You may change your opinion of Livernois...

[94tbird]

*I cut and pasted this from the other forum, I'm slowly losing feeling in my fingers from all this typing* lol

Let me see if I can frame together the events a little better so that it makes more sense. Warning though there is a lot here to read.

This starts before the heads ever get bolted to the car. While dealing with a different customer on stage 3 heads where Livernois made mistakes in sending out the correct flow information with the heads Mark is in the process of getting a set of heads at the same time. (For the record we took full blame on that mistake and error in that situation as we did indeed screw up and ended up refunding the money on that set of heads)

While this other thread is going on

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...ight=livernois

Due to all this with our error with this customers set of heads their becomes a question in Marks mind that his heads will be as good as they are supposed to be. Mark decides that he will get the heads independently checked out at this point to verify they are indeed what he ordered and wants. He offers to also post up the information for everybody to see after the results are in. We very much appreciated that. So Mark finds an independent head shop Superior Automotive who goes through the heads and checks them all out to make sure they are indeed what they are supposed to be. Superior Automotive disassembles the heads, measures them up, checks sizing and so forth on parts and does flow work on them. Here is the follow up to that test-

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...ernois&page=10

Based on what Superior Automotive said it seems to me that the heads were spot on and pretty good in their opinion. During all that testing we even decided to swap valve springs out for an even better set of more race oriented springs just because we wanted the heads to be bullet proof for what Mark was doing.

After this the heads get sent over to Mark's engine builder. From that point the engine gets assembled and built. This was where my questioning came from in regards to how the cams would have not been found to be bent at this point because the engine builder would have had to have done piston to valve and taken the cams in and out while mocking up the head with test springs and an indicator. Then turning the engine over would have shown it seems if the cams were binding at this point.

At this point the engine gets assembled and for a 1-2 week (don't know) period the car is attempted to be started without any luck. At that point somebody at the shop decides the cam on the one side is bent and it needs to be replaced. So Mark calls and lets me know this. I'm slightly confounded by this but I tell Mark to send them back so we can send them for warranty. At this point Mark who understandably just wants to get the car running wants to get any cams in the mean time and asks if we have stock cams here at Livernois we can send him out. I tell him yes and he pays to have them 2nd day shipped out there.

Upon receiving the Comp cams back I notice that the cam has kind of torn up journals. (Knowing now that the engine was attempted to start for 1-2 weeks with all that cranking it makes sense to me why they were starting to get tore up) Nothing horrible at this point but to the degree that I cannot put it in v-blocks and spin it over and get an accurate reading. So the cams are sent back to Comp to check them out.

In this time Mark and his engine guy have the new stock cams and they install those and get the engine running after fixing the other actual issue that was causing the no start condition. At this point the engine runs for some period of time and dyno runs and then fails (I don't accurately know the timeframe here). What seems to be an oil pump failure at first. After getting more information it turns out that the original builder that installed the heads had used stock head gaskets and not the big bore gaskets that would be required on a build with a 3.700 bore. This caused a hammering of the pistons into the gasket and head. The oil pump failure obviously caused some oil starvation at this point. (For further evidence of this I'm getting my hands on either pictures or the actual pistons from the engine) The top of the piston has been crushed down almost .035 around the ring where the gasket was hitting it. Obviously this is not a good thing and not right.

I did not know any of this information at the time when the heads were sent back. I knew there had been a possible issue with the cams and at that time I had no clue as to why the engine actually failed other than hearing an oil pump had broke. Now though knowing the pistons were hitting the head gasket makes sense that oil pump gears would break and starve the motor for oil.

When I looked at the heads I noted the cam journals being pretty tore up and told Mark that the one head was really bad. At that point we started this whole thing.

My initial reason for looking deeper into this was that it just did not all add up in my head. When Comp first came back and said the cams were not warrantied for being bent but for a lobe issue that was unrelated I started questioning where this info came from about the cams being bent. Then after thinking back on the whole thing I remembered that the heads were sent to Superior to be fully checked out and ended up getting pretty good reviews from them. Then thinking about how the engine builder would not have been able to do piston to valve had the cam been binding was my second clue as to maybe I did not have the whole story. Finally after hearing about the wrong head gaskets being installed and the pistons getting damaged and breaking the oil pump in the process causing the oil starvation I realized that my initial suspicions about everything were at least in the ballpark.

This is one of the reasons I said initially that I wanted to dig up all the facts for myself and get the full story. In cases that are cut and dry where Livernois has indeed made a mistake than its a no questions asked deal we will always 100% honor the warranty and fix whatever it is. Unfortunately as in a case like this sometimes a little detective work is necessary to get the full story and to be able to make the proper assessment accurately based on all the facts. I'm just doing my job and trying to give everybody a fair shake since that is all I would ask for myself.

As always if anybody has any questions or needs me to try and clarify something I would be more than glad to.

Thanks
Mike

Thanks Mike

 

[ChevyKiller]

*I cut and pasted this from the other forum, I'm slowly losing feeling in my fingers from all this typing* lol

Let me see if I can frame together the events a little better so that it makes more sense. Warning though there is a lot here to read.

This starts before the heads ever get bolted to the car. While dealing with a different customer on stage 3 heads where Livernois made mistakes in sending out the correct flow information with the heads Mark is in the process of getting a set of heads at the same time. (For the record we took full blame on that mistake and error in that situation as we did indeed screw up and ended up refunding the money on that set of heads)

While this other thread is going on

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...ight=livernois

Due to all this with our error with this customers set of heads their becomes a question in Marks mind that his heads will be as good as they are supposed to be. Mark decides that he will get the heads independently checked out at this point to verify they are indeed what he ordered and wants. He offers to also post up the information for everybody to see after the results are in. We very much appreciated that. So Mark finds an independent head shop Superior Automotive who goes through the heads and checks them all out to make sure they are indeed what they are supposed to be. Superior Automotive disassembles the heads, measures them up, checks sizing and so forth on parts and does flow work on them. Here is the follow up to that test-

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...ernois&page=10

Based on what Superior Automotive said it seems to me that the heads were spot on and pretty good in their opinion. During all that testing we even decided to swap valve springs out for an even better set of more race oriented springs just because we wanted the heads to be bullet proof for what Mark was doing.

After this the heads get sent over to Mark's engine builder. From that point the engine gets assembled and built. This was where my questioning came from in regards to how the cams would have not been found to be bent at this point because the engine builder would have had to have done piston to valve and taken the cams in and out while mocking up the head with test springs and an indicator. Then turning the engine over would have shown it seems if the cams were binding at this point.

At this point the engine gets assembled and for a 1-2 week (don't know) period the car is attempted to be started without any luck. At that point somebody at the shop decides the cam on the one side is bent and it needs to be replaced. So Mark calls and lets me know this. I'm slightly confounded by this but I tell Mark to send them back so we can send them for warranty. At this point Mark who understandably just wants to get the car running wants to get any cams in the mean time and asks if we have stock cams here at Livernois we can send him out. I tell him yes and he pays to have them 2nd day shipped out there.

Upon receiving the Comp cams back I notice that the cam has kind of torn up journals. (Knowing now that the engine was attempted to start for 1-2 weeks with all that cranking it makes sense to me why they were starting to get tore up) Nothing horrible at this point but to the degree that I cannot put it in v-blocks and spin it over and get an accurate reading. So the cams are sent back to Comp to check them out.

In this time Mark and his engine guy have the new stock cams and they install those and get the engine running after fixing the other actual issue that was causing the no start condition. At this point the engine runs for some period of time and dyno runs and then fails (I don't accurately know the timeframe here). What seems to be an oil pump failure at first. After getting more information it turns out that the original builder that installed the heads had used stock head gaskets and not the big bore gaskets that would be required on a build with a 3.700 bore. This caused a hammering of the pistons into the gasket and head. The oil pump failure obviously caused some oil starvation at this point. (For further evidence of this I'm getting my hands on either pictures or the actual pistons from the engine) The top of the piston has been crushed down almost .035 around the ring where the gasket was hitting it. Obviously this is not a good thing and not right.

I did not know any of this information at the time when the heads were sent back. I knew there had been a possible issue with the cams and at that time I had no clue as to why the engine actually failed other than hearing an oil pump had broke. Now though knowing the pistons were hitting the head gasket makes sense that oil pump gears would break and starve the motor for oil.

When I looked at the heads I noted the cam journals being pretty tore up and told Mark that the one head was really bad. At that point we started this whole thing.

My initial reason for looking deeper into this was that it just did not all add up in my head. When Comp first came back and said the cams were not warrantied for being bent but for a lobe issue that was unrelated I started questioning where this info came from about the cams being bent. Then after thinking back on the whole thing I remembered that the heads were sent to Superior to be fully checked out and ended up getting pretty good reviews from them. Then thinking about how the engine builder would not have been able to do piston to valve had the cam been binding was my second clue as to maybe I did not have the whole story. Finally after hearing about the wrong head gaskets being installed and the pistons getting damaged and breaking the oil pump in the process causing the oil starvation I realized that my initial suspicions about everything were at least in the ballpark.

This is one of the reasons I said initially that I wanted to dig up all the facts for myself and get the full story. In cases that are cut and dry where Livernois has indeed made a mistake than its a no questions asked deal we will always 100% honor the warranty and fix whatever it is. Unfortunately as in a case like this sometimes a little detective work is necessary to get the full story and to be able to make the proper assessment accurately based on all the facts. I'm just doing my job and trying to give everybody a fair shake since that is all I would ask for myself.

As always if anybody has any questions or needs me to try and clarify something I would be more than glad to.

Thanks
Mike

Mike it is absolute Bullshit that you are giving 'facts' based on what someone told you. Especially since that someone (adam at ST Motorsports) has 0 evidence to back up his claim. It is his CLAIM that RET put the stock head gaskets in the car. I have 2 shops that swear my motor had wrong clearances from the get go - so who's lying? Someone is - it is not fair for you to come in here and say I used the wrong head gaskets when you have no idea what is the truth or not. Hell, I don't even know for a fact which one is lying so how could you?

Both you and Eric Brooks are stating as fact something Adam told you he 'thinks' - the whole ordeal I had with JDM years ago was 100% based on what Adam told me as well so I have learned my lesson there.

I have said from the beginning that it wasn't really Livernois 'fault' - but it sure in the hell isn't MY fault a 6K dollar set of heads didn't last for more than 1 day. Your days and weeks analogy is BS as well. The car was only attempted to start for 1 day and only put on the dyno twice in the last 10 months! I don't think you are a bad shop, in fact, I still think you guys are good but I have learned a very valuable lesson I am going to share in the tech section I wish I would have known years ago.

 

[lostsoul]

Damn.. I'm really thinking about keeping the stock engine in SYT# 2.

Though these threads are a "he said she said", there are tons of tech info and important info to be had.

I completely feel for you Mark. Something happen and someone needs to own up to it no matter who is at fault. There are people that can pay and get setup and run without issues. Then there's people like us that get shit for luck and you wrap greedy shops around that and you get bad experiences.

Some people say you should not bag a shop, but IF they are at fault then it should be told.

1) it makes you feel better
2) it warns others what to look out for

The last shop (force fed Performance (Sacramento) Tried to charge me an extra $300 to install procharger AFTER charging me for engine installation! When I told him it was installed before he received the car he said.. ohhh.. and took it off the price like it was made up in his head. Not to mention tuning a built car with 15# at 470rwhp and letting me leave with a check engine light!

And we all know about MMR ( Fuck MMR!)

Then we have dynotuning.com in [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rohnert Park that charged me $700 to tune over an exhaust leak(this was even after I told them I think I had one!!!)

Then we have SpeedFreaks(out of business) that caused the exhaust leak.. ohh and tuned over it.. more $$$ wasted

Then before that I took it to the ST [/FONT]Motorsports. Drove it all the way there 7 hours, had someone take me back 2 weeks later. Was told how fast my car was... Went into limip mode out of the driveway! After 3 other attempts I was able to limp home. After paying lots of $$ of course.

Sooooo.. moral or oral of the story is, that if it aint your fault someone should man up and make it right. racing part or not. There are took many crooks in this business and people need to stand up more... I know I should have =-/

 

[kleistang]

lol wtf is going on chevykiller is like in a bar fight punching and kicking everywhere ?

i support DIY then you can blame yourself just like i did.

 

[mike@livernois]

*Cut and paste from the other forum*

Well this thread has definitely gone up and down and all over the place. As you guys know by now I'm kind of long winded at best. Sorry. lol

After getting to see the pictures of the pistons that were posted in the other thread on S197 and seeing the ring at the edge of the piston from the gasket it at least confirmed the information I had received from a very reliable source (Adam@ST) that the wrong head gasket had been used.

From a technical standpoint since the question was asked, normally in an engine the spec used for most high performance engines when it comes to piston to head clearance is going to be around .040. Now you can go a little tighter than that and get down close to .030 and the piston might just start to touch the head. But there are a lot of factors here that make up what you can get away with. Rod type, rod material, RPM range, piston weight, piston to wall clearance, etc. etc. etc.

If though the gasket hangs into the path of the piston then you have just most likely created .000 clearance for piston to head and that just will not work. The gasket will get hit by the piston and destruction will ensue. Again there are variables such as piston to deck clearance here as well. Bottom line is the gasket cannot be in the bore as it will cause damage.

In talking to Comp on the camshafts their warranty information relates to a machining issue in regards to finish and machining issues. But the camshafts measured very low in total runout or the cam being bent. This is what there inspection found. They did not find the cams were bent but had issued warranty because of the machining issue.

I have received further information from another member on this board that there was dialogue that took place between Mark and this other member that relates specifically to his oil pump failure and lack of oil pressure that caused the oil pressure to drop and the heads to get eaten up. This was in the form of a PM. This member kindly messaged me to let me know this had happened as he felt there was more information that was not on the table that he felt like should be out there. He told me he would send me that PM if I would like. I greatly appreciate him coming forward with that info.

In all of this I have come from a point of minimal to limited knowledge on what happened to what I feel is having a decent amount of information as it pertains to this enough to form an opinion and enough to know that Livernois was not at fault in any way. This was my goal from the beginning, to assess what information I could find and determine if indeed we had made some mistake and if we did to handle it. It took a while to gather enough information to get things straightened out but in the end I feel confident in what we have here.

The combination of having multiple hands work with, disassemble and check the heads and give them the passing grade plus then go to the engine builder who noted nothing wrong with them during his piston to valve checking makes me confident that the heads and cams were in good condition at that point of engine assembly. Getting the information from Comp that the cams were not bent but warrantied for a reason not related to that was another indicator. Finally getting the story on the engine and hearing about the issues with the assembly followed by the broken oil pump and then seeing the pictures of the damaged pistons from the head gasket were good confirmation for me that there were other issues here unrelated to anything Livernois had done.

The problem faced as a vendor in this situation is that this same thread titled "You may change your opinion of Livernois" on no less than 3 message boards creates a situation where regardless of the intent it puts Livernois in a very negative light. Just read the first pages of comments on any of the 3 forums and you can see just that. We have no issue in posting whatever information pertains to any dealings customers have with us. We try to always do a good job and handle everybody professionally. We hope that this reflects positively on us.

In any situation where it relates to warranty Livernois always 100% stands behinds it products if the case is clear cut that Livernois has made mistake. We will always first inspect and gather information before making any snap judgements on anything. We won't claim to be perfect and never will. While we strive to get there we are in fact still human. If we make a mistake we own up to it and handle it. In the event that something happens involving one of our products and we are not at fault we will still do whatever we can to try and help the customer out. I will always do whatever I can in my power to help a customer out because if I was the customer that is all I would ask for.

If anybody has any questions feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.

Thanks
Mike

 

[Steedman07]

The members that have good experiences should be posting up also, to let someone like me, a future customer possibly, here the good and the bad..

 

[Cali HP Addict]

Been biting my toung this whole time. When I started reading this I thought, oh geeze this sounds familiar. Started with Vortech, then JDM, ST Motorsports, Whipple?, Livernois and probably more along the way. Bottom line, the only common factor in all of these major vendor bashing threads is Mark. Sorry but it's true. If I was a vendor, I would go out of my way to avoid such a customer. I guess if he burns through everyone, he could buy a chevy with his massive bank account. Peace.

 

[Freaknazty]

The members that have good experiences should be posting up also, to let someone like me, a future customer possibly, here the good and the bad..

Well I can tell you this they have helped me on more than one occasion , and I can also say I have first hand knowledge of a defective product they have sold ( set of heads ) BUT I can also say that as soon as they received word on what was going on they were replaced asap by livernois . 07torchgt had a problem too now even though they sent the wrong head in the end they did figure out there left from right and sent the correct one lol j/k rick&mike

 

[94tbird]

The members that have good experiences should be posting up also, to let someone like me, a future customer possibly, here the good and the bad..

We have numerous times

 

[ZmanM3]

This sucks Mark, I hope you come to a satisfactory solution to this. I personally am very happy with my Livernois heads, I only wish you had the same success with yours.

 

[don_w]

The members that have good experiences should be posting up also, to let someone like me, a future customer possibly, here the good and the bad..

Back in 2006, I bought a set of heads from Livernois. Not long after they were installed, one of them developed a crack. We promptly notified Mike at Livernois, and after seeing a few photos, he determined that it was likely due to core shift, which after the CNC porting resulted in a thin wall. They immediately started making me a new pair of heads, without even waiting to get the cracked one back for a first hand inspection. They also went above and beyond to help defray some of the added costs to R&R the heads. That level of customer service sold me on them ever since.

And no... this thread has NOT changed my opinion of Livernois. I would have absolutely no hesitation going back to them again should the need arise. Simple as that.

 

[ChevyKiller]

Been biting my toung this whole time. When I started reading this I thought, oh geeze this sounds familiar. Started with Vortech, then JDM, ST Motorsports, Whipple?, Livernois and probably more along the way. Bottom line, the only common factor in all of these major vendor bashing threads is Mark. Sorry but it's true. If I was a vendor, I would go out of my way to avoid such a customer. I guess if he burns through everyone, he could buy a chevy with his massive bank account. Peace.

Actually the stock motor and vortech was the only time in my cars history I never had any problems.

My problems with JDM were 100% what adam was telling me and I was going off of his words. My problems with Powerhouse were 100% what adam was telling me and I was going off of his words. My problems with whipple were simply a machining error on the assembly line that caused the rotors to fail and whipple gave me a brand new blower within a week and were outstanding - never had a single issue with them. My new motor is broken because adam claims greg used the wrong head gasket...

See a pattern here? If you ask adam to this day why built motor number 1 failed - he will tell you JDM royally messed up the guides in their heads anad it caused a valve to tap a piston. If you call JDM to this day and ask them what happened to my first built motor- they will tell you that adam ran a dangerously lean tune and detonation is what caused the valve to fail.

Please explain how this is me bashing either of them???? I'd love to hear it. If anything, I'm guilty of believing and taking the word of my vendors when obviously some of them are lying somewhere. While they argue who fucked up my shit, I'm the one left holding the bag and out a ton of money.

Now Mike from Livernois is of course saying that greg also used the worng head gasket to cause the damage because adam posted some pics of something that 'could' have happened. I'm pretty sure other scenarios could cause piston failures and a smaller head gasket is not the ONLY scenario in the world for a piston failing. However, that theory works to point the finger somewhere else.

Again, I don't really blame any of them cause I put myself in this situation by using them. That's my whole point. All of the shops out here rely on other shops to do things and it puts you in a potentially bad situation - exactly like I found myself in over and over. This is why I have moved to a shop that is doing EVERYTHING themselves. This is why they are happy to take my money and are standing behind the work 100% - because they are the only ones touching it. Should have done this a long time ago but I believed the "we can build it...no problem" BS I got from all of the so cal shops. They obviously can't as proven by the track record out here. Not one single shop on the west coast has even come close to the results of some of the west coast shops like JPC/RGR, Modular depot, Boss 330, etc.

The West Coast also has the most engine failures of any other shops in the country and that's a fact. Hell, I don't even know of one west coast customer who has even had a stock motor live through any decent power levels. Certainly nothing compared to the JDM's and others back east. Tells you something about what side of the mississippi the 'talent' lies.

This is just my observation and opinion, and I'm just an average guy and entitled to my opinion whenever and however I want. Call it bashing if you will - I don't give a shit. If a shop doesn't want me to 'bash' them - then just supply me a motor that can last more than 500 miles... is that asking too much or being too demanding? I don't think so.

 

[ChevyKiller]

*Cut and paste from the other forum*

Well this thread has definitely gone up and down and all over the place. As you guys know by now I'm kind of long winded at best. Sorry. lol

After getting to see the pictures of the pistons that were posted in the other thread on S197 and seeing the ring at the edge of the piston from the gasket it at least confirmed the information I had received from a very reliable source (Adam@ST) that the wrong head gasket had been used.

From a technical standpoint since the question was asked, normally in an engine the spec used for most high performance engines when it comes to piston to head clearance is going to be around .040. Now you can go a little tighter than that and get down close to .030 and the piston might just start to touch the head. But there are a lot of factors here that make up what you can get away with. Rod type, rod material, RPM range, piston weight, piston to wall clearance, etc. etc. etc.

If though the gasket hangs into the path of the piston then you have just most likely created .000 clearance for piston to head and that just will not work. The gasket will get hit by the piston and destruction will ensue. Again there are variables such as piston to deck clearance here as well. Bottom line is the gasket cannot be in the bore as it will cause damage.

In talking to Comp on the camshafts their warranty information relates to a machining issue in regards to finish and machining issues. But the camshafts measured very low in total runout or the cam being bent. This is what there inspection found. They did not find the cams were bent but had issued warranty because of the machining issue.

I have received further information from another member on this board that there was dialogue that took place between Mark and this other member that relates specifically to his oil pump failure and lack of oil pressure that caused the oil pressure to drop and the heads to get eaten up. This was in the form of a PM. This member kindly messaged me to let me know this had happened as he felt there was more information that was not on the table that he felt like should be out there. He told me he would send me that PM if I would like. I greatly appreciate him coming forward with that info.

In all of this I have come from a point of minimal to limited knowledge on what happened to what I feel is having a decent amount of information as it pertains to this enough to form an opinion and enough to know that Livernois was not at fault in any way. This was my goal from the beginning, to assess what information I could find and determine if indeed we had made some mistake and if we did to handle it. It took a while to gather enough information to get things straightened out but in the end I feel confident in what we have here.

The combination of having multiple hands work with, disassemble and check the heads and give them the passing grade plus then go to the engine builder who noted nothing wrong with them during his piston to valve checking makes me confident that the heads and cams were in good condition at that point of engine assembly. Getting the information from Comp that the cams were not bent but warrantied for a reason not related to that was another indicator. Finally getting the story on the engine and hearing about the issues with the assembly followed by the broken oil pump and then seeing the pictures of the damaged pistons from the head gasket were good confirmation for me that there were other issues here unrelated to anything Livernois had done.

The problem faced as a vendor in this situation is that this same thread titled "You may change your opinion of Livernois" on no less than 3 message boards creates a situation where regardless of the intent it puts Livernois in a very negative light. Just read the first pages of comments on any of the 3 forums and you can see just that. We have no issue in posting whatever information pertains to any dealings customers have with us. We try to always do a good job and handle everybody professionally. We hope that this reflects positively on us.

In any situation where it relates to warranty Livernois always 100% stands behinds it products if the case is clear cut that Livernois has made mistake. We will always first inspect and gather information before making any snap judgements on anything. We won't claim to be perfect and never will. While we strive to get there we are in fact still human. If we make a mistake we own up to it and handle it. In the event that something happens involving one of our products and we are not at fault we will still do whatever we can to try and help the customer out. I will always do whatever I can in my power to help a customer out because if I was the customer that is all I would ask for.

If anybody has any questions feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.

Thanks
Mike

Mike,

John asked me why I was backpeddling to you and trying to 'bash' adam and this was my response. I want you to see it because the fact remains that you have yet to answer to the fact that your heads brand new right out of the box were binding and wouldn't turn before ANYONE broke them down, opened them, or touched them in any way. This was even before the flow test. You have yet to answer to this despite saying you stand behind your work? Why was the driver side binding brand new right out of the box before anyone touched them?

I don't know if adam built me a bad motor - that's the point, John. Adam says greg screwed it up - Greg says adam screwed it up - just like adam says JDM screwed up on the first one and JDM says adam screwed up on the first one.... where does that leave me? And what I say effecting people's business? What about people's business effecting my wallet? I'm tired of the 'victim' game when I am the one losing money - none of them.

I am no engine builder so i can't answer your question - all I know is I am sure it is possible that if something is wrong with a build - it is very possible it could last for 500 miles and 30 passes before a total failure occurred. Otherwise every single blown motor would happen as soon as the car was started the first time and that is not the case obviously.

I am not back-peddling to Livernois at all. I am only acknowledging their professionalism through this crap. The difference in the way adam is handling it is big time and shows a lot about professionalism. No matter what Mike says, nothing changes the fact that the motor would not turn over when I tried their brand new heads right out of the box 100% assembled by them and the driver cam was binding before anyone took a part their heads at all. Something was definitely 'not right' with their heads brand new right out of the box and that is a fact that they seem to be avoiding. Did that 'issue' lead to all the failures - maybe - maybe not - I don't know - other things and theories may have come into play but one thing for sure is their heads brand new right out of the box were binding and something was wrong right out of the box before anyone broke those heads down.

That's a fact so regardless of anything else, they have yet to address the fact that even if they are not at fault for all of the other damage, their was something wrong with their heads right out of the box and they are not standing behind their heads at all.

 

[ChevyKiller]

My mission is not to 'bash' vendors - even it appears that way to some of you. I was just hoping to share my issues so maybe someone wouldn't lose the massive amounts of money I have.

It's obvious from the responses that most of you don't give a shit and are only concerned with ganging up to rally behind the shop you give money to. This isn't friggin' college and these are not fraternities we are talking but whatever. I have wasted far too much of my time with all of this.

Through it all I know the lesson to be learned and if you can't get it - oh well. Keep spending your money, and keep posting when shit doesn't do what you payed for it to do. Now I know why the 'real' info isn't being shared - the guys in the know don't have the time or desire to deal with this kind of nonsense.

I'm out - it's been fun - but I am out and wish you all the best with your money.

 

[jsawyer]

Mark,
If this was your first issue with a builder/company we all would give you benefit of the doubt. Right now you are "The Little Boy Who Cried Wolf".

All I know is that I chose a shop on reputation and I have never been disapointed. If I need anything for my car Adam is there and helps me out. He cares as much about my car as I do. I feel bad that you listened to other shops with obvious agendas (getting your green) and lost your way. If you treat people how you want to be treated they will run through a wall for you. Throwing your money around is one thing, but treating people well means a lot more.

I am sure that most folks want you to succeed me included. I was pretty pumped when I saw both articals on your car. I want you to go out and throw down a huge number and burn up all the tracks. The fact is that I am pretty fortunate and could take my car to the next level, but I am not willing to go through the headaches and problems. At some point you have to say it is done. Maybe you should sell that thing and add a few years to your life span
Good Luck Mark.

 

[ChevyKiller]

Thanks John, but just remember I have only used 2 shops in the entire life span of my car.

 

[vinnybarber]

Mark you did come on here bashing. You do need to let people know what's happening. But calm down and go about it another way. people will be more willing to help you.I do want you to get it running.because the more people at our level the more funny it would be.

 

[terry5357]

Aside from all the "he said, she said". My question is this. Even though there are no "warranties" where does this start, is it after the motor is up and running correctly, because if tht is not the case then it seems like anyone could put a motor together and it fucks up right out the gate and the builder can say "oh well sorry dude".

as for Livernois, this is a large company that could absorb the costs of new head castings and cams. I have worked in aircraft machines shops where parts get scrapped all the time, and there is never a "wait and lets see what someone says" kind of deal, you just start over whether its a $40 piece of 6061 or 7075 or a $5000 casting or forging. It just seems to me that since Mark never got a "completed part" he was still waiting on delivery and in no way, shape or form should even be hearing anything except "hey man somewhere, somehow your heads got fucked up and we are having to build you another set. And so far as I have seen Livernois has not said "sorry dude you are just out of luck. Hopefully they WILL do what most manufacturing companies do and make things right.

 

[07torchgt]

Well I can tell you this they have helped me on more than one occasion , and I can also say I have first hand knowledge of a defective product they have sold ( set of heads ) BUT I can also say that as soon as they received word on what was going on they were replaced asap by livernois . 07torchgt had a problem too now even though they sent the wrong head in the end they did figure out there left from right and sent the correct one lol j/k rick&mike

exactly... and if you read my threads no where in there did I bash Livernois or try to change anyones opinion... my biggest complaint is shipping and no one can do anything about that... hell I am stationed half way around the world and got nothing but first class customer service from those guys... not just mike but andy and rick as well...

and also think about this... I seriously doubt all of Livernois' customers are on this board or whatever other boards this was posted on...

hell, i bet half of their customers aren't on any board... just think about how sets of heads are out there on peoples cars that are perfectly fine and how many good customer reviews they could get... you know the old saying; for every bad review there are ten good ones that go unspoken...

 

[lostsoul]

I think people seem to forget there is a loss of $6-18K here almost instantly. I agree there should be no bashing (unless its deserved) until all the info is out.

No one should have to lose money like that with no answer as to why(not even mark). Something or someone fucked up and it would help us all to know why.

Trust no one!