Comp cams low dyno numbers and check engine light

[Jake Schmale]

I think I've just about covered all the bases but in case I've missed anything, I'm sure another person will add their comments.
Just to review:

1. Cam timing off on driver's side possibly either because the phaser is one tooth off, or because the phaser limiter was installed in the fully retarded rather than the fully advanced position. New phaser bolt required if the phaser is unbolted from the cam, and discard the used bolt.

2. Redo dyno tune once cam timing is correct and synchronized on both cylinder banks.

You mentioned you have 1-3/4" headers. Are they Kooks, MAC, or something else?

Thanks for the info, the headers are hooker blackheart in stainless steel 1-3/4 x 3 inch collector.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Thanks for the info, the headers are hooker blackheart in stainless steel 1-3/4 x 3 inch collector.

Those headers are a great choice to go with the higher rpm capability of the 127500 cams. The 1-3/4" diameter primaries are tuned to a torque peak of 5100rpm which coincides with where you'd expect those cams to peak, and the full length of those primaries will broaden the torque curve in the midrange below 5100rpm.

https://www.holley.com/products/discontinued_product/parts/70103314-RHKR

For comparison, the smaller and more traditional 1-5/8" primary headers for the 05-10 GT are tuned to a torque peak of 4400rpm.

 

[Jake Schmale]

Those headers are a great choice to go with the higher rpm capability of the 127500 cams. The 1-3/4" diameter primaries are tuned to a torque peak of 5100rpm which coincides with where you'd expect those cams to peak, and the full length of those primaries will broaden the torque curve in the midrange below 5100rpm.

https://www.holley.com/products/discontinued_product/parts/70103314-RHKR

For comparison, the smaller and more traditional 1-5/8" primary headers for the 05-10 GT are tuned to a torque peak of 4400rpm.

That’s good to hear, hopefully the shop fixes it and gets the tuning right. From what I understand these cams are easier to tune than the thumpers and Mutha thumpers.

 

[DieHarder]

Hello everyone, I Just had some cams installed in my 07 GT, specifically the comp 127500 along with the .650 max lift springs and phaser limiters. I also had the shop do a custom dyno tune on a dyno jet(was previously tuned by LITO). Anyway…the car only made 310rwhp and 316rwtq??. The car is FBO with the exception of an intake manifold, throttle body, and electric water pump. The car actually feels less powerful all together and I’m really unimpressed. On the drive home the check engine light came on throwing P0345, P0349, P1000. Is it worth it having them re-tune it or take it somewhere else? Does this seem abnormal?

Personally, I'd go back to Lito. Probably less expensive as well. Understand it can be a pain to swap out cams but at least you know it was done right when you're the one doing the work.

 

[Jake Schmale]

Here’s an update…they’re telling me to drive the car for a while and see if anything else shows up. They also said the cam sensor is probably bad. Weird how it goes “bad” after they installed the cam.

 

[JC SSP]

Hmmm strange but not impossible. How many miles on your GT?

I would not drive it or at least not get on it hard!

Possible solution.... change both cam sensors with original Motrocraft and see if codes disappear and if decent power is restored. I am not sure, but I think your still going to have to go back and get it re-tuned, since they tuned it with faulty sensors...

 

[Jake Schmale]

Hmmm strange but not impossible. How many miles on your GT?

I would not drive it or at least not get on it hard!

Possible solution.... change both cam sensors with original Motrocraft and see if codes disappear and if decent power is restored. I am not sure, but I think your still going to have to go back and get it re-tuned, since they tuned it with faulty sensors...

The car only has 78,000 miles(it’s an 07). Never had an issue with anything like that until now. I’m really starting to get frustrated, especially after paying $600 for a custom dyno tune. If I pull the valve cover off is there anyway to tell if the chain and sprocket were aligned correctly? A comp cams limiter kit was installed with the cam.

 

[Laga]

Before you drive it. Inspect the wires for damage, repair if necessary. If they look good, replace the sensor. It’s a $30 part. Then, if the CEL comes back on, call the shop and tell them to send tow truck. Have them check that the cam is aligned correctly. Get your money back from the tune. Email Lito.

 

[JC SSP]

Ok not trying to be cheap... but if you swap driver side cam sensor with passenger side and get a code on the passenger side then for sure it's the sensor. I would just replace one or both and see what codes pop up?

 

[GlassTop09]

Ok not trying to be cheap... but if you swap driver side cam sensor with passenger side and get a code on the passenger side then for sure it's the sensor. I would just replace one or both and see what codes pop up?

......this right here....... 1st thing I'd do is to swap sides w\ CPS's after verifying wiring\connectors are good, then check to see if DTC's move.....if they don't you've already ruled out CPS's as culprit thus no need to buy any as the PCM has already done the "testing" of the original B2 CPS for you.....by properly reading B1 cam phaser timing positioning thru the original B2 CPS. Also, this is a good way of checking if the CPS got struck by a bent inward cam phaser timing tab that closed up the gap between the 2.

IMHO, always start off with diagnosis using methods that don't cost you anything......just some time then progress on from there.

These are 2-wire analog type sensors meaning they generate their own voltage\current from the cam phaser timing tabs crossing in front of them & they very rarely do fail.

The P0345 DTC comes from the PCM running synch tests during cranking (tests for synch of camshafts timing to crankshaft due to no oil press......cam phasers should be locked at 0* thus PCM will know where the cam phaser timing tabs...the middle tab of the 3 tab side of phaser timing plate....should be in rotation off CKP sensor) as the PCM isn't picking up the cam phaser 0* timing tab signal on B2 at the position it should be at.

The P0349 DTC comes after engine has started thus oil press is restored so cam phasers are unlocked & held in place by EOP thru VCT solenoids at same 0* thus PCM reruns synch tests again.....again the PCM isn't picking up the 0* timing tab signal on B2 cam phaser where it should be.

These 2 descriptions I typed above is what the DTC descriptions don't tell you......thus can cause some confusion in diagnosing these if the actual process that the PCM is going thru is not understood. Note also that the CPS doesn't have to be bad for these DTC's to occur.....PCM can see the actual 0* cam timing signal from the CPS.....just not where it is supposed to be.

The cam timing signaling is close enough for PCM to allow engine to start\run (a perk of VCT as there will be some cam timing fluctuation going on even when operation is good, thus there is a hard coded limit that determines successful operation from a failure) but engine power is off due to 1 camshaft being far enough out of phase w\ the other......or so the PCM thinks it is.

1 cam phaser tooth spacing is equal to approx 6*........

This also can have occurred after you picked up the car....thus the shop could be accurate in what they're saying. There are several possible considerations that can cause these 2 DTC's to occur......but the most common reasons are usually due to a mechanical issue.....not electrical.

Yeah, I know this isn't what some folks want to hear, but................just saying.

Since you've had cams installed & more specifically CC 127500 cams (which require phaser limiters installed in both cam phasers so both cam phasers have been "disturbed" further & also be removed from the timing chains to do this work then reinstalled.....especially if this was done w\ front engine timing cover still installed).....this is the 1st place IMHO where this issue should be looked into.

If you had something like Forscan or Torque app (the free stuff outside of Ford IDS), you can easily check the VCT\VCT2 cam timing for error positioning to verify if the cam timing is off before sending car back to shop (could use the results to bolster your claims).

My 2 cents.........

Hope this helps.

 

[Jake Schmale]

......this right here....... 1st thing I'd do is to swap sides w\ CPS's after verifying wiring\connectors are good, then check to see if DTC's move.....if they don't you've already ruled out CPS's as culprit thus no need to buy any as the PCM has already done the "testing" of the original B2 CPS for you.....by properly reading B1 cam phaser timing positioning thru the original B2 CPS. Also, this is a good way of checking if the CPS got struck by a bent inward cam phaser timing tab that closed up the gap between the 2.

IMHO, always start off with diagnosis using methods that don't cost you anything......just some time then progress on from there.

These are 2-wire analog type sensors meaning they generate their own voltage\current from the cam phaser timing tabs crossing in front of them & they very rarely do fail.

The P0345 DTC comes from the PCM running synch tests during cranking (tests for synch of camshafts timing to crankshaft due to no oil press......cam phasers should be locked at 0* thus PCM will know where the cam phaser timing tabs...the middle tab of the 3 tab side of phaser timing plate....should be in rotation off CKP sensor) as the PCM isn't picking up the cam phaser 0* timing tab signal on B2 at the position it should be at.

The P0349 DTC comes after engine has started thus oil press is restored so cam phasers are unlocked & held in place by EOP thru VCT solenoids at same 0* thus PCM reruns synch tests again.....again the PCM isn't picking up the 0* timing tab signal on B2 cam phaser where it should be.

These 2 descriptions I typed above is what the DTC descriptions don't tell you......thus can cause some confusion in diagnosing these if the actual process that the PCM is going thru is not understood. Note also that the CPS doesn't have to be bad for these DTC's to occur.....PCM can see the actual 0* cam timing signal from the CPS.....just not where it is supposed to be.

The cam timing signaling is close enough for PCM to allow engine to start\run (a perk of VCT as there will be some cam timing fluctuation going on even when operation is good, thus there is a hard coded limit that determines successful operation from a failure) but engine power is off due to 1 camshaft being far enough out of phase w\ the other......or so the PCM thinks it is.

1 cam phaser tooth spacing is equal to approx 6*........

This also can have occurred after you picked up the car....thus the shop could be accurate in what they're saying. There are several possible considerations that can cause these 2 DTC's to occur......but the most common reasons are usually due to a mechanical issue.....not electrical.

Yeah, I know this isn't what some folks want to hear, but................just saying.

Since you've had cams installed & more specifically CC 127500 cams (which require phaser limiters installed in both cam phasers so both cam phasers have been "disturbed" further & also be removed from the timing chains to do this work then reinstalled.....especially if this was done w\ front engine timing cover still installed).....this is the 1st place IMHO where this issue should be looked into.

If you had something like Forscan or Torque app (the free stuff outside of Ford IDS), you can easily check the VCT\VCT2 cam timing for error positioning to verify if the cam timing is off before sending car back to shop (could use the results to bolster your claims).

My 2 cents.........

Hope this helps.

I just checked the sensors and wiring. Both sensors are working and the issue is isolated to the drivers side. I couldn’t see any issues with the wiring and connections either. I’m debating if I want to take the drivers side valve cover off to see if the timing marks line up. Then I can tell the shop without a doubt the timing is off…

 

[Candy10]

Really hard to fathom the shop dismissing these concerns. Whether or not the car was “running just fine” when they test drove it, it’s their work and the customer has obvious concerns. I’m petty, I’d be on a mission to destroy them through social media. That’s the way to do it these days.

 

[Badd GT]

 

[Badd GT]

View attachment 88027

Run file 12 is where I was with your cams

 

[Jake Schmale]

Run file 12 is where I was with your cams

I was expecting around 350, the car feels slower than it was when I dropped it off. I think they’ve timed it wrong. Probably by accident

 

[Jake Schmale]

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Run file 12 is where I was with your cams

I thought you did those dyno runs (apart from run #3) with the smaller 127400 cams. Do you have the corrected numbers by any chance? The last run after you installed CNC ported heads was particularly impressive.
I'm contemplating about whether to swap cams in the future and I have my eye on the 127400 SPR stage 1.

 

[Pentalab]

The car only has 78,000 miles(it’s an 07). Never had an issue with anything like that until now. I’m really starting to get frustrated, especially after paying $600 for a custom dyno tune. If I pull the valve cover off is there anyway to tell if the chain and sprocket were aligned correctly? A comp cams limiter kit was installed with the cam.

$600.00 just for a fubar 'tune', never mind the costs of the cams etc. Whatever tune they installed is probably not gonna be optimized for a cam that's not installed correctly. For all the money spent... I would be inclined to put a boot up somebody's ass.

 

[JC SSP]

If you paid with AMEX you can do a charge back and the merchant has to deal with the card company.

I still think you should take it back and document how things have transpired…

 

[Candy10]

I was expecting around 350, the car feels slower than it was when I dropped it off. I think they’ve timed it wrong. Probably by accident

You’re being too nice to them. It’s a bullshit job, plain and simple. Besides everything else, they only did one dyno pull and called it good? No adjustments? Here’s what I suspect; they installed the cams and ran it on the dyno to show you they “tuned it”, while likely not even changing the tune. Not tuning it after the swap would definitely cause a drop in power. It’s a shitty shop, grabs your nuts and call em on it. Sorry if that last bit was harsh