Brenspeed / Comp NSR (No Springs Required) Cams

[killermach1]

Does anyone have these cams, or know someone who does? I am interested in them and would like opinions on them.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

These are just off the shelf cams from Comp, anyone can get or sell them. Comp designed these and did all the testing themselves.

I would never use these in a blower car pushing more than 8 psi boost. The only car they seem to be benificial for is a NA lightly modified car.

If your going to do cams, alot of the gain is from springs and/or having a more aggressive lift. Now they kept the lift down so they could use the stock springs.

If you have a forced induction application you are going to float the valves with stock springs and a higher lift cam. If you have a built motor and really cranking up the power the stock springs are going to float even worse.

JimIII

 

[zipperhead]

How does forced induction contribute to valve float. I understand how a higher lift can.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

How does forced induction contribute to valve float. I understand how a higher lift can.

Here is a link to some good info on valve springs and Supercharged modular engines.

http://www.magnumpowers.com/light_spring.php

We did a lot of testing with this company on the Lightning pickup trucks and saw huge gains when going to stiffer valve springs

 

[zipperhead]

Thanks for the link, Very interesting and educational. Do you know the point where the 05+ Mustang GT's start having issues with there valves spring rates?

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Thanks for the link, Very interesting and educational. Do you know the point where the 05+ Mustang GT's start having issues with there valves spring rates?

We have noticed big gains from the valve springs with stock cams as early as 12-13 psi boost. I could imagine with a higher lift that you would see very nice gains even before 10 psi boost.

JimIII

 

[US-1]

Relatively simple once you understand that the spring is what has to draw the valve closed and hold it closed against the boost pressure. Remember, there is always pressure on the face of the valve even when it is closed. The entire intake tract is pressurized. These are relatively small valves and do not weigh much at all. Without good tolerances on the guides and valve seats, along with inadequate spring pressure, the valve can actually get pushed around by boost pressure.

Found out something interesting years ago about lighter valves in high boost applications. You would think that with a lighter valve the spring would be able to do it's job easier. Wrong. We tried titanium valves in a turbocharged two valve engine. Exact opposite happened. Valve was TOO light and would jump all over the place no matter how much spring we threw at it. Killed the upper rpm power under boost. Put a stainless steel valve back in the heads and problem was solved. Picked up 145 horsepower by switching back to the stainless valve.

Another thing you need to keep in mind about valve springs even in N/A applications. While these cams might be mild enough for a stock spring they will still put increased stress on the stock spring. Add to that the added stress of you putting your foot into the firewall considerably more now that you have some newfound power and you accelerate the spring fatigue. I am of a mindset that anytime you put added stress on the valvetrain (whether by camshafts, boost, or both) you MUST upgrade the valvesprings. Cheap insurance.

 

[Darth Stang]

Okay, so here's the million dollar question:

What strength spring do we need in our supercharged 05+ mustangs and how difficult is it to replace them? Can it be done in a day or does it require completely removing and breaking down the heads. In which case, it's probably smarter to get used ones and have them reworked before building your engine?

I'm planning on getting a Saleen put in with about 10PSI, so what springs would I need to avoid valve float?

-Darth

 

[LSlayer]

Al Papitto of Boss 330 Racing states that the Cam Phasers on the 3V heads are too weak to deal with stiffer than stock springs. He says that the springs on the cam phasers themselves aren't strong enough to properly hold the phasers in position when higher rate valvesprings are used. In certain cases the phasers will rock back and forth producing a lot of noise and even cracking on occasion.

Any merit in this statement, or is this someone trying to sell aftermarket cam phasers?

 

[Herknav]

Hmm, I have a Saleen at 10 PSI with stock heads, etc... I don't think I have a problem, and I don't think you will either...

 

[US-1]

Okay, so here's the million dollar question:

What strength spring do we need in our supercharged 05+ mustangs and how difficult is it to replace them? Can it be done in a day or does it require completely removing and breaking down the heads. In which case, it's probably smarter to get used ones and have them reworked before building your engine?

I'm planning on getting a Saleen put in with about 10PSI, so what springs would I need to avoid valve float?

-Darth

The Comp Cams 26113-24 spring kit, Manley Nextek 221-429-24, or the PAC 1233 will work fine. Changing springs in these engines is a daunting task for a novice. There is a special tool needed to compress the springs and you will have to have an air compressor and screw in fitting that goes into the spark plug hole to hold the valves closed while changing the springs. Can it be done in a day? Yes. Again...not easy but can be done. I really don't think you will have a problem with the stock springs for quite some time with that blower at 10psi. If you plan to push towards 20 psi or planning on seriously racing the car competitively then you might think about changing springs.

Al Papitto of Boss 330 Racing states that the Cam Phasers on the 3V heads are too weak to deal with stiffer than stock springs. He says that the springs on the cam phasers themselves aren't strong enough to properly hold the phasers in position when higher rate valvesprings are used. In certain cases the phasers will rock back and forth producing a lot of noise and even cracking on occasion.

Any merit in this statement, or is this someone trying to sell aftermarket cam phasers?

First....I will not attempt to judge Al's statements in a magazine article or question his motives in making such a statement. I do not believe he has to resort to such tactics to sell his designs. Al is exceptionally good at his business and has proven that fact more than enough times. He is one of the truly great minds in the business. Having said that (if it sounds like a disclaimer...it is!).........

Second....I do not believe the cam phasers can be seriously affected until you begin pushing the boost, rpm range, and spring pressure up to a point that most street/strip cars won't EVER see. Were someone to use shimmed springs, extremely aggressive camshafts, 7000+ rpm, and 18+ pounds of boost in a very aggressive driving style then, yes, you could hurt the phasers. I am sure that is what Al was referring to with his comments. For 96% of the 3V cars running around the adjustable phasers are not necessary. If you begin to really push the limits of 3V 4.6 performance then you might consider calling Al and buying his setup. If I ever push mine that far I would not hesitate to buy them.

 

[LSlayer]

Well, its cool to know that Al is one of the good guys in the game. I definetely have seen his name attached to some fast Fords thats for sure.

 

[tom281]

Could somebody give the thread-starter information on these cams incase he is NOT blown?

 

[killermach1]

Could somebody give the thread-starter information on these cams incase he is NOT blown?

Thanks, I was wondering if someone would ever talk to my original question. I am about 85% sold on the idea of getting these cams, I will likely be N/A for at least the forseeable future 2-4 years.

 

[US-1]

Thanks, I was wondering if someone would ever talk to my original question. I am about 85% sold on the idea of getting these cams, I will likely be N/A for at least the forseeable future 2-4 years.

Asked and answered above. But here it is again.

Another thing you need to keep in mind about valve springs even in N/A applications. While these cams might be mild enough for a stock spring they will still put increased stress on the stock spring. Add to that the added stress of you putting your foot into the firewall considerably more now that you have some newfound power and you accelerate the spring fatigue. I am of a mindset that anytime you put added stress on the valvetrain (whether by camshafts, boost, or both) you MUST upgrade the valvesprings. Cheap insurance.

Everyone happy now?

 

[killermach1]

it's not really cheap insurance, close to 1000 for the cams and springs, as well as a lot ov money for the install, the labor to install them costs almost as the product, I dont know the jusry is still out on this I really want to get them but since they are so new no one else has any experience with them, decisions decisions.

 

[racevert]

What would be the point of buying these cams? Even for a N/A car there will be little or no gain and I will vote for no gain at all. What motivation would you even have to put in these "no springs" cams on your car.
These cams are so mild theywon't even sound "cammed up" if that is what you are after.
The stock cams will work fine and save you $2000 or more of getting this all done. That is half the price of a supercharger for maybe 0-5 HP gain?
Seems like a really bad idea to me.

 

[killermach1]

What would be the point of buying these cams? Even for a N/A car there will be little or no gain and I will vote for no gain at all. What motivation would you even have to put in these "no springs" cams on your car.
These cams are so mild theywon't even sound "cammed up" if that is what you are after.
The stock cams will work fine and save you $2000 or more of getting this all done. That is half the price of a supercharger for maybe 0-5 HP gain?
Seems like a really bad idea to me.

Ok, the point is saving money first of all, $640 for the NSR Cams vs $900+ for Comp stage 3 cams springs and retainers plus close to $1000 for install with the NSR cams I could have them installed for under $1000. The have a 24 @ 5700, 31 @6200 hp gain, no they dont have the more agressive sound of the other cams but the money savings and 20+ hp gain look good to me. I dont know, my only hesitation is warranty loss

 

[racevert]

Well 1600 dollars for 20 HP would not be saving money. That is approximately 100 dollars per horsepower.
I would also say you will never see 20 HP from those cams in my opinion anyways.
People are posting gains of 20-25 HP from the Comp cams with new springs installed. There are dynos posted of cars getting 18 HP from the Comp cams and beehive spring and losing 20 LBS of torque.
So for that matter if you paid for the cams that reuire springs, the springs, locks and additional labor would probably total 2500 dollars.
That would be 100 dollars per horsepower