Project STX update and 13/14 April Solo event After Action

[Whiskey11]

Project Tilty - 2009 Mustang GT - STX Build

Well, here is the post I know no one was waiting for (except me )! This thread is going to be a LONG one so for those crazy enough, hang in there, god speed, and may the force be with you.... because you'll need it!

Before we get into the actual Solo Super Weekend rundown, we have some 2012 house cleaning to do.

At the conclusion of 2012 I had enough points to win the STX class in the Nebraska region despite two third place finishes and a second place (first event) finish. It helps that I ran basically unopposed all season. My Co-Driver was still learning my car after the changes I made and the rest of the competition was either new to the sport or on all seasons. In otherwords, it's a "feel good" win. This year will thankfully be different since STX will be well subscribed with decent competition. We have a E36 BMW 328i that IS nationally prepped (at least on the right wheels/tires and on coilovers, no idea on power/weight) but with a new owner/driver and my "benchmark" Integra Type R that IS nationally prepped and is driven by a very talented driver as well as a few other new guys whom I hope hang around for what will be some fun competition! But hey, I got a cool free shirt out of the ordeal!

There was also someone crazy enough to think that I deserved the Solo Novice of the Year award despite having never (ever) run in the Novice class. I'm honored, but really I think there are others who deserve the award that were genuine novices.

13 April 2013 - Test'n'Tune
Where to begin? How about with the 6 months of anticipation of this event compounded by wanting to try out new toys compounded by the desire to win all the events! I set myself a very clear goal: Set the car up, at all costs, for the year so that the only tweaking necessary are "easy" tweaks. If the car is an understeering mess, put up the effort to get under the car and move the watts link bolt up a notch and so on.

So lets cover what exactly the car has done to it:
Ground Control Coilovers (440lbs/in Front/200lbs/in rear)
Ground Control Camber Plates (-2.9º camber, -0.10º toe OUT, +7.0º Caster)
Strano 35mm front bar (middle position)
Stock 20mm rear bar (yup, stock)
Fays2 Watts Linkage (1 hole up from center)
245/45/18 Dunlop Direzza Z1 Sport Star Specs (37 PSI front, 34 PSI rear)
Corner Balanced: 3440lbs (no spare or driver, 1/8th tank of gas), 50/50 cross weights

Some subtle but large changes. Mostly in the springs/dampers/alignment area. That was of course "the big news" posted about a month ago. I wondered about the swaybars and the Watts link location all the way up until the first time out on the course. I had probably 10-15 runs in the car, spun once (snap oversteer, no warning, no real reason either), and really got to know the car.

Here are some "how Tilty sits" photos in race trim:

Dat camber! YUM!

Now for the keen observer you will notice something is off on the car. I'll let you think about that while we go on to the rest of this long post!

Here is the Test'n'Tune course:

1.) Offset Slalom
2.) Standard Slalom
3.) Lolipop (lolipop ohh I love the lolipop <poping noise>)
4.) Eyebrows, winks, whatever you want to call them

The Test'n'Tune was a very simple course layout involving some features that are becoming more dominant in National level competition and something that the creators (driving an SSP prepped Corvette) obviously wanted to work on. The Lolipop was the only odity as crossovers in National courses is pretty much verboten due to the rate at which cars are launched and the high prevelance of collisions associated with crossovers. The eyebrows are becoming a more common annoyance. The course on Sunday would feature FOUR of them and these TWO felt more like a quick jaunt than any "eyebrow" run I've done before. These are significantly less annoying than Chicago boxes so I'm not complaining! The most interesting part of this Test'n'Tune course was none other than the offset slaloms. Every single person of the 22 people in the Test'n'Tune spun here AT LEAST once. Some did multiple times. It took a lot of pondering as to why that was and it wasn't until the Sunday course that I fully understood why but it turns out there is a dip at the third cone (the one right above the #1) which was placed just before the cone so that when you changed directions, if you were really balls on and backsiding the cones, the weight would transfer to a wheel that was basically either in air or responding to that dip. Really awkward placement but it provided to be a challenge that made it one of the more memorable offset slaloms I've done. I generally detest offset slaloms since they are clumsy and awkward to drive but this was FAST and FUN when done right.

So? How does it feel? Well, it feels undertired (no shit Whiskey... 245's...) but otherwise impressive. When I say undertired, I mean, my buddy in the Evo IX SE, with 285 Yokohama AD048 R-Comps said "Damn this thing has some grip!" and was actually serious. Ohh that's not "undertired" Ok... it IS undertired, it IS noticeable, but it isn't awful. About the only way to describe the "nervousness" is as undertired. It's not slow, it's not unstable, it's just nervous. It's nervous in a good way and a bad way. Good because it teaches me to slow my hands down and turn in sooner, bad because the car is easy to get past the grip level provided by the tires and 4 wheel slide.

Anyway, the only changes I made to the car were tire pressure and shock settings. I managed to get the balance close enough where tire pressure and shock settings can change the balance of the car. The car puts down power REALLY WELL and if you flat foot it mid corner the car rotates rather than pushes. It's actually quite refreshing. With some more grip I bet this car would do really, really well. I'm more impressed with me being able to pick those settings for the swaybars, ride height and Watts link and not having to dick with ANY of it at all!

I'm loving the mid corner grip the car now has and the car absolutely EATS slaloms alive. They happen so friggen quick and changing directions is so instant it is disgusting and it will do it with power as well!

So what's the bad? Well there isn't really any other than the fact that the car requires very slow inputs to avoid overworking the tires which is part of the reason it feels so nervous at the limit.

Time wise, from the other 3 STX competitors there on the Test'n'Tune, I was about a second faster than most of them. Compared to my buddy in his really tail happy Evo (yeah, it was, 700 lbs/in springs in the rear, 600 lbs/in in the front, stock front bar, aftermarket rear bar...) I was about a second and a half slower. That is pretty impressive. Granted, tire temps played a HUGE role in performance and it was kind of on the cold side (low to mid 50's) with a reasonably stiff breeze.


14 April 2013 - Solo Points Event #1:
It started last night with rain... yup rain... which was followed by the wind. I arrived on site at 7:45ish to a damp site and wind gusts ranging from 20 to 25 mph and coming from the south west. It was overcast and remained that way all day. It never did rain again though. I had the privilege of working the 1st heat, watching the 2nd heat and running the third heat when it was the warmest and it didn't really help that much with grip since "warm" was 60 degrees! Overall the event went well and had a pretty good turnout (over 80 people) and the course was well designed:

1.) This is the same offset slalom as the Test'n'Tune with a different exit
2.) Eyebrows (yup, 4 of them)
3.) Slalom of driver's choice
4.) Half a Chicago box

Once again, the first offset slalom proved to be an area of spinning for those who did not show up to the Test'n'Tune. I think 5 or 6 people spun there during the event and these people were some of our more experienced drivers who were really pushing their cars. Some of the less experienced folk were simply not going fast enough for it to be a problem. The Eyebrows here drove more like walloms (walled slaloms) since they were spaced out pretty far. The driver's choice slalom at #3 provided one huge mystery. If you watch my videos (soon to follow) you will notice I did the first run the shortest way and the rest the long way. When I ran it the first time the short way it was because pretty much everyone that was fast (including that SSP Corvette) was doing it that way but I found that braking too hard into the corner before caused a lot of slowdown and the exit wasn't any faster in my car than doing it the long way. The last half Chicago box thing was a generally large annoyance. The one thing about Chicago boxes is that they can be very visually deceptive and this was no exception. Those that knew their cars well enough could navigate some of the fatest cars through their pretty much at WOT. The huge sweeper right before the Chicago box set you up perfectly to just make it a quick 2 cone slalom rather than the annoying chicago boxes I'm used to. This is, in my opinion, the correct way to set up a Chicago box since it is nothing more than a visual clusterfuck for your mind to deal with and for those with the experience to recognize either at the beginning or later that it is simply a quick transition before the end, it basically set you up for WOT from the apex of the slalom to the finish line which turned out to be a problem.

This is the second Nebraska Region event in which I have witnessed someone taking out the timing system. The first time they hit the reflector which was nothing more than a bunch of shiny metal disks bolted to an egg crate and no damage was done to the timing system beyond having to reset everything. This time was different. Our new timing system is 100% wireless and both the receiver and the sender are required to send a signal back to the timing trailer (since they can monitor "system health" from there). Take one out and the system is completely FUBAR. Sadly this happened in heat ONE. Out came the wired system which promptly was unable to communicate with our timing software. They hand logged every single run (we do this anyway) up until about halfway through the second heat when wind took out the "towers" holding the wire above the start/finish line. Since driving over the wires is not an option something else had to be rigged up to work. It turns out, that our wireless system, although mangled beyond all recognition, was salvaged enough to continue to work. Out it went to replace the wired system and normal operation continued for the remainder of the day (thank goodness!).

Photo courtesy of Jerry Doctor

We were given a total of five runs in which to "get the job done" and I cranked out some low 59's in my first runs followed by two 58.5's followed by a 58.1. My competition and benchmark in the Integra Type R had a few 57.5's that he ran but was unsure if there was any coneage on his last one. I had asked him if he heard any of the times from the other 4 competitors in STX and he said he hadn't but he told me that he had chatted with them prior to our heat and checked out tires and was "not concerned". Well I did know the one 328i was on RS3's and they looked to be 255's or 265's but having seen his runs from the Test'n'Tune and heard his times (about a second and a half slower than mine) I wasn't that concerned.

Before I get to the event results (which the official ones have not yet been posted) let me get the videos out of the way:

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - 14 April 2013 - #12 STX - Run #1 - YouTube

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - 14 April 2013 - #12 STX - Run #2 - YouTube

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - 14 April 2013 - #12 STX - Run #3 - YouTube

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - 14 April 2013 - #12 STX - Run #4 - YouTube

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - 14 April 2013 - #12 STX - Run #5 - YouTube

Ok, ok, enough teasing. You want the results and I don't blame you. You've suffered through the mindless ramblings of two days worth of events crammed into ONE post. You deserve a medal for making it this far! So how did Project Tilty do? Well, the official results are not out yet...




























But I did stay for the awards ceremony at the end (they asked us to, then guilted us into taking down the fence! ) and there were two trophies in the class with 6 drivers. They read off second place before reading off the victor, a mere six thousandths (or was it nine thousandths...) of a second out of first which was the closest split at the event as my Benchmark in the Integra Type R. At this point, knowing he ran 3 of his runs faster than mine, I kinda thought to myself "Well shit, who won then? It couldn't have been me since he ran faster times than me on 3 of his 5 runs and still only placed second." Turns out, Project Tilty squeeked out another victory and that he coned all three of those runs! I apparently coned my 58.1 run since my winning time was 58.5XX. PHEW! Now Shawn (the driver of the Type R) basically collapsed to his knees when he was the second place guy since the margin of victory was so narrow and when I was announced the victor we both looked at each other, shook hands and said, in unison: "This is why I love STX". Scary that it happened at the same time but we both congratulated each other. I really hope the other guys in STX stay in STX, but if it ends up being Shawn and I as the only two people, I know that we can both give each other one hell of a run for our money!

So now that you've made it this far, I'm sure you are dying (maybe literally after reading all that) to know what is next for Project Tilty? Well, the biggest things are to continue to learn this car. The hardest thing is going to be finding the limits again. This car responds so quickly to driver input that during the Test'n'Tune the first apex cone BEFORE THE START LIGHTS was lunched 4 times becuase I was turning in too soon. On one of the videos you can clearly see in the slalom the front wheels literally on the base of a cone and I'm sure the back end lunched it (although I don't remember hearing it).

The biggest news though is that April 20th is the release of the "shit or get off the pot" move the cars to STU proposal response. This literally will define next year's major purchase (wheels and tires) and the direction I take my benchmarks for this year. I haven't made up my mind on anything but the wheels which right now are going to be TSW Interlagos wheels. If the cars are "stuck" in STX with no additional provisions to make them competitive I will be on the 18x9's which weigh in at a tick over 18lbs each. If we get the move to STU it will be 18x10.5's weighing in at around 21lbs each. I could go with the Nurburgrings in 18x10.5 but the look is so overplayed on the S197 chassis that it is really not my preferred look. When it was the only light weight rotary forged wheel TSW offered I was content but now that the Interlagos is out and weighs a fifth of a pound lighter and is the same price and is different from the 90 billion S197's with the "SVE Drift" wheels it is more attractive to go that route. Besides, Terry at Vorshlag did the whole Forgeline F14 look on his car and while my car shares a lot of inspiration from his original motives and a lot of my knowledge comes from his experiences, I didn't want to clone his car. Of course, the Interlagos looks like the wheels he ran in STX with the 265/40/18 RS3's that Conekiller bought (stole ) they are far less common on these cars. The stock Bullitts will keep the Z1's on them until they run into the wearbars hopefully midway through next year then I'll replace them with Continental ExtremeContact DW tires in stock sizes which will serve as rain tires as well as my DD tires. The TSW's and whatever tire I end up on will be the autocross/track ONLY tires.

My next event wont be until May 19th in Iowa unless I can convince someone to come to Oskaloosa Iowa from Omaha with me as I'm not making that drive by myself without someone to keep me awake. The Nebraska Region event is on May 5 and I have to work that Sunday (one of 5 Sundays the store is open all year...) and under ZERO circumstances can I get that day off. I'm contemplating, heavily I might add, going to Spring Nationals just for the shits and grins but I have to check to see if I can even get the Saturday off since it is a two day event (four if you count the ProSolo I'm not doing).

For now, nothing on the car will change setup wise since the car was capable of rotating under power fairly easily as setup. I realize it seems silly to go to a Test'n'Tune and only mess with easy to adjust stuff but I think the car was already there for car setup. There was surprisingly little understeer. Just enough where a little more front end grip in sweepers would have been nice but not enough that a quick goosing or lifting of the throttle wouldn't adjust the pitch of the car. For now, there is some downtime between events that I'll use to get more familiar with the car. I'm leaving the damper adjustments where they are, since the car is still very comfortable to drive in and I think that'll help get me used to the turn in.

For next year, I'd also like to address the issue of the rear differential. I'm still very undecided on which route to go and it seems like I may go with the Detroit TrueTrac and "deal with" any setup issues it may impart with inside wheel spin. Right now it is the only durable gear diff I have seen. The WaveTrac, while awesome in design and operation, looks to be too much of a potential headache with the numerous reports of it being very fragile in the 8.8 cars. The Torsen was never on the table due to it's potential reliability issues with hard launches (I wouldn't mind unleashing the inner drag racer in me sometime) and clutch based differentials just seem like something that will continue to nickle and dime me for the performance that it imparts. The only other option is to keep rebuilding the stock one which is about as appealing as the other clutch based differentials.

Anyway, thanks for hanging in there and reading! When the official results and any photos from the event get posted I will make sure to update this thread!

Ohh yeah, for those who have been thinking about "what has changed" on my car... due to the lovely motorsportreg system, two people are allowed to register with the same number in the same class. In this case, there was a guy from out of state who also was #11 STX and despite the fact that I was the fourth person to register for the event and he didn't register for probably a week after I registered it allowed him to use the same number. So I volunteered at registration (who didn't notice it until I brought it up) to change to #12 for this event. Had I not won STX, I surely would have gladly blamed the fact that I had to run a different number than MY number!

To add: Project Tilty, comes from the phrase "Tilting at Windmills" a phrase used by Terry Fair to describe running an S197 in STX. Although I'm not sure how running an S197 in STX is "attacking an imaginary enemy" from which the phrase is referencing, it feels right, so therefore it is!

 

[Mike K]

Holy long post batman!

 

[Whiskey11]

Holy long post batman!

Yeah, true, I suppose! I'm always open to comments though so I hope some folks jump in and criticize till the cows come home because I'm always trying to learn some new stuff!

 

[Whiskey11]

A photo:

Not much information to get from the photo but it's a photo! I'm pretty sure it was taken during the eyebrows.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

The biggest news though is that April 20th is the release of the "shit or get off the pot" move the cars to STU proposal response. This literally will define next year's major purchase (wheels and tires) and the direction I take my benchmarks for this year. I haven't made up my mind on anything but the wheels which right now are going to be TSW Interlagos wheels. If the cars are "stuck" in STX with no additional provisions to make them competitive I will be on the 18x9's which weigh in at a tick over 18lbs each.

That's not bad - you can't really stress the wheels too much if it gets stuck in STX. There are half a dozen 18x9" wheels that are relatively lightweight (17-19 pounds) and I wouldn't worry too much about offset or weight, unless it is higher than 20 lbs.

If we get the move to STU...

We hope hope hope it goes to STU... and hopefully with some extra allowances. I think we will get the former but not the latter. Keep writing those letters!

... it will be 18x10.5's weighing in at around 21lbs each. I could go with the Nurburgrings in 18x10.5 but the look is so overplayed on the S197 chassis that it is really not my preferred look. When it was the only light weight rotary forged wheel TSW offered I was content but now that the Interlagos is out and weighs a fifth of a pound lighter and is the same price and is different from the 90 billion S197's with the "SVE Drift" wheels it is more attractive to go that route.

18x10.5" wheels? Hmm.... why that size, I wonder? None of the off the shelf 1-piece 18x10.5" wheels fit the S197 chassis, front and back. That sized wheel will definitely need different front and rear offsets to fit under stock fender contours.

18x10.5" ET30 wheels from Enkei.

There are many 18x10.5" ET30-ET38 wheels that are made in the 5x114.3mm PCD, which will bolt onto a Mustang. These wheels all fit great up front...

But poke out past the fenders in the rear...

That is from an STU prepped then ESP prepped 2006 GT, back in 2009-2010.

We've tested all of the available, lightweight, off-the-shelf 18x10" and 18x10.5" wheels and many would fit one end of the car but not the other. Even our custom made run of 18x10" ET43 wheels barely fits both ends of these S197 cars; it is tucked inboard up front and pushed out about as far as you can out back. For a 295mm or wider tire we sometimes run a 5mm spacer up front, if the struts are in the way on the inside.

These 3 pictures above are with our D-Force 18x10" ET43 wheel and a 285/30/18 Yokohama AD08 "STU" tire

That 18x10" wheel is just the width limit of what fits both ends of these cars, unfortunately. An 18x10.5" isn't in that range. There are tons of S197 autocrossers that insist that these 18x10.5" wheels actually fit, and they keep using them, but the rears always "poke". If you corner hard enough, and have a low enough ride height, it will rub and/or cut the rear tires on the outer fender.

Some folks will compensate by raising the rear ride height. The car above has 1000# front, 600# rear springs to make it work. And the car is fast like that, in ESP class (took 2nd at the 2012 Solo Nats), but that is way too much spring rate for an STU car/street tire, and is absolutely horrific for street driving.

Of course if you can deal with differing offsets front and rear you can get wheels made that actually fit this car in 11" widths. That's how we fit the 18x12" rear and 18x11" fronts above with 315mm rubber. Yes, Forgestar F14 is the way to go: 18x11 or 18x12" is $350, 18x10" is $340; built to order, available in 2-4 weeks, machined to your custom offsets/bolt circle right in California, and coated to your choice of 12+ colors and finish options (gloss, flat, textured, brushed).

For a bit less coin and a bit less weight, our D-Force 18x10" wheel is $309/each. It would also work well with a 285mm tire, and won't poke.

Honestly, for the best competitive set-up with a 285mm tire in STU (285/35/18 Hankook RS-3 would be my first tire to test) I'd want to stretch that bi-atch out on as wide of a wheel as I could: an 18x11" seems ideal. Here's some background...

When we ran STU in 2008 in an '08 EVO X MR, we ran half the season on 18x10.5" Enkies with a 265/35/18 Yokohama AD07. We were waiting for the new (at the time) AD08 to arrive in the 245/40/18 size we needed. This 265mm tire worked SO WELL on the 10.5" wheel, in both autocross and track conditions. It just happened to be a tire we had left over from running STU in my BMW in the 2007 season, and the wheels fit that car so well, that we stretched the 265 onto the 10.5". It was incredible.

We finally got the 245mm AD08s late in the season and still ran them on an 18x10" wheel front and back (and they had different offsets to both clear the brakes and fit the track, front and rear). This EVO X was unfortunately too heavy (3350 lbs) and too powerful (it made 380 whp in STU trim) for a skinny 245mm tire, so it would overheat the tires quickly in a typical autocross run, even with the 245mm stretched to the max. Then the whiz-bang, electronicly shifted DSG transmission started to fail and the car became a big hot mess. But I digress...

My point is this: for a 285/35/18 tire in STU autocrossing I'd go to an 18x11" wheel that actually fit the car first, and if not that, at least go to an 18x10" wheel that fit the car, before I'd use an 18x10.5" wheel that unnecessarily widened the rear track and allowed the tires to rub the rear fenders. Don't use a wheel just because it is cheap and you saw somebody else use it. Also, IGNORE ALL STYLING CONSIDERATIONS, as these things don't make you faster, usually the opposite is true. Get the wheel that fits, is light, and you can afford... if it looks great, that's just a bonus.

Besides, Terry at Vorshlag did the whole Forgeline F14 look on his car and while my car shares a lot of inspiration from his original motives and a lot of my knowledge comes from his experiences, I didn't want to clone his car....

Damn the styling, man!

Seriously, don't worry about what I or any other schmuck used for S197 wheels, in this class or that - you could learn from our extensive testing, research, the risk of making our own wheel, and USE WHAT WORKS. Forgestar is the ONLY 1-piece rotary cast/semi-forged wheel you can get CUSTOM MADE TO ORDER in single sets, is available in 18x10/11/12" sizes, and that are NOT $1200/each (CCW Monoblocks). You also don't want 3-piece wheels (heavier, costlier, weaker, have hardware "wear items"). There are other model choices from Forgestar (CF5, CF10, etc) but so far all of them are heavier than the F14. We've sold a ton of these wheels in 18x10" and 18x11" sizes for S197 track and autocross guys... because they work right and the price is right.

So many colors and finish choices...

For next year, I'd also like to address the issue of the rear differential. I'm still very undecided on which route to go and it seems like I may go with the Detroit TrueTrac and "deal with" any setup issues it may impart with inside wheel spin. Right now it is the only durable gear diff I have seen. The WaveTrac, while awesome in design and operation, looks to be too much of a potential headache with the numerous reports of it being very fragile in the 8.8 cars. The Torsen was never on the table due to it's potential reliability issues with hard launches (I wouldn't mind unleashing the inner drag racer in me sometime) and clutch based differentials just seem like something that will continue to nickle and dime me for the performance that it imparts.

You know which way we went, and we've been beating the hell out of the thing... Do it ONCE and do it RIGHT: the Torsen T2-R.

This model doesn't seem to have the reliability issues of the OEM Torsens on a drag strip. WaveTracs have a horrible track record so far (especially the early adopters). And I haven't seen anyone seriously competitive in Solo on the TruTracs yet.

The only other option is to keep rebuilding the stock one which is about as appealing as the other clutch based differentials.

Even if you are doing this yourself it is pissing into the wind, tilting at windmi.... oh, nevermind.

To add: Project Tilty, comes from the phrase "Tilting at Windmills" a phrase used by Terry Fair to describe running an S197 in STX. Although I'm not sure how running an S197 in STX is "attacking an imaginary enemy" from which the phrase is referencing, it feels right, so therefore it is!

Agreed. PERFECT choice.

Good luck - I really hope this works for you, whether it stays in STX or gets bumped to STU. I'll keep putting in my 2 cents, and tips we have learned from running in the same classes for 8 of the last 12 years (STX and STU), unless you want me to stop.

Cheers,

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Am I the only one that thinks 285 is a weird number to cutoff at? I am waiting for the fastrack as well, I almost pulled the trigger on wheels a while back but I can't justify replacing my 9" wide wheels with 9" wide wheels, even if tires are cheaper.

Chris, thanks for posting all of this. I will follow as religiously as I follow Terry's posts. I think there is still hope for this car in STwhatever. Our poorly prepped car took second in STX this past weekend against an RX8 that has been dialing in for years.

The brz/frs cars keep me awake at night, though. Nobody that can drive has one up here yet, but they are going to be fast.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Am I the only one that thinks 285 is a weird number to cutoff at? I am waiting for the fastrack as well, I almost pulled the trigger on wheels a while back but I can't justify replacing my 9" wide wheels with 9" wide wheels, even if tires are cheaper.

Yea, the 285mm number was dreamed up many years ago when STU was created. It was a token allowance they gave to the RWD non-turbo cars that were trying to compete against the AWD turbo rallye cars that have dominated this class every year since 2005, except for one.

Left: My '97 M3 that we ran in STU from 2005-2007; Right: A local racer's E46 M3 that ran in STU briefly

The problem was that the most popular 2WD car in STU couldn't really ft a 285mm tire so it was a moot point. OMFG we tried and tried but it just wouldn't fit... so that's why they never gave STU cars any more than that size, as it seemed to be either the max or beyond what the popular 2WD cars could fit.

Left: Our 18x10" wheel and 265/35/18 tires (measured at 275mm) on my E36 M3. Right: 285/30/18 on E46 M3

We tilted at windmills in STU for 3 years and managed to squeeze a 265mm tire and 10" wheel on E36 M3s, and one guy even got a 285mm under his, but it was so compromised that we all gave up on the idea. I managed a 2nd in class at Nationals and my wife won STU-L twice in this car, but that's all we could manage. Then a few folks tried E46 M3s in STU, with the 285mm tire - they had more power, but they had more weight, and were never competitive in the class. We kept pointing out how many people tried and failed to get it done in serious STU efforts using 2WD cars, kept asking for more allowances to the 2WD cars... then one lone E36 M3 wins the STU class last year and all potential extras got thrown right out the window.

Oh well, its an old argument that I won't get into...

The brz/frs cars keep me awake at night, though. Nobody that can drive has one up here yet, but they are going to be fast.

Oh yea, these are going to be competitive...

These cars are no joke, especially when you upgrade from the craptastic OEM wheel and tire sizes and tire model (Prius tires!). We have one of these here at Vorshlag that we're prepping quietly for STX that is a real grip monster. Light, nimble, wide track width, and it wakes up with a 9" wide wheel and 255mm tire. It is even fun on track, but really lacks power at those speeds (160 whp). In bone stock trim it was 2775 lbs, and we've knocked a lot of weight out since then (figure 2600 when "maxed out" for STX class)... meanwhile a well prepped STX S197 might get to 3400-3450 pounds. So that's a 800-850 pound deficit, but you are both running the same sized tire?

That was with Kevlar Cobra race seats, a custom lightweight exhaust we re-worked 3 times to get more weight out, lightweight wheels, light battery, and every ounce removed we could find - we almost went with downsized/lighter brakes, too! See why I'm freaking out, trying to push to get the S197 the HELL out of STX!?!

Cheers,

 

[Whiskey11]

Terry, thanks for the post. By all means, continue to post! As for the wheels, the choice isn't being made right now. I plan on doing a lot of more research on the subject before making that decision.

Am I the only one that thinks 285 is a weird number to cutoff at? I am waiting for the fastrack as well, I almost pulled the trigger on wheels a while back but I can't justify replacing my 9" wide wheels with 9" wide wheels, even if tires are cheaper.

Chris, thanks for posting all of this. I will follow as religiously as I follow Terry's posts. I think there is still hope for this car in STwhatever. Our poorly prepped car took second in STX this past weekend against an RX8 that has been dialing in for years.

The brz/frs cars keep me awake at night, though. Nobody that can drive has one up here yet, but they are going to be fast.

I think 285 is a bit strange myself but there had to be a line drawn somewhere.

I plan on continuing to keep people updated although I don't have the financial capability to max my car out in a short amount of time so there is going to be a lot of small updates!

Congrats on your second place! It's no small feat and the uphill battle is only going to get more uphill as the FRS/BRZ twins get more prepped and better driven. I'm eager, which is an understatement, to hear which direction the SEB is deciding to take us. The more and more we post about our tribulations the more attention our builds will get from the SEB. There are a TON of Mustang owners building for ST that the SEB doesn't know about. Thankfully we have Dave here to listen to our tribulations and maybe it will give us a little sympathy on the board!

Terry, my car, in full 100% street trim with no weight reduction weighs 3441lbs without a spare tire and an 1/8th tank of gas. I've found 155lbs that I can pull out of the car easily between seats, exhaust, wheels/tires, brakes, and batteries. That would put me just shy of 3300lbs for weight.

Still, a 600-700lb deficit.

 

[chilema]

Congrats on the STX win dude! Keep up the nice driving!

You should stick with #12 so we can match lol! Same color same number! (And somehow some way we decided to use the same font for magnets! O_O)

I hear ya on the snap oversteer. From the photos it looks like the car has a good bit of forward rake, what's the F/R weight bias looking like? I had the same problem when I first installed the AST's and the front was too low compared to the rear. Since I couldn't adjust the rear height I ended up raising the front a bit (still rakes forward though) and it felt noticeably less nervous.

The BFG Rival is starting to sound more and more promising especially with the upcoming selection of "big car"-friendly sizes. I'm hoping it works out to be a game-changer for big, high-powered cars running street tires, I have more events available every year to attend than those HoHo's will allow.

 

[Whiskey11]

Congrats on the STX win dude! Keep up the nice driving!

You should stick with #12 so we can match lol! Same color same number! (And somehow some way we decided to use the same font for magnets! O_O)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/whiskey_11/IMGP9600.jpg

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5559/img2503cr.jpg

I hear ya on the snap oversteer. From the photos it looks like the car has a good bit of forward rake, what's the F/R weight bias looking like? I had the same problem when I first installed the AST's and the front was too low compared to the rear. Since I couldn't adjust the rear height I ended up raising the front a bit (still rakes forward though) and it felt noticeably less nervous.

The BFG Rival is starting to sound more and more promising especially with the upcoming selection of "big car"-friendly sizes. I'm hoping it works out to be a game-changer for big, high-powered cars running street tires, I have more events available every year to attend than those HoHo's will allow.

I'm not so sure about keeping the #12! I kind of like the #11, a lot.

The car is nervous, but it's not filled with snap oversteer. The snap oversteer was on that one part of the course and was due to a course design rather than a car setup issue. The car feels nervous because it doesn't have much tire under it.

My weight distribution is 52.6/47.4. Not great, but not horrible either. I've thought about raising the front but doing so would upset the corner/weights. Lowering the rear would work as well and I think that may help with the wheel hop issue I was having on launch.

The tire wars are still heating up. If the Rival doesn't continue to have treadsplice issues it will certainly be on the list. Until then, I'm very much "in the air" on which to chose which is why I'm going to wait to see how it plays out later on. The Rival could quite well be the tire to have on heavier cars which makes it attractive provided it comes in a size we can use!

 

[fun4me]

Rival treadsplice issues ?

 

[Whiskey11]

Rival treadsplice issues ?

http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/443275/afpg/9

 

[fun4me]

http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/443275/afpg/9

Not pretty. I'm sure they'll work it out. Just surprised they rushed them to market, w/o extensive testing. Wonder how many miles people will see w/ them vs. rs3, ZII, and re11(a).

 

[Whiskey11]

Not pretty. I'm sure they'll work it out. Just surprised they rushed them to market, w/o extensive testing. Wonder how many miles people will see w/ them vs. rs3, ZII, and re11(a).

Yeah we will see. I wonder if the Rivals really are 200 treadwear or if they are the start of that slippery slope that gave us A6s in stock class.

The results were finally posted and my runs were:
Run 1: 63.869/2
Run 2: 59.115
Run 3: 61.651/1
Run 4: 58.532
Run 5: 58.845

My margin of victory over the Type R was .009 seconds. My new benchmark is a Subaru STi driven in STU who ran at Nationals (didnt do that well but better than I did (not at all)). His best time was 57.156 which puts me at 1.376 seconds behind a sorta prepped (coilovers, wheels/tires and power) car.

Interestingly enough we had a Boss 302 on 285 RS3 tires and 9.5" wide 18s run a 57.705 (split of .549 seconds) with nothing more than camber plates, brake ducts and brake pads. The driver is a 25+ year veteran autocrosser and road racer who is just now getting back into autocross after being in road racing (vipers and spec miata) for the past decade. That certainly gives me hope at the local level anyway for a competitive S197 at least here in the Nebraska region for STU. Who knows beyond that or if that time gets wider as temps increase. I would think the STi will get quicker at a bigger rate than the Boss would since AWD tends to have more grip regardless of the tire size difference. That is something I will be watching as this year goes on.

 

[Whiskey11]

I figured I should go ahead and update this, maybe turn it into my "build thread" but Project Tilty is going National in May. Due to work interfering with our May regional event and no hope of escaping, Spring Nationals will be taking the place of our May event. I have set a very, very lofty goal:

Place anything but DFL

That may be a bit optimistic but I am sure as hell going to try! If nothing else I will get to see Rhoades Camaro up close and personal and get a good gauge on how I am or am not doing as a driver.

Im excited and extremely nervous since this will be the first National event I have attnded as a racer. I honestly havent the foggiest idea how this works ao hopefully I can find some poor soul to walk me through aome of it.

 

[Mountain]

The tire wars are still heating up. If the Rival doesn't continue to have treadsplice issues it will certainly be on the list. Until then, I'm very much "in the air" on which to chose which is why I'm going to wait to see how it plays out later on. The Rival could quite well be the tire to have on heavier cars which makes it attractive provided it comes in a size we can use!

I can't comment on an autocross experience or a direct apples-to-apples comparison, but I attended a track event this past weekend where I have brand new RE-11 285's and my buddy has Rival 245's. Between my car and his, even with the smaller width I was more impressed with his tires (Rivals) than mine (RE-11's) going into all the same corners at about the same speed. Also, comparing the way his car felt to mine when trying to push to the limit, his felt more confident and more like the tire could be pushed more. This was at Gingerman Raceway in South Haven, MI.

I really want to see how the tires work once our SOLO season starts here.

 

[Roadracer350]

I can't comment on an autocross experience or a direct apples-to-apples comparison, but I attended a track event this past weekend where I have brand new RE-11 285's and my buddy has Rival 245's. Between my car and his, even with the smaller width I was more impressed with his tires (Rivals) than mine (RE-11's) going into all the same corners at about the same speed. Also, comparing the way his car felt to mine when trying to push to the limit, his felt more confident and more like the tire could be pushed more. This was at Gingerman Raceway in South Haven, MI.

I really want to see how the tires work once our SOLO season starts here.

How were the cars set up? Were they the same? Same drivers, tyre pressures, suspension, same make, year and model? A lot of small variances can add up to make a car handle differently.

 

[Mountain]

I can't comment on an autocross experience or a direct apples-to-apples comparison, but I attended a track event this past weekend where I have brand new RE-11 285's and my buddy has Rival 245's. Between my car and his, even with the smaller width I was more impressed with his tires (Rivals) than mine (RE-11's) going into all the same corners at about the same speed. Also, comparing the way his car felt to mine when trying to push to the limit, his felt more confident and more like the tire could be pushed more. This was at Gingerman Raceway in South Haven, MI.

I really want to see how the tires work once our SOLO season starts here.

My car:
2012 GT
stock 5.0L Coyote
MT-82
3.73 Track-Lok
Koni Sports
GT500 PP Springs
Spohn Pan Hard (poly/del-sphere)
Steeda Heavy Duty Strut Mounts
stock sway bars (34.6/24.0)
285/35/19 RE-11
19x9.5 wheels
-1.7 Camber, 0 toe, 7.1 caster

His car:
2008 Mustang Bullit
stock 4.6L 3v Bullit
TR3650
3.73 Track-Lok
stock shocks
stock springs
Strano front and rear bars (35/25; front @ middle and rear at softest)
245/40/18 Rival
18x8.5 wheels

 

[Mountain]

...I shoulda seen if he wanted to swap wheel/tires.

 

[Whiskey11]

28 April 2013 - Oskaloosa Airport, Oskaloosa Iowa DMVR event

Time for another Project Tilty update! Yesterday was a Des Moines Valley Region SCCA autocross event out at the Oskaloosa Iowa airport just outside of Oskaloosa Iowa. For those that don't know, Oskaloosa is on the wrong side of Des Moines for anyone west of Des Moines and that resulted in a very, very early morning. I woke up around 4:30, got myself ready, went and filled up the car, and met up with 3 friends from my region (My co-driver from last year in his new-to-him Shinka RX8, the guy who got me into autocross with his Evo IX SE, and another friend in an STi). We hit the road at 6:10 for the 3 hour drive to Oskaloosa in an attempt to get there before the 10:00 AM deadline for registration closing.

Even with a couple of stops we managed to get there at about 9:30AM. We got everything pulled out of our cars, I got the camber plates dumped in, the Koni's set, and went to tech. From tech, I hurriedly moved my car back to our paddock space and ran to go walk the course.

To say first impressions are a bitch is an understatement. First impressions of this course made me want to vomit and no amount of descriptive words would highlight exactly how tight this course was. It walked tight, and I knew that meant it would be an extremely busy day in the cockpit. The course did not disappoint on that promise!

Here it is, in typical MSN Paint format:

This course had plenty of features. To avoid confusion, I've lumped some together to simplify the map. Even lumped together there is still SIX "features".
1.) The first Chicago Box
2.) Increasing width slalom
3.) "normal" slalom
4.) Chicago box followed by a slalom acting like another Chicago box
5.) A bunch of oddly shaped sweepers
6.) "normal" slalom

So, as you all know, I hate Chicago boxes when used on tight courses. I hate them more when they are thrown in at random in high speed sections to slow you down. Thankfully, the whole course was tight and didn't really drive that fast. I probably could have done the entire course in 1st and dealt with a little bit of rev limiter. I started to run a course in 1st, only to switch to second since it "felt" better. I use the term "normal" slalom loosely... it looked like a normal slalom but the cones were spaced barely a car length and a half apart, maybe 15 feet, 20 tops and when driven in anger they all pretty much acted like a series of Chicago Boxes. Also, increasing width slaloms on tight courses = teh SUCK.

So how did the course drive? Well, it was extremely busy, and I mean EXTREMELY busy, EXTREMELY busy. While I generally am up for a good challenge, this was a challenge unlike anything I have ever been put up against. My comment to my buddy in the Evo after my first run only highlighted the gravity of the challenge.

Before I give you that comment (it is a good one in typical Whiskey Hyperbole ), I want to be very clear on this one fact: I really actually enjoyed this course because it is fresh, to me, coming from a quarter mile square pad known as the Nationals site which usually features fast, open, flowing courses. We do NOT get these types of courses in the Nebraska Region and it is nice to be constantly experiencing something new and pushing the boundaries of the driver and car setup. I wont be using this as a gauge for the inevitable Spring Nationals runs since the car was very well setup for Nationals sized events and this event wasn't representative of anything I'd expect at a Nebraska Region event let alone a National tour. What I did use this event for was getting used to the car. One huge difference between today and the Solo Super Weekend was temperature. Track temp was about 90ºF and air temps in the high 70ºs which felt like high 90ºs after last weeks rather warm and balmy 35º-40º days and the mid 50's of the Solo Super Weekend. The car felt noticeably less nervous and I'm sure track temp played a large part of that since the tires were able to actually get warm enough to grip. The car still feels a bit on edge but only exhibited understeer in the tighter portions of the course when provoked by stupid and clumsy moves. I ended up tweaking the shock settings in the front and dropped them a quarter turn on my last run and ran within a tenth of a second of my fastest run with noticeably better car control.

Anyway, when I got done with my first run, the inevitable question from my buddy in the Evo (was near the end of the run group) was "how was it?" Me being the smartass that I am said: "It's like threading a needle........................... from space................... in a thunderstorm....................... while being blind.................... and hamfisted." The look on his face was absolutely comical. Seriously, I was at a quarter tank of gas so the car without me in it was probably 3500lbs, add in my 270lb body, add tightness to the course, then add some more and what did you expect? It was an unbelievably huge challenge to keep the car on course let alone on line!

So here are videos from three of my six runs. Turns out that leaving the GoPro on while on course kills the batteries and I didn't realize it until after I got back into the grid for my first run of the afternoon heats.

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - 28 April 2013 - #23 STX - Run 1 - YouTube

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - 28 April 2013 - #23 STX - Run 2 - YouTube

2009 Mustang GT Autocross - 28 April 2013 - #23 STX - Run 3 - YouTube

While the results have not been posted yet, I do know that after the first run group I had the second fastest time of the day, but after the second run group went (and before the start of our second set of runs) that I had lost that spot to more than a few cars. I honestly have no idea where I ended up. Between our second set of runs and the last runs of the other run group I was 11th in PAX and first in class. Until the results are posted, I wont know for sure though.

So what's next? Well, to be honest, there is another DMVR event at the Iowa Speedway that I may attend for some more seat time before Spring Nationals. The Iowa Speedway is a hell of a lot closer than Oskaloosa is (2 hour drive instead of 3+) but the surface is sealed asphalt where Osky is Airport taxiway concrete with slightly smaller aggregate than the Nats site. Osky is a good comparison for a local site to the Nationals site. Nothing new planned for the car setup wise.

I'll let you know if any photos get posted. There were a ton of people there with Cameras, several with decent cameras, but who knows if any will post any of them in a place where I can find it. I'll also let you guys know when the official results get posted.

Questions, comments, concerns, etc, feel free to post!