Minimalist Handling/Lowering Set Up?

[spiral281]

I was wondering what people who love handling would recommend...will have to run the setup for at least 2 years from date of purchase until i can afford what I want...needs to be good for the money, and keep the car aligned properly (maybe with a few adjustable bits as I like to autox occasionally). I was thinking:
H&R Race springs (had good luck with these on another car)
Tokico DSpecs
some sort of adj panhard rod
camber adj for the front
lca reloc. brackets
anything i missed or that would come highly recommended....needs to be affordable, or can't do without...

 

[Vapour Trails]

First question: Do you want linear or progressive rate springs? Don't buy springs because of a name or drop. I went with the steeda sport springs because they have a moderate drop and a linear rate. I wanted a practical setup that was good for DD and autocrossing, while not fucking up suspension geometry that much (like the big drop springs do). Progressive rate springs tend to work the shocks harder and the shocks can have difficulty controlling them.

As for relocation brackets, you don't need them. For handling the angle of the LCA isn't a very big deal. If you are cost cutting this is the perfect thing to omit.

Really all you need is springs, shocks/struts and a panhard and you should be able to acheive that for about 1G. Only thing I would add if you can afford it is a upgraded UCA. Every replaces the LCA on these cars when they should be doing the upper.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

D-specs, a set of springs, and camber plates will come pretty close to the cost of a set of coil-overs from Ground-control.com. I wish I had known about them when I did my setup! Changing spring rates is cheaper, you get (arguably) better dampers, and the ride height is continuously variable. Also, when you "get what you want," you won't be throwing the parts away, or selling them used at a substantial loss.

Other than that, for pure handling, I would second the UCA, but do the LCAs at the same time.

What is your eventual target? The suspension needs to function as a system, but there may be good choices on where to spend real money, and where to go cheap just to hit the target budget...

 

[spiral281]

i just want something to get by for about 2 years or so while its still daily driven...i do like the progressive rate springs, as ive used both, and the progressive keep the tire on the road when its crappy...

i have also recently considered steeda competition springs...i dont care much about the ride quality, i have had a 240sx on coilovers, and a honda accord on h&r race springs that sat 4 inches off the ground with illumina's...

just want best handling for cheap for now until i can afford a better set up...i do want the adj camber for when i go autox the few times i do go, and i know i need a panhard bar...is che a good brand, what would be better, rod ends or poly bushings...and would an adj upper be all i need if i get a start that i can build from?

not worried about coil overs as i will never adjust them...didnt on my 240...will be trying nitto nto5's at the end of the summer if the reviews are favorable by then...

so now: D specs, steeda comp or h&r or what might go well?, was looking at maximum motorsports castor/camber or qa1(what do u know about their plates? they are cheaper, but is there a reason for it?), what adj. upper?, che or steeda adj panhard...

all in all point will be best bang for the buck, but as little as possible with a little adjustability...and i will check out the ground control coilover anyway, as i may not mind the extra adjustment...but i dont know what would be the optimal ride height either...i might set it too low for looks and screw the handling....

will want a watts link...but that will have to wait...want koni's too, but that will have to wait, i like griggs coilovers honestly...later will like to add k-member and tube a arms and maybe match some more parts to the rear like steeda upper, lower, and watts, but like a said later...now i just want the car to sit flatter at the autox and to not rock back on take off and lean so far forward on stopping as well

 

[spiral281]

and i will be going to 275/40/18 all around...not fond of the staggered tire set up...

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Just to add fuel to the fire... the GC coil-overs use Koni dampers, so that's at least something you won't have to buy twice!

A few reasons that I strongly suggest going with coil-overs:

1) Springs are CHEAP!!! If you want to play around with different rates, it's not going to break the bank to do it.
2) Corner-weighting: even if you never are going to adjust your ride-height, you can get a pretty good improvement in handling by adjusting the corner-balance, making small adjustments in the spring perch until your cross-weights (LF-RR and RF-LR) are even.
3) Unless you're going to do the Griggs GR40 suspension setup, the coil-overs form the heart of all of the other kits: Steeda, Roush, Maximum Motorsports, etc.
4) Buy once, cry once. Yeah, it hurts when you write that check, but you only do it once, and that's a cheaper solution long-term.

Rear suspension: The LCA bushings have a durometer similar to that of a pencil eraser, and are simple stamped-steel pieces. The UCA isn't bad from the factory, but could be the weak link if you've done the rest of the suspension. The main reason that people do the upper is to get an adjustable piece somewhere in the rear to re-set pinion angle after lowering, which can be done with adjustable lowers. The PHB is a good bet, primarily for the adjustment after lowering to center the axle under the chassis, but also to drop some weight.

Poly bushings are quiet, rod ends are loud, and it all depends on what your tolerance is for transmitted noise inside the car. Based on your previous cars, I would go with rod ends!


Your mileage may vary, this is just my two cents, batteries not included, etc...

 

[SD07GT]

Just to add fuel to the fire... the GC coil-overs use Koni dampers, so that's at least something you won't have to buy twice!

A few reasons that I strongly suggest going with coil-overs:

1) Springs are CHEAP!!! If you want to play around with different rates, it's not going to break the bank to do it.
2) Corner-weighting: even if you never are going to adjust your ride-height, you can get a pretty good improvement in handling by adjusting the corner-balance, making small adjustments in the spring perch until your cross-weights (LF-RR and RF-LR) are even.
3) Unless you're going to do the Griggs GR40 suspension setup, the coil-overs form the heart of all of the other kits: Steeda, Roush, Maximum Motorsports, etc.
4) Buy once, cry once. Yeah, it hurts when you write that check, but you only do it once, and that's a cheaper solution long-term.

Rear suspension: The LCA bushings have a durometer similar to that of a pencil eraser, and are simple stamped-steel pieces. The UCA isn't bad from the factory, but could be the weak link if you've done the rest of the suspension. The main reason that people do the upper is to get an adjustable piece somewhere in the rear to re-set pinion angle after lowering, which can be done with adjustable lowers. The PHB is a good bet, primarily for the adjustment after lowering to center the axle under the chassis, but also to drop some weight.

Poly bushings are quiet, rod ends are loud, and it all depends on what your tolerance is for transmitted noise inside the car. Based on your previous cars, I would go with rod ends!


Your mileage may vary, this is just my two cents, batteries not included, etc...

From my understanding if you are still using the OEM drive shaft then an UCA is really a waste if you are trying to reset for your pinion angle due to the fact that it is a CV joint now , and has a huge range of motion and wont ware out like a u-joint ...thats why pinion angle was important to preserve the u-joint from failing , and also of course if your running slicks or et's to get a better down bite at -2 or -3 a UCA is needed ?

 

[SD07GT]

I had the Steeda comp springs and they worked well , but the car sat higher in the front then the rear ....lowered the front 3/4 or an inch and the back between 1 1/4 @ 1 1/2 and yes all the OEM parts were used ...there have been some other people who have had this happen to them ... I think it may have something to do with the OEM stock isolators because I have a set from the 05 and there really thin and softer than the 07 and up and they are much taller or thicker just like the gt500 upper mount isolators ... The H@r race springs are very good for auto cross or track days but the d/d ride sucks because of the very stiff rates . The use of a bigger rear sway bar will dramatically help you with the under steer that is present with the s197 . The biggest problem you will have to decide with is the NVH rod ends, Polly or a combo of both , as you can see my list of spring choises you have to deside between your roll center and lowering you center of gravity , I do have the Steeda sports wich over all a great choice but The Eibach pro kit over all suites my auto cross and D/D better (my .2$)

List of my suspension parts

FRONT :

Steeda sport springs ...1' front 1 1/4 rear on the nose / also used Steeda comp springs, Eibach pro kit , H@R race springs !
Tokico D-specs
Steeda Heavy duty upper strut mounts ......had J@m got one failure and NVH
Steeda sway bar (3) position adustability
with steeda sway bar braces

Rear:

Steeda billet LCA polly/rod end combo
Steeda pan hard brace
Steeda rear sway bar 7/8 with billet end links
Steeda pahhard bar polly ...........................had J@M to noisy after a while for D/D NVH ...good for track

overall hard to Beat Steeda parts for a D/D and track/auto cross car !

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Mine's not a daily driver, so your mileage may vary, but here's what I have on the car right now:

Front:

D-Spec shocks with BMR springs (Ground Control setup later this year)
BMR front swaybar (adjustable)
Steeda Bump-steer rod ends
Maximum Motorsports Camber-Caster plate
Steeda front control arm bushing inserts
Steeda tubular radiator support crossmember
BMR A-arm brace

Rear:
D-Specs/BMR springs (see Ground-Control note above)
BMR rear swaybar with billet links
BMR poly upper control arm (adjustable)
Maximum Motorsports rod/rod adjustable lower control arms
Maximum Motorsports rod/rod adjustable Panhard bar

Yes, NVH is an issue, but I only drive the car on the street when heading to/from the track, so not that big of a deal. Besides, the long-tubes and offroad H drown out the suspension noise anyway!

 

[DusterRT]

I've got the GC coilover kit and I've been chomping at the bit to get 'em on but I've wanted to get a couple autocrosses and a track day in on the stock suspension before I go and change everything so I can't say anything other than "They look nice."

I went with these for a variety of reasons; I didn't want to lower the car too much since it's a DD, I wanted the ability to corner weight the car, the ability to change spring rates fairly economically, and from what I see I should expect to drop 20-30# over a conventional spring/strut setup. Lifetime warranty is also a plus, and while the struts are Koni (imported from..Germany? I forget!), the Eibach springs and just about everything else is US-made.

If you were looking at higher end struts like Bilstein or Koni, then yes the cost gets close once you add camber plates and springs, but if you're going for less expensive units like the D-specs the difference starts to approach $400-500 so I wouldn't call it a minimalist setup..more like mid-range.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

The GC setup runs $1600 for struts, springs, and a CC plate...

D-Specs: $550.00
Springs: H&R Super Sport or Competition, Steeda Ultralight: $249.00
CC plate: $320 (Maximum Motorsports)

One the one hand, you're right, the GC setup is around $480 more expensive, but if you factor in the "true cost" of doing the suspension, the $1100 you spent so far becomes worth around $500 resold used, for a loss of $600. If you add that $600 from the cost of the GC kit, for when you do it over again, then you're really spending $2200. At that point, $1600, for the same thing becomes a bargain. That also obviously doesn't factor in the cost of labor or alignments, either, which would further extend the cost differential.

In isolation, $500 is a bunch of money. In context, though, that $500 isn't much when you figure it buys you MUCH better struts, AND gets you on the right path right up front...

YMMV.

 

[RKW]

For a true minimalist approach try this:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=644/CA=96

Retain your stock struts/shocks and modify the spring perch on the fronts. This will allow you to use an 8 inch spring up front. Also get some camber bolts and an adjustable PHB.

Down the road you can add the caster/camber plates and Koni shocks/struts and other bits that come with the full kit if you want (while retaining the springs you already bought).

Call them and speak to Jay and explain what you want to do and he will give you very specific recommendations.

Good Luck

 

[spiral281]

i could try that when i find out what my actual budget is...btw how long would the stock shocks last with that, or should i just call to find out? the only benefit i would really have is corner weighting, which i dont know who could do that around here (around baton rouge, la)...

found out qa1 has some camber plates, would those be good enough? or should i just go with maximum motorsports plates...

i want a rod/rod panhard bar possibly CHE, and thinking rod/rod lca with reloc brackets...

 

[DusterRT]

Find some local roundy-round guys and see if they'll rent their scales to you. Odd's are they've dropped a grand or two on them so of they can make a few bucks off them they'll probably be happy to do so..or find out who built and/or set up their cars and have them do it for you.

If you're set on CHE products you may want to get them now, last I heard they were getting out of the control arm business..

 

[spiral281]

i literally cannot do anything right now...no overtime, and a trip tomorrow...will see in the next month or two...just trying to do some research before hand...and it doesnt have to be che, was just considering them...may use bbr parts or steeda or whoever...just something durable with rod end/rod end for lca and phr...

 

[SoundGuyDave]

just something durable with rod end/rod end for lca and phr...

Maximum Motorsports...

 

[RKW]

...btw how long would the stock shocks last with that,

A long time. Newtakeoff shocks/struts are dirt cheap. Maybe try and find some GT500 takeoffs.

or should i just call to find out?

Yes

the only benefit i would really have is corner weighting

In addition to custom spring rates, the real benefit of the GC setup is that it adjusts from stock ride height to -2 inches. Many people find that they have almost no suspension travel left after installing lowering springs even after cutting the bump stops. This is because most lowering springs simply lower the car too much (for street use IMHO) Once you install the springs you will see just how much travel you have and will be able to adjust accordingly. Imagine setting up you car for street use with modest lowering and then with a jack and spanner being able to lower it an additional 1/2 inch or so at the AutoX track (which gives an added benefit of more camber). Also, many people have found that after installing lowering springs, one side or corner is off so having the ability to get all four corners where you want them is a benefit just from asthetics/peace of mind.

found out qa1 has some camber plates, would those be good enough? or should i just go with maximum motorsports plates...

GC also has plates, not needed for minimalist IMHO, bolts should do fine for alignment.

i want a rod/rod panhard bar possibly CHE, and thinking rod/rod lca with reloc brackets...

Whooaa...I thought we were talking minimalist here? (Adj PHB probably a good idea.) The stock lca bushings were designed to work with the other suspension compnents as a system. If you just start changing out LCAs with either high flex resistance bushings (urethane) or low flex resistance bushings (rod end), how will that impact the rest of the suspension components? UCA w/stock bushing? Front suspension bushings? I'll bet you could see unpredictable effects. Do yourself a favor and familiarize yourself with the racing Mustangs in the FRPP catalog and the suspension parts they use:

http://www.millercup.com/pdf/FR500SMillerPartsList.pdf

The FR500S uses GT500 LCAs (slightly stiffer than stock), when you get to the 500C both front AND rear suspension components use urethane bushings. The 500GT may have used some rod end pieces...can't remember. Also check Roush Track Pak and other tuner cars that handle well. Then take your time and ask lots of questions (esp. from the pros like GC and Griggs) and you'll end up wasting a lot less time and $$$ in the long run.

Good Luck

 

[spiral281]

as far as the height adjustments, i probably will set it up and drive it and rarely, but close to never adjust the ride height again...

i will take all of that into consideration...first stop is just springs and front camber fix, with some ability to add some extra for autox, and rear springs and phr at the minimum...i guess i willfind out how long the stock shocks will last...just will do more research on spring rates for sure, and will look into the urethane vs. rod end...though if its mainly nhv i dont care, but as for needing a whole system, i will just wait til i can get upper and lower at the same time if it will make it unstable ...

just trying to fill in the many gaps in my understanding of susp. systems, along with learning the specifics for the mustang esp..

thanks for all the suggestions and any more that may come along before this is over

 

[Vapour Trails]

Ride in a car with rod/rod ends before buying to make sure you want that experience everyday, it's pretty harsh.

When it comes to suspension, people tend to go about it like they do engines. Moar Moar Moar! You really don't need to drop a ton of cash or change a lot of parts to have a good setup. Don't just change parts for the sake of it. Ask yourself, what does the car do now that I don't like and how would I best address that deficiency. Replacing every nut & bolt in the suspension isn't necessarily going to get you where you want to go (but it will make the vendors happy). This is the Sam Strano approach and he's a good guy to listen to, but you won't find him here.

I also prefer steeda parts to almost anything else out there.

 

[ClassJ]

I guess I would call my setup minimalist but perfect for what I wanted. I did the 0.75-1" drop H&R springs which dropped the car a tad more than that.

The GT500 sway bars really work well too! I must have been onto something there since now, 2 years since I bolted them on, they are a part of the track pack on the 2010...go figure.

What I did not do is adjustability. The shocks and sway bars are not adjustable, but I am not one to be fiddling with them anyway. My last car had adj shocks and sways. I set them once when I installed them, adjusted them after a test drive, and never touched them again.