Vorshlag 2011 Mustang 5.0 GT - track/autocross/street Project

[dontlifttoshift]

<snip> Long story short: OUSCI was very frustrating to our entire group that went, which were all racers. <snip>

I am not going to pretend that you were the only racers there, but it is a street car event that was being run for the first time in a new venue. I have heard from a handful of regulars that things didn't run as smooth as they have in the past. I didn't go this year but have volunteered in the past and was pretty impressed with how things ran.....but I'm not a racer either.

Nobody wants to hear the truth (not my "no holds barred" version of it).

Actually, I do. Your ASCS review was spot on and that organization still can't seem to find its ass with both hands.

Technically, USCA didn't ban the wing, just its location, however it likely is ineffective mounted directly to the decklid. Throw the ESP spoiler back on and the S197 is legal, at least from what I can tell.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

I am not going to pretend that you were the only racers there, but it is a street car event that was being run for the first time in a new venue. I have heard from a handful of regulars that things didn't run as smooth as they have in the past. I didn't go this year but have volunteered in the past and was pretty impressed with how things ran.....but I'm not a racer either.

It was so bad I can't even talk about it.

Actually, I do. Your ASCS review was spot on and that organization still can't seem to find its ass with both hands.

Yea, ASCS lost my business for life at that half-assed event.... more like quarter-assed. Optima wasn't that bad, of course, but it was still far from perfect. Far.

Technically, USCA didn't ban the wing, just its location, however it likely is ineffective mounted directly to the decklid. Throw the ESP spoiler back on and the S197 is legal, at least from what I can tell.

Yes, they did ban our wing and all effective wings... because the chord limit they specified (8" max) is itty bitty. The wings we've use (AJ Hartman carbon) have a 14" chord, which is SIX INCHES too deep. That's a big chunk.

I've owned and installed a lot of wings on a lot of cars, but never one that tiny. 8" chord is little eBay junk. Worthless. Effectively every single entrant that had an aftermarket wing now has to remove it. That was probably 30% of the field.

But they didn't ban anything meaningful, like.... here I go, falling into this trap again. NO. I'm not going to get into it... :|

 

[csamsh]

And....the Vorshlag ESP spoiler, which is now the Mark Council ESP spoiler, is also not USCA legal. What kind of a world do we live in where an SCCA class called street prepared has some looser rules than an ULTIMATE street car event?

Also interesting, and fishy- the organizers will not answer any request to publicly explain why the aero has been banned. Instead, they told me to just "come do or event anyway, you'll have fun." Yeah...which translates to "we like your money, just not your car. Oh your car has ac, radio, glass, carpet, 4 seats, and is comfortable? Nah that piece of lexan on the back makes it a racecar."

 

[dontlifttoshift]

<<<not defending USCA, don't take it that way.

I liked the wings, I didn't have a problem with them and was planning to purchase a Hartman wing for my 65 that may hit the road this summer. There is a pretty vocal group that doesn't want to see racecars at street car events. In their mind wings, giant spoiler, splitter (they will be next I imagine) adds up to racecars. These same people bring race car levels of power and sometimes racecar levels of suspension parts, but that's ok. These same people also #becausestreetcar from their tow vehicles on their way to the event. I don't get the hypocrisy but I don't get to wound up in it because these same people are friends and customers. USCA is doing what they think they have to do to ensure their longevity. I personally didn't have a problem with the way things were and am disappointed in the changes but I will still attend the their events in Michigan and Road America if the schedule allows it because they are a damn good time for a guy like me who is _not_ a racer.

I don't like rules pertaining to my cars and I don't have a spot in my life for racecars, If I wanted both of those things NASA and SCCA are both great venues. Terry, I believe that's why Danger Zone, right?

Mark, you have been around long enough to know the "street" in street prepared has nothing to with street cars anymore, I would fully support the combining of SP and P. It is weird that USCA picked a seemingly arbitrary number like 6" for spoilers, though.

Do you really think USCA owes you an answer regarding their take an aero? Serious question.

If I remember right, everyone that attended USCA at TMS did have a great time, right?

 

[csamsh]

Yeah I think "we" not "I" should have an answer. It's an illogical rule that is not consistent with the rest of the rules set and which eliminates many of the fast cars from last year, and many other cars in general. This rule makes as much sense as saying "no aftermarket turbos." I don't have a problem with a ruling body making rules, but they could at least say "we don't want to tell you why we made that rule" instead of ignoring some people and requesting others to call to get an explanation. It just seems like there is something to hide, and it's not cool to be sneaky and then ask for money. My problem is much more in the how than the what.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I really want to hear this story. Mostly because I decided not to do the Michigan event (and spend the money to do it) and it would be nice to be justified.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Mark, I agree about the rule not making sense but I don't see a need for them to explain it to me/us.....It's their sandbox. I'd rather them just clam up and not back it up rather than pull some asinine excuse out of their ass and pass it off as reason. See diff covers in ESP.

Again, I'm not a racer and I don't take it that serious. YMMV

DOB, the event at MIS ran smoothly, plenty of seat time, no BS, and clear winners. The finale in Vegas was a different story.....not even taking Fair's experience into account.

Sorry for the thread jack, back to Vorshlag.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Mark, I agree about the rule not making sense but I don't see a need for them to explain it to me/us.....It's their sandbox. I'd rather them just clam up and not back it up rather than pull some asinine excuse out of their ass and pass it off as reason. See diff covers in ESP.

Again, I'm not a racer and I don't take it that serious. YMMV

DOB, the event at MIS ran smoothly, plenty of seat time, no BS, and clear winners. The finale in Vegas was a different story.....not even taking Fair's experience into account.

Sorry for the thread jack, back to Vorshlag.

I know this is "optimistic" but if I show up to race, I race to win (anything, not just cars). I don't show to just be there. I can do a track day and do that. So if I had gone to MIS it would have been to win. And if I did win I would of been hella-pissed when I got to Vegas from what I gather.

 

[csamsh]

I know this is "optimistic" but if I show up to race, I race to win (anything, not just cars). I don't show to just be there. I can do a track day and do that. So if I had gone to MIS it would have been to win. And if I did win I would of been hella-pissed when I got to Vegas from what I gather.

Kind of my sentiment about the "exhibition" class.

Dontlift...I absolutely see your point of view as well. We are both in agreement that they can do whatever they want with their rulesset, and they really don't have to tell anyone why, but...I still am always more open to being pacified than I am to being conquered.

 

[Norm Peterson]

With the Dale Earnhardt-themed Monte Carlo running upward of 149 mph on street tires at Daytona (with its amazing lack of runoff room in places), it might take more than a little pacifying to convince me that they got the aero rule right. It feels like a knee-jerk solution that could bring on as many problems as it solves, with the new ones being potentially more serious.


Norm

 

[Department Of Boost]

With the Dale Earnhardt-themed Monte Carlo running upward of 149 mph on street tires at Daytona (with its amazing lack of runoff room in places), it might take more than a little pacifying to convince me that they got the aero rule right. It feels like a knee-jerk solution that could bring on as many problems as it solves, with the new ones being potentially more serious.


Norm

I've gone 200 at Daytona on street tires.

 

[Norm Peterson]

With 100% OE aero?


Norm

 

[Boaisy]

With the Dale Earnhardt-themed Monte Carlo running upward of 149 mph on street tires at Daytona (with its amazing lack of runoff room in places), it might take more than a little pacifying to convince me that they got the aero rule right. It feels like a knee-jerk solution that could bring on as many problems as it solves, with the new ones being potentially more serious.


Norm

Are we talking about the Monte Carlo SS that some of them wrapped the NASCAR decals on? Didn't think those could reach 149.

http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/chevrolet/monte_carlo/1711891.html

 

[Norm Peterson]

Dan Howe's car. Schwartz chassis and some suspension modification and tuning help from a guy who has NASCAR-level experience with that sort of thing.

I know Dan from the Pro-Touring and Monte Carlo SS boards, and he'd happened to mention the safety implications associated with running at that speed sans cage. Seems only right that aero should be considered for its safety aspects as well.

Norm

 

[Department Of Boost]

With 100% OE aero?


Norm

Yes, but it was a motorcycle.

200 isn't really that fast at Daytona, let alone 150. Even at 200 you're just hanging out. Yeah, I would be a little white knuckled going door to door bumper to bumper in a NASCAR, but that isn't what we're talking about at all are we? The place is HUGE. And it's not like you really need downforce on the banking. I wouldn't be at all concerned with running a Mustang around there with stock aero at 150. I could probably text while doing it. So could a lot of other people.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Dan Howe's car. Schwartz chassis and some suspension modification and tuning help from a guy who has NASCAR-level experience with that sort of thing.

I know Dan from the Pro-Touring and Monte Carlo SS boards, and he'd happened to mention the safety implications associated with running at that speed sans cage. Seems only right that aero should be considered for its safety aspects as well.


Norm

I wouldn't advise doing it without a cage and belts. Just like I wouldn't advise doing it without top shelf motorcycle safety gear. That doesn't effect the chances of a crash though. Just the outcome.

 

[modernbeat]

Mark, I agree about the rule not making sense but I don't see a need for them to explain it to me/us.....It's their sandbox. I'd rather them just clam up and not back it up rather than pull some asinine excuse out of their ass and pass it off as reason...

Well, their rule set is fairly fluid. Even at the same event they change, change back and change again. And they have said so in phone calls to our customers that the future rules are fluid. So effectively, they have no rules, unless they don't want you to win. Then the rules come into play and you are out. Also, take a look at their sponsorship sticker rules.

If you want to go to a spectacle, the Optima events are there. If you want to compete, go elsewhere.

On the topic of safety, there were numerous safety issues with both the track and braking portions of the event. The focus on removing "racecar" components so the cars are more "streetcar" will invite cars with less safety equipment. I'm worried that the lack of driving talent, the lack of safety equipment and the safety issues with the competition will cause some huge issues in the future. I doubt that a TV show wants to show a competitor being injured or killed.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Well, their rule set is fairly fluid. Even at the same event they change, change back and change again. And they have said so in phone calls to our customers that the future rules are fluid. So effectively, they have no rules, unless they don't want you to win. Then the rules come into play and you are out. Also, take a look at their sponsorship sticker rules.

I really can't dispute that. I haven't experienced the "we don't want you to win" or heard about it until this thread but I can see how you could feel that way. I'm not saying it did or didn't happen, I don't know. I believe that gripe is rooted in the D&E portion, I too think that is broken, but again there sandbox. I feel it is important to note that the USCA series is an offshoot from OUSCI which has always been _Optima's_ deal. I don't know how Jimi's role changes between the two but it does. Sponsorship sticker rules have been rewritten since the initial 2015 rules were posted. They read like this now....

18. Car livery - In addition to the required OSUSC decal kit, all cars are welcome to display​

logos, branding or any graphics that support manufacturers and services in a tasteful​

manner. There are no graphic size limitations when promoting any company or service​

that does not compete with the current OSUSC major sponsors or partners. However,​

graphics that​

do compete with current major sponsors must be no larger than 100​

square inches and are limited to two graphics on the entire car with only one allowed per​

side, front or back. Personally owned companies and build shops are not restricted.

If you want to go to a spectacle, the Optima events are there. If you want to compete, go elsewhere.

That's pretty much it, the SRSBZNS crowd likely won't be happy with their USCA experience. 90% of the crowd on this forum probably would be, though.

On the topic of safety, there were numerous safety issues with both the track and braking portions of the event. The focus on removing "racecar" components so the cars are more "streetcar" will invite cars with less safety equipment. I'm worried that the lack of driving talent, the lack of safety equipment and the safety issues with the competition will cause some huge issues in the future. I doubt that a TV show wants to show a competitor being injured or killed.

Agree. Shipka hit the wall pretty hard (after the bus stop, I think) and came out unscathed but his car is pretty well equipped. I don't think the Wrangler car or driver would have fared so well.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The Monte is supposedly getting a cage for this year, Dan's own words. But I wonder how many others with more or less similar performance aren't/won't.


Norm

 

[modernbeat]

The Monte is supposedly getting a cage for this year, Dan's own words. But I wonder how many others with more or less similar performance aren't/won't...

And that's just it. How streetable can a "street" car be with real safety equipment in it? As a builder of racecars, the cage is really what separates a competition track car from a street car. It's possible to have both, but it's a very, very difficult build and often the safety aspect is compromised. The competitions can be setup so the cars don't need so much safety equipment, and can be more streetable, but will they do it?