I need help!!!

[dontlifttoshift]

My Hanchey/JRi struts also have that hole slotted.....never a problem. The Penske struts are the same way. I wouldn't sweat that slotted hole.

 

[sheizasosay]

My Hanchey/JRi struts also have that hole slotted.....never a problem. The Penske struts are the same way. I wouldn't sweat that slotted hole.

Um what the hell is this?: http://www.hancheyvehicletech.com/product/HVT-F1001-SI.html

 

[csamsh]

Um what the hell is this?: http://www.hancheyvehicletech.com/product/HVT-F1001-SI.html

Looks like something he's selling for NASA Spec Iron. Curious about the rears. Looks like AST 4100 inverted stuff that doesn't work too great??? Maybe the internals are different, who knows.

 

[NoTicket]

My Hanchey/JRi struts also have that hole slotted.....never a problem. The Penske struts are the same way. I wouldn't sweat that slotted hole.

Do you have true coilovers on the rear?

What's your experience with that?

 

[sheizasosay]

Looks like something he's selling for NASA Spec Iron. Curious about the rears. Looks like AST 4100 inverted stuff that doesn't work too great??? Maybe the internals are different, who knows.

I have no idea. Hell the front shaft looks like Bilstein, but we need some real info. I'm gonna call again on Monday.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Do you have true coilovers on the rear?

What's your experience with that?

No and none. I left the springs in the stock location with a threaded adjuster.

I don't have the spec iron parts. The rear shocks are right from JRi and the fronts are JRi inserts in HVT bodies. JRi struts should be available very soon but I wanted them right meow last June so JRi put that together for me.

 

[sheizasosay]

Cortex has JRi fronts and rear in coilover config. Dontlfttoshift, when you say JRi is gonna release struts do you mean for conventional springs?

 

[dontlifttoshift]

No they will be coilover style. Although I am sure it could be set up to run conventional springs if you wanted. The prototype parts were at sema in 2012.

 

[LS1EATINPONY]

If you search for them and you arent against them you can find Eibach multi pro R2s for around the $1700 range. They are fully adjustable. Thats just if you are willing to spend a couple hundred more

 

[Sam Strano]

Koni's have treated me pretty damned well. I've won a lot of stuff on/with them, much more so than anything else. And yes, I've got other shocks too... I had AST's on my own stuff too (and switched back to Koni @ Solo Nationals in 2010 too).

There is a lot of hype. And I'm not all anti high-end shocks. Hell I currently have MCS's on my Corvette. I've had AST's, I've used Ohlins and Penske's and KW's, and Bilstein's too. The fact of the matter is a Koni Sport will give you 90% or better of what the others will, and I don't care what anyone says, the proof is in the pudding and I've got plenty of results proving this to be the case. A few of my ESP Championships were with single Koni's over cars that weighed 150 to 300 pounds less wearing Triple adjustable shocks.

Mind you I had the first sets of S197 AST there were, long before others did. I now see that even the most die-hard of AST companies are branching out into other dampers, so maybe they've seen the light to offer other options. And I'd hope that AST has improved but just yesterday I was told something by someone with some on another car... that makes me dubious.

For me, if the Koni's aren't going to make you happy, and KW's aren't something you want.. it will be MCS. They don't break like others have. I've been extremely happy with the base valving, not had to send them back. And see tangible change in each setting.

Anyway, if you are into something higher end, MCS has dampers that are single, non-remote double, remote doubles, or remote triples and prices for singles start right around what KW Variant 3's are (but MCS come without springs or spanners at that price).

 

[sheizasosay]

Koni's have treated me pretty damned well. I've won a lot of stuff on/with them, much more so than anything else. And yes, I've got other shocks too... I had AST's on my own stuff too (and switched back to Koni @ Solo Nationals in 2010 too).

There is a lot of hype. And I'm not all anti high-end shocks. Hell I currently have MCS's on my Corvette. I've had AST's, I've used Ohlins and Penske's and KW's, and Bilstein's too. The fact of the matter is a Koni Sport will give you 90% or better of what the others will, and I don't care what anyone says, the proof is in the pudding and I've got plenty of results proving this to be the case. A few of my ESP Championships were with single Koni's over cars that weighed 150 to 300 pounds less wearing Triple adjustable shocks.

Mind you I had the first sets of S197 AST there were, long before others did. I now see that even the most die-hard of AST companies are branching out into other dampers, so maybe they've seen the light to offer other options. And I'd hope that AST has improved but just yesterday I was told something by someone with some on another car... that makes me dubious.

For me, if the Koni's aren't going to make you happy, and KW's aren't something you want.. it will be MCS. They don't break like others have. I've been extremely happy with the base valving, not had to send them back. And see tangible change in each setting.

Anyway, if you are into something higher end, MCS has dampers that are single, non-remote double, remote doubles, or remote triples and prices for singles start right around what KW Variant 3's are (but MCS come without springs or spanners at that price).

Have you seen the product in post 62?

 

[DILYSI Dave]

The fact of the matter is a Koni Sport will give you 90% or better of what the others will...

I think this is where the Koni shines - it's the 80/20 rule. It's a very affordable shock that is all most people will ever need. It's not the best, but it's by far the best value.

I've gone full retard on the dampers for the car I'm building (JRZ Triples) but even with that I know that at best I'm only eeking out that last nth of speed over the Konis that cost 1/10th as much.

 

[Apex50]

I really like my Koni's and Sam gets the credit for that decision. They work great for a daily driver / hpde car.

I think a telling perspective is that over two years of learning, and more money than I want to disclose, I brought my best lap time down by ten seconds at VIR. (3.2 mile track) I then handed the keys to Mike Skeen and he took another ten seconds off my best time on his third lap. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't pushing it right to the edge. Skill of the driver plays the biggest role in performance, which comes from seat time, and god given talent. I can only work on one of those, haha

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Skill of the driver plays the biggest role in performance, which comes from seat time,

That should be in huge letters on the top of every single thread in the corner carvers section.

 

[2013DIBGT]

A set of big hairy balls mixed with a dash of stupidity don't hurt either

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I really like my Koni's and Sam gets the credit for that decision. They work great for a daily driver / hpde car.

I think a telling perspective is that over two years of learning, and more money than I want to disclose, I brought my best lap time down by ten seconds at VIR. (3.2 mile track) I then handed the keys to Mike Skeen and he took another ten seconds off my best time on his third lap. And I'm pretty sure he wasn't pushing it right to the edge. Skill of the driver plays the biggest role in performance, which comes from seat time, and god given talent. I can only work on one of those, haha

Skeen's got skills, but yes - I can assure you that in a car that's not his he was running the course at 8/10ths.

Humility can be a bitch.

 

[sheizasosay]

Skeen's got skills, but yes - I can assure you that in a car that's not his he was running the course at 8/10ths.

Humility can be a bitch.

There is a varying skill level of instructors and they can all drive, but a handful of them are straight up scary fast. Scary might not be the best word. Probably depends more on the car. I been in cars turning much faster laps than another "fast" car, but a lot less dramatic. And your're right about that whole not driving 10/10th's on someone else's car. My first event with this instructor named JP driving.....I was about ready to crawl out my own goddamn window with the car moving. Of course my car was dangerous at the time. Underdamped, oversteer biased via springs, oversteer biased via roll steer, oversteer biased via rake and putting down over 430rwhp with about 400ft/lbs of torque available from 3000 rpm's on 275 tires with a wear rating of 380..... I also found my humility that day. It was the biproduct of "awe" in the instructor's abilities.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Man, I must have missed this thread. Jon, look what you've started.

For $1600 you can get Ground Control coilovers that come with Camber plates. Terry is great, and he can shit on Koni and Ground Control all he wants but in this area he is very full of shit in his analysis. I would avoid BC coilovers, every car I have driven using them has been awful.

Well, don't hold back, you should really express yourself more. (but at least we agree on the BCs, so there is that)

Look, I also raced for years on Konis, before there were any better choices under $5000, and they can work well for certain applications, and with certain drawbacks. Sam has had good luck with them in F Stock autocrossing with stock spring rates and tall ride heights, as have others. But beyond that they run into problems. One main failing is how they fail. They wear out fairly quickly (lose damping force), but since they are a twin tube design they usually don't leak externally when they have lost their damping (they leak between the concentric tubes), and people just keep driving and racing on them. A season of competition use is pretty good for a set of Konis, and sometimes less than that is what you will see. The problem is most people can't tell when they are shot... you usually have to put them on a dyno to see what the damping force really is. Slowly pushing down on a shock does NOT tell you the compression force, it only tells you the Nitrogen charge.

After you put a shock on a dyno the difference in performance between the two shocks becomes obvious. Monotubes are simply better suited for competition than twin tubes. The larger PISTONS (not valves, Jon) on a monotube have a lot of technical advantages, and you can read lots of articles about "Twin tubes vs monotubes", and I won't go into that here. Look it up.

http://youtu.be/vrUuESt2Q9I - start with this video, and there is a full series

Nobody in their right mind would argue that twin tubes are better than monotubes from a performance or technical standpoint. Many shock companies make both twin tubes and monotubes... you can get Sachs monotube 3 way race shocks that cost $10,000 a set and Sachs twin tube OEM fit shocks that cost $100 a set. In almost every case from a manufacturer that makes both types, their LOWEST cost shocks are twin tubes and as you start stepping up the quality/performance ladder they VERY QUICKLY turn into monotubes.

KONI IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THIS

Virtually 100% of pro level racing is done with monotube shocks. Again, this isn't my opinion, this is a fact that anyone can observe for themselves at any pro race. Ask about twin tubes in a pro race paddock and you will get some odd stares. It took folks like Vorshlag, some other companies using Bilstein parts, and some other shops to help push the pro level race monotube shock technology down into the single adjustable coilover market, that more people could afford. This sub $3000 monotube adjustable market did not exist in the early 2000s, but now it does. There ARE better choices for monotubes, but the S197 market both has a lot of "heritage products" (from the Fox/SN95 era) and manufacturers of more advanced products have been hesitant to come into this HUGELY saturated market because of that. (aka: why there isn't a PSS style Bilstein for any Mustangs)

Sam has some valid points on the first run of AST 4100s, too, but these observations are years out of date, and I keep pointing out every time he reiterates the same story. He used some of the very earliest AST 4100s, which had an inverted rear shock and very limited stroke. They bottomed out easily and caused all sorts of handling problems. There were adjustment valve failures left and right, too. I agree with Sam - the S197 4100s weren't very good back then (2009-10). We abandoned this design VERY quickly here at Vorshlag as well.

I used a set of early production S197 4100s just like Sams (top shock above), but they only stayed on my car for 2 months, starting in early 2011, on my 2011 GT. We quickly realized that the rears that AST spec'd had way too little stroke, especially at a lowered ride height. We then pulled the rears off and found another non-inverted AST shock they made (which we adapted to the S197) that worked 100 times better (bottom of picture above). It had nearly 2" more stroke, and the rebound knob could be accessed from inside the trunk. We contacted the handful of customers Vorshlag had sold these early 4100s to and worked with them to get shorter housings or all new rear shocks. From that point on we refused to use the inverted rear design and had a special version made for our use.

We also had these "fixed" 4100 ASTs we used revalved, added the digressive pistons, and then revalved again. The adjustable front swaybar brackets were a problem waiting to happen, so that went away and a fixed front bracket was added. This all came together in a redesign that was called the AST 4150, which worked very well and we have a lot of happy customers on these. As many issues as people had with the 4100s, the 4150s seemed to have addressed them ALL. Unfortunately the factory or importer quit importing them sometime in 2012 and the supply dried up, right as they were getting really good.

Unfortunately, as I was told earlier this week, AST-USA/HVT is no longer importing AST shocks, so there is no source for the now more mature and higher quality 4150s, for any car. Its a shame, but oh well. They were a great monotube single adjustable for $2200, and there's nothing in that price range that compares. Someday another importer might work with AST Holland to get these back in the states, but who can read the future?

To help fill this gap we started selling MCS monotube singles, doubles and remotes. The TT1 costs about $650 more than the AST singles, for the S197, when you include the ride height adjusters needed. What can I say: it is what it is - we don't control the price. The performance is as good and the strength is better, and we've had a lot of happy customers.

On the low end I really can't recommend ground controls enough. They are not as good as a nice $3000 set of AST 4150 + hyperco springs or MCS or Moton dampers and Vorshlag plates, but every car I have been in and driven with them has been quite good.

The GC stuff is a coilover, so you get a shortened housing and real height adjustment, but it is still a Koni twin tube insert. So there are those limitations once again.

The biggest problem with Koni OEM style (non-coilovers) for the S197 is the strut body is too long up front, so with anything other than OEM length springs they are bumpstop killers. Once again the old adage applies: There is no free lunch. You cannot expect to buy $600-750 Konis and slap 1.5" to 2" shorter springs on them (and the OEM lowering springs are all still very soft) and get the same performance and damping and STROKE as a proper coilover strut, with a shortened body and more stroke at a lower ride height. Not even considering the twin tube limitations.

So yes, we DO recommend the Bilstein INVERTED and non-adjustable MONOTUBE strut and rear shock combo for those on a tight budget. We sell the shocks for $806, which is a good price. Again, they aren't adjustable like the Konis, but they ARE strut shorter bodies (by 1.25") so you gain a lot more usable bump travel/stroke at these lower ride heights. That's one of the main reasons we sell them, and at $1499 all-in (Vorshlag camber plates, your choice of lowering springs - even more than we list on our website, plus the Bilsteins) and we feel it is a good compromise for street and dual purpose cars.

But if you plan on doing any competition (autocross/track) and want to use bigger tires or R compounds, you aren't going to stick with that set-up forever. You'll eventually want to move to coilovers, simply to go faster - while keeping a good ride, the most durability, the largest adjustment range, and the highest quality.

I suspect the proper question isn't what's the absolute best, but rather, what setup gets you the best handling capability within your budget.

The Ground Control coilover kit gets you the dampers, springs, and camber/caster plates and costs $1600.

The Vorshlag MCS TT1 coilover setup (ASTs are no longer on their site) gets you just the dampers. You have to add springs and camber/caster plates to get an equivalent kit. The dampers alone are $2650. After adding the camber/caster plates, springs, and modified shock mounts ($20), you're looking at another $850, so that setup will set you back a total of $3400.

Yes, those are indeed the costs. No denying it: the MCS singles are pricey, and we all know it. Losing the $650 cheaper AST 4150 was a real kick in the nuts - but its gone from the USA for now. Unobtanium.

Look, if you are willing to deal with the compromises and shortcomings, the GC Koni coilover setup can work, and you can dial in enough compression (with a custom revalve) to make them even work with the stiffer spring rates needed to control the pitch/dive/heave of the front heavy Mustang. BUT. There's always a downside when you go the cheaper route. They are kind of disposable shocks... they are painful to revalve, rebuild, re-charge with nitrogen. They are likely going to ride like ass compared to a monotube with the same spring rates. That's another limitation of twin tubes - they simply cannot react as quickly to small damper movements or low velocities like a monotube. Much more prone to fluid cavitation, the don't dissipate heat as well, and on and on and on.

The question isn't whether the MCS coilovers are better than Ground Control's Konis. They almost certainly are. For the price difference, they'd better be! No, the question is whether or not the handling improvement from the MCS relative to the Konis exceeds the improvement you'd get by putting the $1800 difference into other suspension bits. I suspect the answer to that is easily "no".

Well... it depends. There are other suspension parts you could get with that $1800, that would help, for sure. But I don't think to the same degree as proper monotube adjustable coilovers. I've posted this before, but the two biggest mods to track time are the following:

1. Tire upgrades - both size, compound and the wheels attached. Number one on any list.

2. Damper/spring upgrades. This is second only to tires. By upgraded springs I mean 200-300% stiffer than stock up front, not the 10-40% stiffer of lowering springs.

After that the performance upgrades start to diminish GREATLY. Its hard to put a quantitative value on those two items, but I'd say those two mods alone are worth approximately 80% of all of the performance upgrades you could do to a car for track or autocross use. As in lap time drops.

So yes, while the GC Konis do get possibly more stroke at the lowered ride height, and they are adjustable, they won't perform like the monotubes, won't have the damping adjustment range of something like the AST or MCS, and won't have the ride of either of those at the same spring rates. The choice is yours.

Vorshlag recommends the bilsteins because they are monotube, and the koni's or GC are twin tube. How much will this really affect my handling?

Well, we recommend the StreetPro length Bilsteins because they are better than the Koni OEM twin tube adjustables in THREE ways:

1. They are monotube, which i a big reason.
2. They are SHORTER THAN STOCK strut bodies, so they have more usable bump travel at a lowered ride height
3. The struts are also inverted.
4. The one downside is: they are not adjustable, but the three items above make up for that.

Monotube vs. Twin Tube is as much a religious argument as Whiteline versus Fays2.

Mmmm.... no, not really, Dave. Please bear with me here. The Fays2 and Whiteline Watts are more similar in performance and quality and function than a twin tube vs a monotube are in the same aspects. That isn't a "religious" or opinion based call like the Watts link choice, but more of a technical superiority, quality, reliability and simply cost difference.

Monotube adjustables will always cost more than twin tube adjustables (ignoring the Chinese monotube stuff, of course. BC, etc). They cost more to build, simple as that. But you get what you pay for.

While I philosophically like a monotube from an engineering point of view (larger piston, better resolution, etc), in the price point that you are talking, I prefer the Koni yellow because of the adjustability. The Bilstein is a fine shock, but given a theoretically superior nonadjustable versus a theoretically inferior adjustable, I'll take the opportunity to adjust.

Well, for a Stock classed autocross car maybe that holds, but for anyone dialing up the performance/grip/power level outside of that very limited mod autocross class, I think the monotube wins, hands down. Yes, it costs more than a twin tube - nobody will deny the cost difference. But the performance difference is just as big as the price difference, when comparing feature for feature, in my experience. And in virtually all levels of competition, you see monotubes instead of twin tubes, since about the 1990s and on.

For the record, I am not going to be performing any shock and spring modifications until I am sure I am okay dropping my car about 2 inches, because I intend to buy the MCS coilover system they offer.

But you would have to be insane to buy their bilstein setup over ground controls when what you are looking for is the best handling $1500 can buy. It is not worth the sacrifice in spring rate, valving, and adjustability that you give up just so you can say "monotube" when people ask what shocks you have.

Insane? Come on...

Look, for a 2" drop neither the Bilstein or Koni OEM style strut/shock combo is what you want. That much drop requires a substantially shortened coilover housing, to get any usable stroke. The Stance crowd are bumpstop riders, but that doesn't work for performance driving.

Then when you are willing to look at the GC coilover vs the StreetPro, which are wildly different offerings, you need to ask: is it worth the lack of longevity, reliability, and other twin tube limitations? I don't know that answer - everyone has different priorities. The question is - what's the difference 2 or 3 years form now? One will need to be rebuilt (probably more than once), and I will leave that up to you to guess which that will be.

Good monotube dampers start at over $2000. Good twin tubes start at $750.

Well... I think you might be comparing apples and oranges here, just a little. Twin tube coilovers start at $1600 (the GCs mentioned - I don't know the bare shock-only breakdown), and good monotube single adjustables start at $2200 (the formerly imported AST 4150). Right now there's a gap in the market with the ASTs being gone, so you have to jump up to the $2650 MCS (really $2850 with rear ride height adjusters). That's a big gap, we know...

I contemplated getting the MCS Coilovers for a few minutes also but eventually couldn't get past their use of an oblong front strut mounting hole in the top position. IMO it seems like an open door for issues with the strut slipping around and migrating out of proper position over time, especially under heavy side loads from an already heavy car.

I'm also not a fan of giant slotted strut holes, and on my Moton Club Sport doubles we actually filled in the slot with steel and welded the brackets back up. Those slotted holes can come loose on certain spindle designs (but not all) with enough side load applied.

And MCS is doing some of the same things on their current line-up (they ran Moton for 12 years so there is some carryover).

That's the MCS TT1 single for the FT86 chassis, front strut. Big slotted hole. But...

MCS makes these "slugs" that are precision machined to fill that gap, and they come in some kits (like the FT86). You can clock it in either way, to get more camber at the strut or less. But cambering in at the bracket like this costs you inboard wheel room, so we usually push the slot all the way out to get the most room there, and get camber at the top mount (camber plate). They can supply these slot filling "slugs" for any of their designs. I've seen AST 5200s used in Grand Am with these same style slugs. Its pretty common, actually.

I've always been a fan of Bilstien dampers and was pretty disappointed that they have not yet entered the coilover market for the Mustangs other wise I would have gone that route myself. Again, IMO I think their Spring /Shock combo would be too soft for any competitive usage.

I agree, and this is something we have asked Bilstein Motorsport to make - a PSS type 36mm piston inverted coilover. The S197 market is begging for a $2000-2500 monotube coilover solution with quality parts like this. But...

I've autocrossed on koni yellows and now run ast4150s. Only reason I went to the AST4150s is cause I was getting into the bumpstops more than I'd like while using the koni yellows with basic lowering springs. Both have worked very well for me when autocrossing, giving plenty of adjustment to get the transitional responsiveness feeling right.

Driving to and from events the ASTs ride just as well as the konis did on lowering springs even though my front spring rate went from 200lb/in to 450lb/in and the rear up to 225lb from 175. The only time I can easily notice the firmer springs is at lower speeds like in a parking lot.

That's saying a lot... you went up in spring rate by a factor of 2.5 but the ride is the same on the monotubes vs the twin tubes. You are saying what a lot of people find out when they make this switch...

Anyway, that's a long enough post for tonight. Just sold our 2013 GT, and the buyer who flew in from across the country is sticking around because he wants us to install some Bilsteins and camber plates, to go along with the P springs (unprompted by me - he had made this decision weeks ago), so we are busy at work.

Cheers!

 

[FR500GT]

Gimme

 

[NoTicket]

Terry,

Your analysis is undeniable. A good monotube is better than a good twin tube. However, it is not very expensive to rebuild Konis. There are shops everywhere that will do it since they are so popular.

Of course most motorcycle shops are properly set up to rebuild most monotubes... So again it is not that expensive.

Anywho... Aside from the hyperbole I still stand by what I said. With the stipulation that your budget for springs and shocks is $1600 and your primary concern is handling, the Ground Controls are the way to go.

Of course if you want the best you look at high end stuff like Moton, MCS, Ohlins, Penske, or JRi.