New Whipple Intake by ST Motorsports TESTED!

[ZmanM3]

My opion, small twin turbos are good for spooling fast on the street, one big turbo is good for big power on the track but sucks DD, Twin screw are great for power and torq at all RPM. I personally love my Saleen but if I were to buy FI right now I would probably go with the Whipple or Kenny Bell.

 

[JAFO]

Welcome to the site!

hey thanks - I see you have BMR stuff how do you like it? I called them and they were a bit rude. Like i was taking up a ton of time or something. they seemed like they have a ton of stuff for the S197 but i want to support a company that will support me as I grow back into this hobby. I think the GMS stuff lools good too. they are polor opposite. The Granatelli guy trys to stick up for his stuff on the boards but it is to a point of over kill. Then when you call over there it is like talking to a kitten. I have spoken to 2 or 3 different guys from Granitelli Motors and they all seem very up to date on what works and what won't. For those wondering why I say Granitelli it is simple. I watched that guy Junior Granatelli or is it J.R. grow the mustang sport from nothing to something HUGE. I was "the man" no question in the 80's when he worked at or owned Paxton - not really sure which. He built cars that were fast as sin and handled like they were on rails. I met him at Bob Bondurant driving school in 1990. Everyone said he was the next Indy car super hero. Not sure why he went into drag racing instead.

I guess I am getting way off the subject - just showing my age i guess. So the question what do you think of the Granitelli suspension stuff.

I know they know their stuff and I like the way they treat the customer on the phone but Mr G seems to come off a bit of a tough guy on the boards.

The last thing is they have a ton kit as well. So i was hoping they would cut me a deal if I purchased a turbo kit and all the suspension stuff at the same time. My wife says I can spend like 10k on upgrades. If the turbo or twin screw (maybe centrifugal but probably not) costs $7000 installed then that leaves me $3000 for everything else. Like better exhaust, upgraded intakes and suspension stuff

If I sound like I am sold on GMS - I am not ... yet but I like that they have been around for a long as I have and still have a passion for this stuff.

but again so does Art Whipple - trying getting him on the phone though

 

[JAFO]

I could be wrong here as well...but when you increase the inlet on the intake side...you actually increase boost......Increasing the flow in the exhaust side (ie Long tube headers) you actually create more power with less boost...am i correct?

what I found was this:

If you open up the way your engine can breath AFTER the forced induction unit (regardless of turbo, TS or Centri) then you make more power with less boost required.

If you open up the way your engine can breath BEFORE the forced induction unit - it makes more boost with and more power with th e same blower pulley diameter. So you spin the blower the same RPM but it get more air in and therefore compresses more out.

At 41 year young I am going back to School to be an engineer. Wifes dad left us a few bucks so I could retire early and go back to school full time. AND work on my car full time too - shhhh don't tell the wife.

 

[ZmanM3]

I got my BMR stuff through PMP, a supporting vendor here so I never delt with BMR directly. I stay clear of Granitelli, very bad reputation and when he starts talking on forums he doesn't improve it any. As for how the BMR stuff is, well most of it is sitting at PMP's shop waiting on me to redeploy and drop my car off there so they can swap the engine and put that stuff on. Most seem to like the BMR stuff. Personally I'd spend the money on suspension stuff and FI, but I wouldn't turn the boost up too much if your not going to build the bottom end of your engine.

 

[ZmanM3]

hey thanks - I see you have BMR stuff how do you like it? I called them and they were a bit rude. Like i was taking up a ton of time or something. they seemed like they have a ton of stuff for the S197 but i want to support a company that will support me as I grow back into this hobby. I think the GMS stuff lools good too. they are polor opposite. The Granatelli guy trys to stick up for his stuff on the boards but it is to a point of over kill. Then when you call over there it is like talking to a kitten. I have spoken to 2 or 3 different guys from Granitelli Motors and they all seem very up to date on what works and what won't. For those wondering why I say Granitelli it is simple. I watched that guy Junior Granatelli or is it J.R. grow the mustang sport from nothing to something HUGE. I was "the man" no question in the 80's when he worked at or owned Paxton - not really sure which. He built cars that were fast as sin and handled like they were on rails. I met him at Bob Bondurant driving school in 1990. Everyone said he was the next Indy car super hero. Not sure why he went into drag racing instead.

I guess I am getting way off the subject - just showing my age i guess. So the question what do you think of the Granitelli suspension stuff.

I know they know their stuff and I like the way they treat the customer on the phone but Mr G seems to come off a bit of a tough guy on the boards.

The last thing is they have a ton kit as well. So i was hoping they would cut me a deal if I purchased a turbo kit and all the suspension stuff at the same time. My wife says I can spend like 10k on upgrades. If the turbo or twin screw (maybe centrifugal but probably not) costs $7000 installed then that leaves me $3000 for everything else. Like better exhaust, upgraded intakes and suspension stuff

If I sound like I am sold on GMS - I am not ... yet but I like that they have been around for a long as I have and still have a passion for this stuff.

but again so does Art Whipple - trying getting him on the phone though

So the engeenering degree is just to learn to work on your car?

 

[JAFO]

My opion, small twin turbos are good for spooling fast on the street, one big turbo is good for big power on the track but sucks DD, Twin screw are great for power and torq at all RPM. I personally love my Saleen but if I were to buy FI right now I would probably go with the Whipple or Kenny Bell.

who makes a twin turbo kit that really works and won't melt every oil line and wire in the engine compartment? The Hellion kit, Turbonetics kit and GMS kit seem to all make the same power and torque as anything else down low and then hold their own and even pull away at the top. I would already have a turbo if they were not so many twin screw lovers here making me thing the turbo might be a mistake.

Plus I just read someone say "I love the way the whipple sounds". I do not want any sound. The only sound I want to hear is the exhuast rumble. Leave the blower whinning to MAD Max. Or shucks I just showed my age again.

Not picking on the young guys but I think a great survey would be what power adder does one have as compared to their age

 

[ZmanM3]

I'm 34 and have the Saleen S/C and it makes almost no sound. You hear a sucking sound from the air filter area with the hood up and the car on a dyno getting tuned and the gas mashed. What are you looking to do with your car? Just street driving, drag racing or open track??

 

[psfracer]

I hear I can make 600 crank and 525 at the tires on the stock motor an be safe. would you agree?

No. Yes you can make that power on a stock bottom end, but depending on how hard you would drive / race the car, your days would definitely be numbered with that power level in my opinion. The weak link in the mod motors are the rods (first) and the pistons (2nd). The stock crank is a good piece, and the aluminum block is good to.

what really confuses me is why a lot of the twin screw guys agree that the turbo is the best combo yet they all run a twin screw but the few turbo guys that at out there are deadset loyal to a turbo.

I think the turbo is the best also. My goal, however, was a 10 second daily driver, and I knew I could accomplish that with the twinscrew. Plus I have no experience with turbos whatsoever, so I went with the Whipple. Complete kit, including the fuel system upgrade.

Back then the roots like B&M, Kenne Bell ands Whipple where just junk ( no offence). They looked cool but required a hood scoop, made heaps of hot air so a lot of boost did not mean a lot of power and the packaging was a nightmare. Turbos were a bitch to install but ran great and the centrifugal fued between Paxton and Vortech ment we all got the best blowers coming down the pike very often. Hell by 1996-98 Procharger was coming on strong too.

Today, there is the twinscrew---much better then the old roots style. They all fit under the hood to, even the huge whipple 3.4 and the KB 2.6H

today it seems like the centrifugal does not stand a chance. My 08 auto trans saleen feels "just ok" when I hammer it but has not so good passing power when it is hot out. Livning in Tempe AZ - that is just about every day. I need RELIABLE power so the wife does not bitch and it has to be quiet under the hood.

Actually the fastest 05+ runs a centrifugal. But the normal centrifugal setup that I have seen are lazy out of the hole.

I really wanted to put a turbo on it becuase I was so happy with my old turbo 5.0 from 1986 but so many guys are pushing the twin screw idea, now I am confused - or should I say torn between two lovers

I say since you are familiar with turbo set ups, go with the turbo. Wadman is selling a turbo kit for $3500. My only concern is with the stock bottom end, I would keep the power level south of 500.

So I turn to you all for help - Objective help though.

And a final picture, since you are new to mod motors. Check out what the stock rod looks like. Keep this in mind when you want to push 600 hp at the flywheel (flexplate). Also, if this is a automatic car, you want to replace the stock converter with a PI multi-disc. At that power level, the stock converter may not last to many races. It will start locking / unlocking on the big end.

 

[ILW84U]

I know there aren't many on the board with centrifugal chargers but I will give my experience with the Procharger. I have had mine for 2 years & love it. I haven't increased the boost because of the factory internals but another guy here (he may also post) has the same Procharger with different pulleys & forged internals and is running over 600 RWHP with his. I have not noticed the lack of power out of the hole as you had suggested. I launch at 4000 RPM & have plenty of power. With my 6 lbs of boost I have been able to run a 1.78 60 ft. After that you are always in the power band if you shift at 6000+. On the street the boost may not be as quick as the twin screws but one quick downshift & away you go. Just my . Either way you go I am sure will enjoy the car. Welcome .

 

[psfracer]

Plus I just read someone say "I love the way the whipple sounds". I do not want any sound. The only sound I want to hear is the exhuast rumble. Leave the blower whinning to MAD Max.

HEY! Mad Max was a good movie, but I like Road Warrior better.

How could you NOT like this sound? I also like the stealth idea, I use factory style saleen wheels, and my car does not look like much actually. But when I get on it, I want the others to know what there dealing with. But with normal driving its not that loud at all. WOT is a whole different story though.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c7c8ce41-0bce-464e-a89b-99ea0023600d.htm

 

[Grabber07']

I am curious about this "wadman" turbo kit for $3500..... got a link or anymore info on what it comes with and what I should expect from it? is this his turbo kit used? I am not ready to purchase a kit yet...but I would like to know where I can find one when the time is right

 

[psfracer]

I am curious about this "wadman" turbo kit for $3500..... got a link or anymore info on what it comes with and what I should expect from it? The reason I ask is that it seems too good to be true with a turbo kit that is that cheap.... and you know what some say "if its too good to be true it probably is"?

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3418

He is not happy with it, but I think its a case of just not being tuned properly / and or something wrong with the installation.

 

[Grabber07']

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3418

He is not happy with it, but I think its a case of just not being tuned properly / and or something wrong with the installation.

Ahh I C... Sorry I thought this was a kit that was on the market... a used kit makes more sense on price. I agree with you..by reading the posts there is deffinetly something a foul...could be something simple, yet hes frustrated (I can certainly relate on some aspects, sometimes it feels good to get rid of the problem rather than spend the time to cure it).

 

[JAFO]

Get some twins.

Everyone says turbos are better because bottom line, turbos are way more efficient.

Granatelli has a long history on a lot of boards; for being a douchebag. I've personally never bought a thing from the guy after all of the garbage I see on the boards about the guy and his parts.

Exactly - that is my point. People call him a douchebag but don't own his products and have no firsthand experience.

Call Kenne Bell for help: first problem is they never answer the phone and if you get a human they just tell you it is "you" and re read the instructions. How does that help me? I explained I read the instructions that that is where i got the phone number from. They basically told me I was an idiot (not in those words) and said re read the instructions or call my local installer. That is first

hand experience from me.

How many manufactures are really on these boards? I am sure a few surf but how many make themselves available? As an engineer I am forced to use the computer every day. When I first graduated from college in 87 I never really had to use a computer so when I wanted a car part to go fast I just relied on Muscle Mustangs or SuperFord. Now it is all about the net.

I think older guys like Granitelli (like me) don't understand to true power of the internet. He tries to help but makes himself look bad. Then you have guys like Voretch (owner Jim Middlebrook), Whipple Superchargers (owner Art Whipple) Kenne Bell (owner Jim Bell) who never come here or any other website and do not make themselves available to us as consumers.

Lets rag on guys like Granitelli (that douchebag) that actually come to all the websites to support us.

I guess silence is golden. - Weird thing is the more I try to defend the likes of Granitelli the more I show my age and sound like a GMS commercial. I have never purchased anything from GMS but I did purchase their Granatelli Signature Series Fuel pump for my Vortech car in the old days.

As a virgin to the boards, I did what you suggested and did a big search on Granatelli and here is what I found.

First thing is you need to get rid of all the Andy Granatelli stuff - I guess this is his dad, uncle or grandfather - it depends on which website or blog you read. after getting rid of ALL that we end up with Joe Granatelli, J.R. Granatelli, Joe T Granatelli and a few other loose Granatellis

Here is what I found:

J.R. Granatelli was an engineering student in ASU of all places - never knew that until just now. Looks like he graduated in '87. Then 2 years later the guy pops up in law school in LA.

He is shown as the sales manager, vice pres, president and owner of Paxton Superchargers over a period of 1985 to 1998.

He is credited with starting Aeromotive Fuel pump company which would make sence since my GSS pump from the late 80's and early 90's looks EXACTLY like the pump filter and reg that Aeromotive sells today.

Looks Like Granatelli started DiabloSport or Predator. I guess they got into a lawsuit and Granatelli got paid a ton of money from Diablo. Granatelli is credited from starting a lawsuit against them but the court docs say Diablo sued them in Florida. Since the case was in FL I will assume they sued Granatelli but Granatelli got paid all the money. That would mean they started a fight with him but he finished it.

Jim Middlebrook the owner of Vortech worked for Paxton before starting his company with some guy named Jim Wheels and Jim Wheels owns Powerdyne.

So J.R. gave Jim Middlebrook and Jim Wheels a job. The 2 Jims quit and started Vortech and then Jim wheels quit that and started powerdyne - there is a tons of stuff on what a bad blower powerdyne is but that goes off in a new direction that I can't follow.

J.R. Granatelli and Dennis Hilliard had a company called Central Coast Mustangs that seems to have closed down in 2002 but I can tell you from what I remember from the 80's Central Coast Mustang also called CCM was the best place to buy Mustang Suspension in my day. Although I never knew Granatelli was involved with CCM I know he drove a world challenge road race Mustang sponsored by Baer brakes and CCM and he was fast as sin at almost every track I can remember.

Granatelli has a company called Microtech that makes coils for our cars. There is tons of threads on how great these are with a lot of good dyno graphs to back it up. equally interesting is the amount of crap that has been said about the GMS coils but not a lot of dyno graphs to show that - just guys saying they offered not a lot for the amount they spent. One guy says he lost 100 hp with the coils but we all know you can't loose 100hp on a 300hp car just by changing a coil.

The list goes on but what I can see is that every time Granatelli gets involved in a thread he pisses about 5 or 6 guys off per thread and then he looses credabilty. So again when he lets his figures do his talking he comes off like a not so nice guy. But when you call to his shop he is a pussy cat.

The more I do a search on Granatelli the more "automotive lives" this guy has touched. He seems to be loved or hated.

God what a geek I am. I spent over a hour looking up this guy after I said I am not doing a commercial for him. I just wanted to show myself the power of the net and now I know.

Your correct he comes off like a dick most of the time but seems pretty smart.

I also spelled his name wrong in the beginning but i spent so much time working on this I can't go back and spell check it

As for twin turbos vs single turbo. I can tell you my single turbo 1986 Mustang had 6psi at 2800 and climbed to 13psi by 3700 which was full boost. I current own a lingenfelter TT vette that makes 450 at the tire. It makes full boost which is only 7psi at 3100 and I shift at 6100. So the twin does not spool any faster then the single when it is sized right. There are three reason why you want TT or single
1. Twins can be made 50 state legal and single can not after 1990
2. Packaging – 2 little turbos will make as much power as 1 big one but you can package the little ones a lot better - especially if you don’t want to move all the accessories
3. And lastly - in the past it was hard to spool 1 huge turbo in a race car and twins where better for getting off the line. Today with all the great after market ECMs and controllers you can make just about any turbo spool with timing adjustment

 

[JAFO]

I'm 34 and have the Saleen S/C and it makes almost no sound. You hear a sucking sound from the air filter area with the hood up and the car on a dyno getting tuned and the gas mashed. What are you looking to do with your car? Just street driving, drag racing or open track??

Just cruise. Like I said I have a TT 1999 Corvette and it is dead quiet. I also have a 2003 Eliminator boat with a 525 Merc Marine engine and all you hear is the blower. Half throttle, full or no throttle. Wife hates it and since she gave me the money to purchase the Saleen I agreed I would keep it as quiet as possible if I was aloud to make it as fast as possible with out taking the engine out. We like fast but not problems. I used to pulled my boat with a whipple blown 454 Chevy but it made 4mpg when towing and pinged all the time. Now I have a 2006 Dodge turbo Cummins and it makes 24mpg day in and day out with 17mpg towing to the river

 

[JAFO]

I know there aren't many on the board with centrifugal chargers but I will give my experience with the Procharger. I have had mine for 2 years & love it. I haven't increased the boost because of the factory internals but another guy here (he may also post) has the same Procharger with different pulleys & forged internals and is running over 600 RWHP with his. I have not noticed the lack of power out of the hole as you had suggested. I launch at 4000 RPM & have plenty of power. With my 6 lbs of boost I have been able to run a 1.78 60 ft. After that you are always in the power band if you shift at 6000+. On the street the boost may not be as quick as the twin screws but one quick downshift & away you go. Just my . Either way you go I am sure will enjoy the car. Welcome .

I never would have traded in the Vortech on the old car but it ran out of steam and the Texas Turbo kit i got was only 2300 bucks USED. The Vortech engine had MAC long tubes and Flowmasters. It was loud and proud. Even at idle it sounded like a rock crusher. When I installed the turbo in had to go to shorty headers mounted backwards. They feed into the turbo which was like a big muffler and then that all feed into 1 3.5 in and 3" out Dynomax. I sounded stock until it went into boost. Even half throttle it sounded like a train whistle - My wife would never go for that today.

 

[JAFO]

HEY! Mad Max was a good movie, but I like Road Warrior better.

How could you NOT like this sound? I also like the stealth idea, I use factory style saleen wheels, and my car does not look like much actually. But when I get on it, I want the others to know what there dealing with. But with normal driving its not that loud at all. WOT is a whole different story though.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c7c8ce41-0bce-464e-a89b-99ea0023600d.htm

nice wheelie

 

[ZmanM3]

Just cruise. Like I said I have a TT 1999 Corvette and it is dead quiet. I also have a 2003 Eliminator boat with a 525 Merc Marine engine and all you hear is the blower. Half throttle, full or no throttle. Wife hates it and since she gave me the money to purchase the Saleen I agreed I would keep it as quiet as possible if I was aloud to make it as fast as possible with out taking the engine out. We like fast but not problems. I used to pulled my boat with a whipple blown 454 Chevy but it made 4mpg when towing and pinged all the time. Now I have a 2006 Dodge turbo Cummins and it makes 24mpg day in and day out with 17mpg towing to the river

Sounds to me like the Saleen S/C at lower boost would be a good choice for you. Mine is pretty much undetectable unless you really get on it and then it is just the sucking sound like I said.

 

[psfracer]

Granatelli has a company called Microtech that makes coils for our cars. There is tons of threads on how great these are with a lot of good dyno graphs to back it up. equally interesting is the amount of crap that has been said about the GMS coils but not a lot of dyno graphs to show that - just guys saying they offered not a lot for the amount they spent. One guy says he lost 100 hp with the coils but we all know you can't loose 100hp on a 300hp car just by changing a coil.

I agree with most of your post, but for me the GMS coils were in fact junk, verified by the dyno. Didn't cost me 100, but it was 60rwhp. One of the coils failed after only 3 weeks of use. Tried to get them returned but no luck. Just to be clear, our cars have 8 coils, you probably know that but in the above post you say "just by changing a coil"---so just making sure.

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82323&highlight=gms+coils

 

[tmcolegr]

GMS coils were in fact junk

.

+1