NASA question

[OkieSnuffBox]

NASA only runs one event per year at my local track, Hallett. How will I ever be able to move up through their ranks to HPDE 4/TT?

I've run with Hallett's HST (High Speed Touring) group 3 different days, but those of you who have been there know it's MUCH, MUCH more laid back than what I suspect NASA is like. I've also done sportbike track days at Hallett (5-6 years ago).

Although on my third HST day, the last session of the day the let me out with A group instead of B group, I'm not in anyway intimating that I currently posses the HPDE 4/TT skill level.

I will be attending many more days, and the idea of eventually being able to run TT at different tracks is kind of appealing (this would be 1-2 years away).

I see on their web site that they will recognize if you have other track experience, but at Hallett, their is absolutely no passing in the turns during HST events...........so if I need that skill to move up their ranks, but can't get at my own events???

 

[smitty328]

I did my first NASA event last January at MSR Houston. I had about three Driver's Edge and two Apex events at MSR Cresson and a lot of member days at the track, none of these allow passing in the corners.

I told NASA my driving experience and they started me in HPDE 3. I asked for an instructor for the first session since it was my first time at that track, and the rest of the day went good. At the end of the day I asked for an instructor again and they signed me off to do TT the next day.

The biggest thing they want to see is your comfort level, car handling abilities, awareness of other cars and proof that you look at each corner worker (notice every flag). How fast you drive is not the main thing.

 

[Random Asshole]

I signed up for 3 my first event and took the 4 sticker in the morning drivers meeting. Pretty easy. I took the TT test after lunch and ran TT on Sunday. Dave will have a better answer, I'm sure.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

From what I gather, there are subtle differences from region to region, but they seem to use a pretty consistent set of milestones to gauge your appropriateness (is that a word?) for a given group. Your best bet is to forget about HPDE-4/TT for now, until you get some time in with NASA and understand the dynamics on track in an open passing environment. "Where the hell did HE come from?!" is a phrase we REALLY don't want to hear in those groups, as closing speeds can exceed the national speed limit, and things can happen in a hurry.

The goals for HPDE-3 are essentially as follows, built off those from HPDE-2...

Demonstrate a spacial memory of the course
Perform error analysis
React well to the unexpected
Anticipate changing conditions
Read road surfaces
Heel/toe downshifts
Hard braking into the turn, trail braking
Can double-clutch
Throttle steering
Know principles of vehicle dynamics
Know principles of weight transfer
Awareness of brake bias
Sensitivity to vehicle dynamics
Understand tire dynamics
Understand tire slip angles
Know rain techniques

IF you feel comfortable with those skills, then do what Carl did, and sign up for HPDE-3, and ask for a check-ride from an instructor. Your group leader can help set that up for you. If you're comfortable, heads-up, can handle off-line driving, and all the rest of it, they'll put you into HPDE-4. If not, then they'll help you get prepped to GO to HPDE-4. It's a win-win either way. I had a student bust a check-ride to -4, and was absolutely devastated. I took him out for a session with TT later that day to "show him" what I was talking about, and after he got out of the car he thanked me for failing him... He could see that he wasn't ready. He has since moved through -4, and into TT, and is doing well, so the moral of the story is to not push it, but let it just happen.

If you're NOT comfortable with all the points above, then maybe sign up for HPDE-2, and again ask for a check-ride. Best yet, get in touch with the TX region's chief instructor ([email protected]) and outline your experience and see what they say!

What Carl (Random Asshole) experienced is not typical, in all honesty. He and I had played around in a different track-day group, and I knew he had the chops to go straight to TT, but we had to follow the rules, so...

I will also second everything Smitty said: Speed is not an important factor in making the yes/no decision on putting somebody into a different group.

 

[OkieSnuffBox]

Thanks for the insight.

I'd say there are only a few things on there I'm not comfortable with, obviously passing in turns (never experience it), heel/toe.....the pedal spacing in the miata sucks (going to fix it this winter) so I've just been slowing letting the clutch out on turn-in to help rotate the car, and track driving in the rain......again, haven't gotten to try it.


The closing speed doesn't bother me, possibly because I know there was no corner passing, but being on track in 1.6 Miata on R-comps and being closed on by a BOSS 302 on Hoo-Hoos........pretty dramatic difference in approach speeds.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Passing in turns is something you'll most likely learn in HPDE-3, so no sweat there. I can't speak for other regions, but in Midwest and Great Lakes, we actually do side-by-side drills to get the drivers used to that. Easiest way to learn, is to pick a side (left or right) and run a half-session driving off-line leaving enough room for a car on that side. For the second half of the session, run the other side. That'll teach you a lot about marbles, where there is grip, where there isn't grip, and what you can do when you're off-line. Those experiences and skills will pay HUGE dividends when you're in HPDE-4 and TT. Trust me, going around a corner, at speed, 2-wide, or even 3-wide, is a BLAST, when there's literally inches between your mirrors!

Heel/Toe: Something you really need to learn. Livable in HPDE-3 without it, but something that you will want to prioritize learning. Trail-braking for rotation is SO much smoother, and when you're side-by-side, you do more throttle steering than you do anything else, so it's a virtual requirement getting into HPDE-4 and TT.

Rain: It is what it is. If you haven't been out in the rain, there's no way to explain a rain line or the grip differences, or how the car handles and have it make sense. Take every opportunity you can to get out in the wet, though, it can be fun, AND when you start to learn to balance the car on a knife-edge, that translates directly back to dry-condition driving.

I would probably drop them an email and see what they say about where to sign up. I'm betting on HPDE-3, though, if the rest of the skills package is solid. Most important thing, though is being safe: situational awareness, combined with consistency.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

If you want to get into HPDE4/Time Trial, maybe read this: http://www.vorshlag.com/tech_timetrials.php That is an article we wrote back in 2008-09, but it is still relevant. As Mark pointed out, NASA is pretty good about moving people up in HPDE from 1-4 and into TT... if they have the skills and can display that in their check-off rides.

Can't speak for other regions, but the NASA Texas instructors are all well trained and do a great job working with the HPDE folks - and moving them up when appropriate. There's another NASA instructors school at Harris Hill Road on Feb 16-17th, too. Anyone who wants to be an instructor in NASA should attend one of these schools.

What NASA region / area do you live in? If you are anywhere near Hallet then NASA Texas isn't THAT far away, right? If you are in Oklahoma than at least the MSR-Cresson or Eagles Canyon events are relatively close. Hopefully we'll see you at some of these events, and Hallet for sure!



NASA Texas 2013 SEASON SCHEDULE
from: http://www.nasatx.com/

Jan 19-20 Motorsports Ranch Houston
HPDE, Time Trials, Racing

Feb 16-17 Harris Hill Road
Comp School, Open Lapping, Instructor Clinic

Mar 16-17 Motorsports Ranch Cresson
HPDE, Time Trials, Racing

April 19-21 Texas World Speedway
HPDE, Time Trials, Racing, Enduro

May 4-5 NOLA MotorSports Park
HPDE, Time Trials, Racing

June 22-23 Hallett Summer Shootout
Limited HPDE, Time Trials, Racing

September 20-22 Texas World Speedway
HPDE, Time Trials, Racing, Enduro

Nov 2-3 Eagles Canyon Raceway
HPDE, Time Trials, Racing

Dec TBA
TBA


Good luck,

 

[OkieSnuffBox]

I'll read the write-up when I get home today, thanks for posting.

Yes, I'm in Tulsa. And plan to attend the NASA event in June (will you guys be making it?)......by that point I ought to have 7-9 track days at Hallett under my belt.

I'm only unwilling to travel in car right now because it has no top. I will be getting a hard top eventually, just not yet......I track a Miata, the GT is just the street car..........for now. I also don't have a small utility trailer/hitch or spare of wheels/tires yet for the car either.

Once I have those, I'll have no issues with going to Texas or Heartland Park for events.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

I'll read the write-up when I get home today, thanks for posting.

Yes, I'm in Tulsa. And plan to attend the NASA event in June (will you guys be making it?)......by that point I ought to have 7-9 track days at Hallett under my belt.

I'm only unwilling to travel in car right now because it has no top. I will be getting a hard top eventually, just not yet......I track a Miata, the GT is just the street car..........for now. I also don't have a small utility trailer/hitch or spare of wheels/tires yet for the car either.

Once I have those, I'll have no issues with going to Texas or Heartland Park for events.

Yes, we'll plan on making the June Hallet event. Understand about the Miata... but you have got to get a roll bar for that to run with NASA, don't you? I don't think a hard top is enough (it is optional - only after you have the bar). Check with your NASA region first to verify - don't take my word for it! We just did a NASA pre-race inspection on an NB Miata yesterday and he had both a roll bar and the hard top, and runs with NASA regularly.

And yea, a small 4x4' tire trailer (see two pics above; I built these back in 2006) makes dragging your tires to events easier. I did this for a decade of racing in multiple cars. PITA to load and unload (and to build and store), but safer than carrying 4 loose wheels/tires in the back seat of a Mustang (which I have done too many times to count)!

Cheers,

 

[OkieSnuffBox]

Hehe, don't worry, the car has been properly prepped. Even down to replacing every single nut and bolt involved with the suspension.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Cool! Looks like a hoot...

Of course with an LS1 underhood it would be a Miata on Crack. We're in the middle of 2 different V8 swaps for Miatas right now (one of which we will develop for a kit), plus 3 more LS1 BMWs under the knife (we make a number of BMW LS1 swap kits). We put LS1s into anything, that is my motto (exception: Coyote 5.0 is plenty good!)

Everything is better with a domestic V8... just sayin.

 

[pcdrj]

Thanks for the insight.

I'd say there are only a few things on there I'm not comfortable with, obviously passing in turns (never experience it), heel/toe.....the pedal spacing in the miata sucks (going to fix it this winter)...

Here's a technique I learned to improve this. In a vacant parking lot, setup 2 cones about 50-75 yards apart. Start at the first cone and accelerate to 45-50 mph. As you approach the 2nd cone press clutch in, ball of foot on break, shift to 2nd, blip throttle with heal and catch rpms coming down while letting the clutch out. Turn left around cone and accelerate back to first cone. Repeat this for 10-15 minutes and reverse directions.

IMO this is best learned off track with the key being repetition.