.

 

[wbt]

Warren, I don't have a 5C. Chris at Circle-D put together a 4E for me that flashes to 5000 rpm's. The 4E isn't listed on their website, but they do offer it for customers who want more stall than the 5C.

OK. That higher stall shouldn't matter between shifts going down track. You don't want the converter locking late in the run and you absolutely don't want it unlocking between shifts.

But what do I know Brian.

 

[Silver11gt]

Wbt I was doing some calculating and putting 3.31 gears in my car would give about the same first gear final drive as a manual with 3.73 besides first then the autos actually have .1 less gear in the other speeds so if I have free gears and free labor and free time would it not be worth it I understand first is low but the others are pretty close so more gearing should help pull threw these gears? Plus a convertor is 1200 and I have to save up for that lol

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

I have 3.31's in my car, wbt pulled out the 3.73's i had. Car is more fun with the smaller gear and converter.

 

[Silver11gt]

See that's what I have been figuring is 3.31 would be perfect for my combo

 

[wbt]

Wbt I was doing some calculating and putting 3.31 gears in my car would give about the same first gear final drive as a manual with 3.73 besides first then the autos actually have .1 less gear in the other speeds so if I have free gears and free labor and free time would it not be worth it I understand first is low but the others are pretty close so more gearing should help pull threw these gears? Plus a convertor is 1200 and I have to save up for that lol

See that's what I have been figuring is 3.31 would be perfect for my combo

Here are the comparisons between the 6R80 and MT82 ratios and final drive:

6R80 - 3.15 rear gear
1st 4.17 13.14
2nd 2.34 7.37
3rd 1.52 4.79
4th 1.14 3.59
5th 0.87 2.74
6th 0.69 2.17

MT82 - 3.73 rear gear
1st 3.66 13.65
2nd 2.43 9.06
3rd 1.69 6.30
4th 1.32 4.92
5th 1 3.73
6th 0.65 2.42


That 4.17 first is the bugaboo.

The 3.31 will support ~124 at the top of 3rd at 7,500 with a 28" rear tire which is just about all everyone will need N/A.

It will support ~154 at the top of 4th at 7,000 and 143 at 6,500. Plenty of room for a power adder if that is in the cards down the road.

The other option would be to take gear out of the car for a power adder. For example, a 2.73 with a 28" tire will net 146 at 7,300 in 3rd gear.

This would give you a final drive ratio of:
1st 4.17 11.38
2nd 2.34 6.39
3rd 1.52 4.15
4th 1.14 3.11
5th 0.87 2.38
6th 0.69 1.88

IMO a 3.31 is just about an ideal gear with the auto cars but the converter should come fist every time. Look for a used Circle D 4 or 5c. They are out there.

 

[Five Oh Brian]

OK. That higher stall shouldn't matter between shifts going down track. You don't want the converter locking late in the run and you absolutely don't want it unlocking between shifts.

You are correct. Mike Rousch did a great job tuning my car's shifting for WOT and daily driving. At WOT, the convertor locks up part way through 2nd gear and does not unlock going down the track.