To build or to buy

[BruceH]

Here's one way to make a low budget big bore. Start with these pistons: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Rous...ash=item2a3c988918:g:4wYAAOxyBotTbSC~&vxp=mtr

Add rods like these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-MODULA...ash=item2a599ce1c3:g:aykAAOSw7NNUALs1&vxp=mtr

The compression height is .012" more than you want. Easily rectified by milling the tops. This will also reduce the 5cc dish. 1.220" is stock compression height. The pins are correct for stock sized rods.

Add in a set of 5.933" forged rods for another $350 or so and you have rods and pistons for under $850. Use your crank, add a boss block, bearings, and machine shop costs for about $3400 total. It would save you some money but you would only have 304 cubic inches and wouldn't have a forged crank.

The pistons are 380 grams which is less than normal pistons would weigh. IIRC they are usually around 500 but I'm not 100% on that. Using a stock crank would also save weight on the rotating assembly due to the absence of the center counterweights.

IMO you would have a very quick revving Big Bore that would produce good power with 304 inches of displacement. It would also be strong enough for boost if wanted.

 

[MassMustang]

Here's one way to make a low budget big bore. Start with these pistons: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-Rous...ash=item2a3c988918:g:4wYAAOxyBotTbSC~&vxp=mtr

Add rods like these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-MODULA...ash=item2a599ce1c3:g:aykAAOSw7NNUALs1&vxp=mtr

The compression height is .012" more than you want. Easily rectified by milling the tops. This will also reduce the 5cc dish. 1.220" is stock compression height. The pins are correct for stock sized rods.

Add in a set of 5.933" forged rods for another $350 or so and you have rods and pistons for under $850. Use your crank, add a boss block, bearings, and machine shop costs for about $3400 total. It would save you some money but you would only have 304 cubic inches and wouldn't have a forged crank.

The pistons are 380 grams which is less than normal pistons would weigh. IIRC they are usually around 500 but I'm not 100% on that. Using a stock crank would also save weight on the rotating assembly due to the absence of the center counterweights.

IMO you would have a very quick revving Big Bore that would produce good power with 304 inches of displacement. It would also be strong enough for boost if wanted.

Can you do something similar with a stock 3V block and crank? I'm only looking for 550hp at the crank with a centri blower. I think the rods are the only weak link in that setup, but I'd like to pickup some extra cubes if possible.

 

[Onelildude]

With the info in here i'll just keep my 3v and build it using the info in here and on other post. I'd like to have a 5.3 as it sounds better than saying "I have the 4.6", but my 4.6 with the right components and a blower will still do wonders. Bruce thanks again for the help...and I will build a hell of an engine for the cost of the B53.

I just saw this on modmaxracing...What's your thoughts? Is it doable with a close to stock sized 281?

Bobby Oberlander turned to ModMax when he wanted to build up his dream Mustang and needed the right parts for his engine combination. His 4.6 Boss Block has a 3.700" bore that is combined with a 3.800" stroke for 324ci. With his turbocharger and other goodies he has been able to get 879 horsepower and 1000 ft/lbs of torque from his toy. Glad we were able to come up with a custom Diamond Piston to work with his boost and E85 with double coatings, upgraded Heavy Wall pins, and other various engine goodies to finish out his build. His car was featured recently in Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords. Here is an excerpt from the article:


Oberlander acquired a Ford Racing Boss 5.0 modular block and dropped it off, along with all rotating parts and pieces with Todd Maschmeir out of Oak Grove, Missouri, to be machined and assembled. Once the short block was back in Oberlander’s hands, he and friend Welch assembled the top end with a pair of Ed’s Speed Shop Stage 3 CNC cylinder heads and custom cams, a Ford Racing intake and throttle body, and MSD coil packs. Oberlander took his time breaking in the new engine before going in for a custom tune. The Three-Valve boasts 326 ci with a Kellogg crankshaft, Manley Performance H-beam connecting rods, Diamond 2618 pistons, and ARP hardware. Oberlander’s GT makes envy-inducing horsepower thanks to an On3 Performance single 70mm turbo with a 50mm blow-off valve, and a 38mm wastegate.

 

[mike4.0]

Crazy info in here, absolutely love it

 

[BruceH]

Can you do something similar with a stock 3V block and crank? I'm only looking for 550hp at the crank with a centri blower. I think the rods are the only weak link in that setup, but I'd like to pickup some extra cubes if possible.

Yes you can. Many of us have done just that. My .030 over 1L block build that made 699rwhp was with a stock crank, Mahle pistons, and "Eagle" rods. They were sold to me as Eagle but looked the same as any other no name rod. All the rods are forged in China nowadays. The finish machining is done elsewhere.

My first build was a stock block, stock crank, and leftover Saleen cp pistons and Manley rods. There are many options and most of them are good. Start searching ebay and when you recognize a good deal jump on it.

Jeremy has a stock crank motor that's over 700rwhp and he's been running it for quite awhile. I'm trying to think of others but I can't right now. A build doesn't have to be expensive or complicated.

 

[BruceH]

Here are a few of the builds I've posted about that included a stock block. All have had a stock crank except for my current build and I think if I was to do it over I'd go stock stroke. I just happened upon a fantastic deal for a 3.75 kellog crank and 5.85 manley rods so I used them. I probably should of sold them and used one of the stock cranks that are in my garage.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114963&highlight=build

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61220&highlight=build

There are many more builds on this forum that are similar. oneyedwille had a real good thread about his first build. It was seeing his build that convinced me I could do one. I didn't post my first build on this forum. It was on mustangforums at one time but I might of deleted all of it in a moment of anger over stupid shit they do for vendors.

 

[MassMustang]

Thanks for all the info, Bruce!

 

[Boone]

You guys have me off of the 5.0 Cammer block and back onto the BBB. Now I need to address my concerns with the BBB.

Since my car is a corner carver, can motor lowering mounts (from Steeda or UPR) be used in conjunction with the BBB mounts to help lower the engine and the resulting CG in the car?

I was looking at the Maximum Motorsports K-member as a an easy upgrade while the engine is out. Any issues with clearance from the BBB mounts and lowering mounts? I did see where Bruce had an aftermarket K-member, but I don't recall the manufacturer.

I'm planning to put a Canton Road Race oil pan on, but I read a thread where the 3V scraper or windage tray wouldn't fit (believe it was Bruce again, since he's tried every combination known to man). Any issues on the pan I should look out for, even though I'm going back with all my 3V bottom end from the Livernois stroker kit?

Lowering the engine and stiffining the K-member would offset the weight gain from the BBB a little. I am trying to avoid the "Mustangs can't corner" stigma by keeping up with the Bimmers in the corners before I blow them away on the straights with a deafening display of V8 power. I have a local Vette Z06 and a track Camaro in my crosshairs as well.

 

[Boone]

I leave the knock sensors turned on, same with rear o2 sensors, cat and valve protection. I've even run 92 pump with boost and 11 and 12:1. The tune was kept conservative. I'm of the opinion that leaving all the protections on helps the motor to survive should something go wrong.

I believe I read the knock sensors must be deleted in a 5.0Cammer. Can anyone verify this, and, if so, that's enough to steer me to the BBB as if I weren't already convinced.

 

[BruceH]

You guys have me off of the 5.0 Cammer block and back onto the BBB. Now I need to address my concerns with the BBB.

Since my car is a corner carver, can motor lowering mounts (from Steeda or UPR) be used in conjunction with the BBB mounts to help lower the engine and the resulting CG in the car?

I was looking at the Maximum Motorsports K-member as a an easy upgrade while the engine is out. Any issues with clearance from the BBB mounts and lowering mounts? I did see where Bruce had an aftermarket K-member, but I don't recall the manufacturer.

I'm planning to put a Canton Road Race oil pan on, but I read a thread where the 3V scraper or windage tray wouldn't fit (believe it was Bruce again, since he's tried every combination known to man). Any issues on the pan I should look out for, even though I'm going back with all my 3V bottom end from the Livernois stroker kit?

Lowering the engine and stiffining the K-member would offset the weight gain from the BBB a little. I am trying to avoid the "Mustangs can't corner" stigma by keeping up with the Bimmers in the corners before I blow them away on the straights with a deafening display of V8 power. I have a local Vette Z06 and a track Camaro in my crosshairs as well.

I had an aftermarket k member for about 3 weeks and it wasn't used with the BBB. The BBB is using a 13 GT500 oil pan and windage tray/gasket. It fits just like stock but holds more oil. It was needed due to the main bolts not having studs for the stock 3v windage tray. You could get by with just the 13/14 GT500 scraper/windage tray/gasket. The whole setup with pan, tray, and oil pickup was about $165 from FRPP. Order it while you are ordering the block, head changing kit, and motor mount adapters. More than $1650 from FRPP gets you free shipping.

Todd was the one who had an expensive aftermarket oil pan that didn't fit and didn't work with the stock oil pickup or stock gasket. The whole thing was designed without any thought about being able to fit it in a Mustang.

 

[BruceH]

I believe I read the knock sensors must be deleted in a 5.0Cammer. Can anyone verify this, and, if so, that's enough to steer me to the BBB as if I weren't already convinced.

The BBB only has one knock sensor boss that's threaded. It's located in the center. It does have two undrilled bosses that can be drilled and tapped pretty easily. I'm fairly certain that the Cammer has two bosses just like a 3v. The only ones that had shaved knock sensor bosses were the Terminator blocks iirc.

 

[Onelildude]

Bruce unless i've missed it whats a good compression ratio i can run until i go boosted?

 

[BruceH]

Bruce unless i've missed it whats a good compression ratio i can run until i go boosted?

I like higher compression. I've run from 9.4 to 12. It's a debateable topic. I'm of the opinion that high compression is fine with boost as long as the tune isn't crazy with spark advance and the knock sensors are turned on. More compression means more cylinder pressure with less boost. This means less parasitic draw from the supercharger and lower iats.

I would go with a minimum of stock compression which is a -6.5cc dish with stock bore and stroke along with a .03x" head gasket. A flat top piston with 3v valve relief will net 11:1 compression with stock head gaskets and stock bore and stroke. My experience has been that going from stock 9.86 to 11 for compression only resulted in about 10 hp na. I believe this is partly due to the shrouded valves caused by the small bore of a 4.6. However, the compression increase will really show up when boost is added. Boost force feeds air which gets around the shrouded valve issue. It's one reason why 4.6 motors respond so well to boost imo.

 

[MassMustang]

Onelildude - Any updates regarding "build vs buy"?