Livernois cam phaser lockouts

[Turbotungsten]

I just purchased a set of livernois cam phaser lockouts, and I guess I should have done a little more research. Do these just get locked in at max retard or max advance? What is the best setting for my single turbo 298 stroker?​

 

[ulev1st]

It depends on your engine and cam choice. Mine are set so the cam sits at 11 degrees advance.

 

[ChevyKiller]

I strongly suggest anyone interested in these call and talk to Livernois about them. Specifically because they come either completely locked out or with 10º advance.

They will tell you that if you plan on some decent power you really should go with the full lockout. During testing they found at big boost levels, the timing tends to really jump around and can be problematic. They strongly suggest if you intend to run bigger boost levels, to get them fully locked out. Something to think abut IMO.

Yes, I have them and they are full lock-out per their recommendation.

 

[Turbotungsten]

Did you degree your cams in, or is it needed?

 

[94tbird]

i went with the Boss 330 Adjsutable cam gears. we have the VCT locked out completely

 

[cekim]

Yes, I have them and they are full lock-out per their recommendation.

So, does that mean you are running with 15deg of advance? As I understand it that is where the phasers sit without any oil pressure to move them...

Unless I have that wrong?

 

[ChevyKiller]

I believe you are correct.

 

[cekim]

I believe you are correct.

Thanks, still working through my cam setup, I have an adjustable (not variable), but trying to decide where to "start"...

Everything I have come across so far indicates that its not a terrible idea to retard from there for those car that want to be able to drive on the street, but are willing to give a little on the street for the track...

I had been assuming I would start at 0 if not back a tooth and add advance as required... I guess the dyno will answer that question - unless someone already has some data for a fixed cam setup comparing -15 -> +15 for 650HP+ setups (that they would be willing to share).

Of course none of that matters if I don't ever get the !@#$ing thing together (my fault now... )

 

[ChevyKiller]

Call Mike at livernois. They have some good data from the black car with the F1. It was because of that car they came out with these. They have all the data you need. I talked to them awhile before I was convinced to get them locked out.

 

[cekim]

Call Mike at livernois. They have some good data from the black car with the F1. It was because of that car they came out with these. They have all the data you need. I talked to them awhile before I was convinced to get them locked out.

Yeah, I really hemmed and hawed for a while, but the more I read, the more concerned I got about how it was going to behave on the top-end and how little "benefit" there was to the variable timing...

The only pros I could come up with were:
1. not having to remove valve covers during tuning
2. not having to figure out before hand which tooth to put the cam gear on (other than stock).

Not a real powerful endorsement for VVT given the "risk"...

I've got a message in to Mike to see what he says already. I figured he doesn't want me blowing up his hard work ;-)

 

[SC boss]

Yeah, I really hemmed and hawed for a while, but the more I read, the more concerned I got about how it was going to behave on the top-end and how little "benefit" there was to the variable timing...

The only pros I could come up with were:
1. not having to remove valve covers during tuning
2. not having to figure out before hand which tooth to put the cam gear on (other than stock).

Not a real powerful endorsement for VVT given the "risk"...

I've got a message in to Mike to see what he says already. I figured he doesn't want me blowing up his hard work ;-)

Keep us up to date on what you hear and experience, Larry should be getting back soon from his honeymoon/wedding and I got to get this car back out on the prowl for this summer!! I silently follow and learn from you guys and hopefully I can get a tough strong motor put together with the right parts and Larry's building experience.

Thanks, Shawn

 

[cekim]

Keep us up to date on what you hear and experience, Larry should be getting back soon from his honeymoon/wedding and I got to get this car back out on the prowl for this summer!! I silently follow and learn from you guys and hopefully I can get a tough strong motor put together with the right parts and Larry's building experience.

Stock tooth it is with -15 -> 0 adjustment that gives me a range of 15 deg of retard to 0 deg of retard with my adjustable setup... NOT relative to stock timing, this is absolute -15->0. We'll let the dyno and "driveability" decide where in there...

Keep in mind this setup is more geared towards the track and higher power. Going for 800RWHP+ at some point this year, though most of the time it will likely be dialed back so I can use the nice quiet and smooth true-trac rather than the noisy, bumpy, twitchy, but damn does it handle the power - locker... That and traction/launching will take some tuning before it makes any sense to engage the warp engine...

 

[ChevyKiller]

I don't know if I'm just used to it or not, but I really don't notice the locker back there on the street unless I'm turning in reverse or take a turn sharp or at speed. It was nowhere near as noticeable as I was expecting.

 

[cekim]

I don't know if I'm just used to it or not, but I really don't notice the locker back there on the street unless I'm turning in reverse or take a turn sharp or at speed. It was nowhere near as noticeable as I was expecting.

I don't know and would not be surprised if the 8.8 locker is more civilized. Looking at the true-trac, they are very different animals between the 9 and the 8.8 so it would not be surprising if the 9 locker was different as well...

Any "maneuvering" around gets you loud clunks and pops. When you even think about doing anything other than coasting in a turn, you get a wiggle in the rear-end. If you stiffen up the suspension enough, instead of a disturbing wet noodle effect back there (movement of the chassis relative to the rear), you get the tires moving around on the pavement...

Even on the highway on a "gentle turn", if you gun it at the wrong time, it locks up and the rear-end squirts out the side (I am sure the traffic around me thinks I am drunk or stupid)... Forget powering out of an on ramp unless you plan on drifting your merge - its tire smoke or traction, nothing in between...

The power handling and shooting you straight down the track is wonderful - but now that I can swap it in and out without too much trouble, I plan to use the locker when I need it and otherwise keep the true-trac for anything less than 650RWHP...

For "events" where winning is more important than ET I will likely keep the true-trac in there. At some point this summer I am going to go all out and see how far I can push it. For that, the locker goes back in...

 

[canuck power]

I must have clicked on the wrong thread...
I meant to click on lockout info

 

[cekim]

EDIT: deleted - detriot locker discussion moved over to the other thread...

 

[marcspaz]

Now I am a bit confused...I know its easy to do, but...

I thought I read or heard the stock VCT systems (and heads in general) are good for some retarded amount of FI power like 800 or 900 bhp. Unless you are trying to build a high CFM NA car, you shouldn't need to replace anything. Is that not right?

Also, unless your car is going to live at WOT 99.9% of the time, doesn't the VCT help you produce more power and torque under more common daily driving conditions through the RPM range?

 

[cekim]

Now I am a bit confused...I know its easy to do, but...

I thought I read or heard the stock VCT systems (and heads in general) are good for some retarded amount of FI power like 800 or 900 bhp. Unless you are trying to build a high CFM NA car, you shouldn't need to replace anything. Is that not right?

The issue is "stability", particularly at high RPMs. livernois is not the only one to comment on erratic behavior of the phasers under extreme conditions. There is little to no margin for error at 7k RPM, if they start getting out of sync, your top end is fubar...

I have not heard of a lot of failures (yet), but the cost benefit of this system for "stupid" levels of HP is what is in question. They are primarily there as an emissions control device - they replace the function of an EGR valve... They provide nominal increase in HP - see below your next question for more on that...

Also, unless your car is going to live at WOT 99.9% of the time, doesn't the VCT help you produce more power and torque under more common daily driving conditions through the RPM range?

This car spends at least 50% (more like 90% last year) of its time either driving to the track or at the track. That's why I put the disclaimer on my report back as to the desired timing. I am willing to sacrifice some bottom end and "driveability" for top-end power because:
1. I have the Vert if I want twin screw bottom end grunt
2. I will still have more torque at the bottom of this setup than the street can hold if all goes as planned...

Yes, retarding/fixing the cam forces you to trade top for bottom or vice versa. That is why they have two versions - one for a "street" car and one for a "track" car.

 

[ChevyKiller]

Well explained. You have to consider this is a $50 mod. You also have to consider it falls right along with other things that 'you know if you should consider it'. I never thought twice about until I wanted to see over 22 psi.

 

[marcspaz]

ok, I can see the reasoning behind that...I'm sure stability of the VCT becomes even more of an issue as the miles rack up too...