How to handle 4 dummies.(me)

redstangs9308gt

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I know nothing about how to get a better handling & gripping car. Lowering down is not NOT a option (yes wv sucks I know). Anyways what can I do to my suspenion to get it to handle better without lowering? Also I would like to do weight saving too what can I do to save some weight? A aluminum drive shaft is on the way after x mas.
 

07 Boss

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#1 suspension mod you can do is tires. I don't care how much HP you have, or whatever custom coil over suspension you got, your car will only perform as good as your tires.
 

07 Boss

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Then that's where I would start then. Do your research on what tires would be best for your driving and local road conditions. I'm from Vegas so I pretty much can get away with run Drag Radials or Summer tires all year round. I have had good success with Toyo R1R's and T1R's. Great tires except in the wet, ther R1R's were ridiculus but the T1R's were manageable.
Next I would look at firmer springs, and shocks to go with them. Stiffer sway bars of course, and getting rid of all of the soft rubber bushings in the stock 3 link suspension. Depending on how extreme you want to go with it, Watts link, K-member and front A-arms.
The list is endless and all depends on budget and how far you want to take it.
One word of friendly advice, I try to stick with one brand of suspension stuff. You may have success piecing together a great suspension with many different brands, but if you stick with one brand you can almost be assured that all of their components will work well together.
 

Marc s

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I run Toyo T1R's on the street and on the track when it's wet and Toyo 888's on the track when it's dry. I have had very good results with these tire on my Mustang and my Carrera. This is what I suggest.

1: Tires and wider wheels.
2: Koni shocks.
3: Sway bars. At a minimum, install a H&R rear bar to make the car more neutral.
4: Lower control arms.
 

Sinotis

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I know nothing about how to get a better handling & gripping car. Lowering down is not NOT a option (yes wv sucks I know). Anyways what can I do to my suspenion to get it to handle better without lowering? Also I would like to do weight saving too what can I do to save some weight? A aluminum drive shaft is on the way after x mas.

Is there a law in WV about lowering cars? What other laws do they have about modifying cars?
 

95ragtop

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If you are talking about weight reduction I have my vorteched down to 3425 with a 1/2 tank. All I have so far remove spare/jack, rear seat delete, and CR-1s. Once I install a lightweight d/s it should be around 3400.
 

white05gt

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I run Toyo T1R's on the street and on the track when it's wet and Toyo 888's on the track when it's dry. I have had very good results with these tire on my Mustang and my Carrera. This is what I suggest.

1: Tires and wider wheels.
2: Koni shocks.
3: Sway bars. At a minimum, install a H&R rear bar to make the car more neutral.
4: Lower control arms.


+1, that's exactly how I would do it if that's what your after.
 

Bizzyb0nes

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You could get away with steeda springs, its only an inch...Marc S' list is dead on

I am super happy with Sam Strano's adj sway bars, it made quite a noticable difference, and he's one heck of a guy. Worth the few $ more you might pay compared to american muscle (or someone like them) to get good detailed tech help.
 

redstangs9308gt

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No we don't have any laws on lowering cars. Some of the roads I travel are shit, and ground clearence is a plus.
 

explict

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Not trying to go totally against your decision but I live in Fort McMurray Alberta. I don't think the roads can get any worse than they do here (it was -51*C yesterday you can imagine the roads in the spring) And my car is lowered with the Eibach Pro kit. I have hit pot holes but never damaged my car. I have the GT500 front lip and it has very little scratches on it.
Other than that I think what 07 Boss said is pretty good, maybe a battery relocation to get that weight transfer better.
 

irishpwr46

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im in nyc and my car is lowered on roush springs and a cdc aggressive lip with no issues. and ask anyone from around here and they will tell you we dont have potholes. we have caverns that decide to show up whenever and wherever they please. also we dont have speedbumps, they just bury vw beetles up to their doorhandles instead and "forget" to paint them for a few weeks
 

Sam Strano

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You could get away with steeda springs, its only an inch...Marc S' list is dead on

I am super happy with Sam Strano's adj sway bars, it made quite a noticable difference, and he's one heck of a guy. Worth the few $ more you might pay compared to american muscle (or someone like them) to get good detailed tech help.

Would like to begin with my thanks for Tim passing his opinion on about my swaybars (I know he's already adjusted them too).

Being the internet, there is never a shortage of opinions on what to do. :) I have mine as well, but suggest you take the time to actually talk to folks who make these cars handle. ;)

I don't think you need to lower the car to make it handle very, very well. It doesn't hurt to get the Cg down... But there can be clearance issues the lower you go, and of course the ride gets firmer and firmer too.

My suggestion: Good shocks (not all are that good). I like Koni's, STR.T's @$409/set if you don't want adjustables, or Sports @ $780/set which are rebound adjustable. If you don't do Koni's for whatever reason, the next two options are Tokico D-spec and Bilstein. All brands I carry where as most shops only handle one or two--of course they wouldn't recommend anything they don't have.... :)

The shocks are responsible for how planted the car is. These cars have a tendency to hop around a lot in the rear, and feel like a much bigger car @ speed. And they don't really take a set the way I prefer... Finally the valving effects the roll and pitch rate. The slower the rate, the better the car feels. Ask anyone who's put better dampers on and they will tell you just how big the difference is.

The other thing I'd do, which becomes even more critical if you don't have lowering springs would be the swaybars. This is why I made my adjustable (and hollow, why drag around extra weight). Bars are torsion springs, they add wheel rate without the ride quality hit lowering springs give. Also the rear bar becomes relatively stiffer than the front (and being that both are adjustable you can tune the rate of each bar). This helps get rid of the inherent understeer these cars have with stock springs and bars. I use similar sizing others use because the combination of 35mm front, 22mm rear is well balanced, but every car/situation/person is a little different. Hence the biggest of my reasons for having both bars adjustable.

Those are my reasons for those parts....
 

Cookiemonster

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Other than driving technique, is there a way to help with lift off oversteer (snap oversteer)? In a fast decreasing radius turn I want to be able to come off the throtle slowly so i can get more bite in the front and be able to hit my apex. At my last autocross the back felt super unstable no mater how slow i came off the throtle. advice?
 

SoundGuyDave

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Other than driving technique, is there a way to help with lift off oversteer (snap oversteer)? In a fast decreasing radius turn I want to be able to come off the throtle slowly so i can get more bite in the front and be able to hit my apex. At my last autocross the back felt super unstable no mater how slow i came off the throtle. advice?

That's a tough one... Decreasing-radius corners are a bitch, any way you look a them. The "snap oversteer" is actually called "trailing throttle oversteer," (TTO) and is primarily caused by weight transfer. As you go into the corner balls-deep in the throttle, and start to lift, the weight loading of the tires shifts forward, accentuating the front grip, and diminishing the rear grip. You are further complicating this by having the car in a roll condition as well, where the weight is already transfered to the outside pair of tires to begin with. In a consant-radius corner, you can easily find a speed where the car "takes a set" on entry, rolled over on the outside, and then balance the car with the throttle, breathing in and out slightly on the throttle. What is actually happening there is that you are transferring weight back and forth between the front and rear, biasing the car towards understeer (more gas, the car pushes towards the outside of the corner: more rear grip than front grip) or understeer (less gas, the car drifts towards the inside of the corner: more front grip than rear grip). With a decreasing radius corner, the speed at which the car finds neutrality will be changing, to lower and lower speeds. This will force you to constantly be reducing throttle pressure, which will bias the car towards oversteer to begin with. You either have to be an "alien," like Sam, and be able to find the right rate of deceleration that still keeps the car neutral all the way through, or do like the rest of us, and just focus on corner-exit, giving up a tenth or so through the corner, in exchange for the maximum possible exit speed... Be patient going in, and focus on getting on the gas at exit as soon as possible.

You COULD tune the car to be tight, tight, tight, to fight the TTO, but then you would give up a lot on the rest of the course. On any sort of handling track, be it oval, road, rally, or autoX, dialing in the suspension is a game of compromise. IMO, if you focus on tuning to the fastest corner type on the track, you will probably be moving in the right direction. I would rather sacrifice on a 25mph corner than sacrifice on a 100mph corner. If you lose a tenth of a second at 25mph, you will give up 4' of distance in that period of time, and drop maybe 1.25mph on exit speed. If you lose a tenth of a second at 100mph, you'll give up 15' of distance and drop maybe 5mph on exit speed. If all other things are equal, you can guess who will hit the finish line first... For every corner, exit speed is the key to fast times. Maximizing the speed you carry into the following straight will result in a longer distance traveled for a given time period. This is the heart of the "in slow, out fast" concept. When you have multiple corners, like a chicane, you may actually be FASTER through the whole section if you "throw away" the first half, compromising the initial cornerto put yourself perfectly on-line for the part leading to the straight. If you focus on the first half, and find yourself at mid-track for entry into the back half, that means a tighter radius than necessary, which means either a lower speed through, or having to wait longer to get back on the gas. Either way, you've lost a bunch of momentum and time, and that's leading onto a straight. Imagine going through a chicane nose-to-tail with two identical cars. The first car through will execute the first corner perfectly, and compromise the second, the other car will "throw away" the first corner, but execute the second perfectly. What you will see is the two cars accordian as they transition through. At the braking zone for the first corner, the lead car will pull away slightly from the trailing car, which will not carry as much speed through the first corner. At entry to the second corner, though, the first car will turn in from mid-track, and the second, now a short distance behind, will turn in from the outside of the track. The first car has a smaller-radius corner, and will go more slowly at exit. The second car, with a wider-radius corner, will be able to carry more speed in, AND will be able to get on the gas sooner, and as a result, will get through the second half faster. If you take split times on both cars, starting at turn-in on the first corner, and track out on the second, they will be essentially identical, since each has "given up" one of the corners. The telling datum, however, is the exit speed from the second corner. If the second car exits the chicane 2mph faster, on the straight following the chicane, in only five seconds, the second car will travel 15' further than the first car.
 

Cookiemonster

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thats what I thought.. the corner at the last event was after an offset gate so its not like i could enter with speed and let it bleed off in the corner. I was on the gas till I hit some understeer and then I would back off so I could hit my apex and then it was a fight to not lose the car. I just need more experiance with that kind of corner. maybe a diffrent entry could have helped or diffrent car control in the corner..

heres a video of the event shot from a C5 corvette on v710s. the corner im talking about starts roughly around 1:05 after the green cone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-l1mhRPN6A
 

SoundGuyDave

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Maybe I'm missing something, but that corner to me looks like an excellent place to use trail-braking to help bias the front grip while still staying on the power (left-foot brake). That will get the rear just a touch loose and allow you to start the rotation a bit earlier, so that you can get back on the gas sooner. The trick is to be smooth modulating the brake and throttle simultaneously, to just slip the rear, rather than spin it. Essentially, you're going to bind up the car like a pretzel, and then let it explode out of the corner. Shoot for early rotation, an early turn-in aiming towards the INSIDE of the apex, and then immediately get on the power. The momentum of the car will drift you down into the corner at an angle to your "heading," and the early power will start to arc the car through the corner. Tricky to get right, but when you do, oh my, but you're moving at corner-exit. I'm not talking about a whopping huge power-slide, but a controlled four-wheel drift. If you screw up, however, the price is huge. With the early turn-in, if you don't get the rotation, you'll either undershoot the apex, and blow through the inside of the cones, or if you don't turn in deep enough you'll shoot right through the outside edge of the track. Done properly, though, you'll have the early acceleration advantage of a traditional late-apex line, combined with a higher entry speed of a geometric-apex line.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I want my car to handle like its on rails when I go into a curve.

Tires. Period. That's the place to start. Once you are able to overdrive the tires, and can properly assess what "quirks" your car is exhibiting with your driving style, then you can start replacing hardware.
 

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