Zero compression in number 7

[MachRan]

Me...Sort of..Not JDM.

This car was together for 4 years with no issues. The only variables were the coil packs and gas. Looks like it was the gas.

 

[Pentalab]

Sure looks like tuning failure to me. Ford has those knock sensors for a reason and any tuner that disables them should have to replace every single engine that ends up like this. But they usually won't.

JDM ( jim jr) and I got into this a year ago. JDM turns OFF the knock sensors in their tunes...on 05-10 cars. VMP tells me that roush started turning OFF the knock sensors around 2009. ( roush also did other stupid shit , like 29 degs of timing on it's M90 blower cars and M90 kits).

Then everybody and their dog turned off the KS on 11+ cars.
VMP turns ON the KS on 05-14 cars.

U gotta be nuts to turn off the KS on any 05-14 car.

 

[weather man]

My tuner has a guy stationed listening for knock when being run on the dyno. When I tried more than 15 degrees timing on pump, the guy and the sensor detected knock. Why would you disable something that works?

 

[bullitt boy]

Knock knock , Whos there? detonation

 

[s8v4o]

.....just because the wideband shows lean, that doesn't mean it is not getting flooded with fuel, the wideband only picks up exhaust gas's after that have been ignited, so if a coil is not working, and a cylinder is getting flooded with fuel the wideband will show lean becuase that raw fuel never makes it to the wideband but the extra air from the cylinder does...which then mixes with the rest of the exhaust gas's to show lean.

This is mostly correct as I'm sure you have the gist. The wideband reads the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream, that's it. It doesn't matter if it's been ignited or not. Nor does it matter if there's raw fuel in the exhaust. If a coil is not firing you are sending a lot of unburnt oxygen past the O2 sensor and that can cause a false lean condition as you've already mentioned. Raw fuel certainly passes the sensor in the exhaust system but that doesn't matter as the sensor only reads oxygen content.

 

[AutoXRacer]

JDM ( jim jr) and I got into this a year ago. JDM turns OFF the knock sensors in their tunes...on 05-10 cars. VMP tells me that roush started turning OFF the knock sensors around 2009. ( roush also did other stupid shit , like 29 degs of timing on it's M90 blower cars and M90 kits).

Then everybody and their dog turned off the KS on 11+ cars.
VMP turns ON the KS on 05-14 cars.

U gotta be nuts to turn off the KS on any 05-14 car.

Jimbo, you have to turn off the knock sensors on modified engines!!
Justin turned my knock sensors off when I ran the M90 setup.

You have to turn them off because of the blower, the blower creates too much noise (vibration) that triggers the sensors needlessly.

It gets worse with a built motor.

Knock sensors only work in NA motors.

Not to freak you out, but your knock sensors are probably off too.

I do have a concern with the OPs posts. You cannot interchange the HTO and the NGK plugs as one is 16mm and the other is 12mm. Now the coils I could see how you can interchange them incorrectly.

Who ever installed the 05-early 08 (HTO plugs) coils onto a late 08-10 heads should be responsible for crappy assembly work. Those coils do not work on late 3V heads. I am not sure about the coils themselves if they are interchangeable.

What I do know is that the early 3V heads (HTO plugs) use a different coil all together than the late 3V heads (NGK plugs). When I did my build and converted to late model 3V heads, I tried using the early 3V coils with brown boots and it did not work. I ended up buying a new set of late 3V head coils from FRPP.

I am thinking that swapping the coils affected the timing and thus ended up killing the motor.

The early 3V coils are much shorter, installing these in a newer 3V head would create a gap or reach issue between the spring/boot/coil and the spark plug. If you were tuned with a gap between the coil spring and spark plug and then changed the setup with longer (correct reach) boots and springs, then the timing will definitely change in terms of spark timing...timing of the spark that leaves the coil and reaches the spark plug.

Do you guys agree...? Would this be possible?

The older 3V coils have much shorter boots and springs compared to the new 3V coils. The older 3V coils also had a much larger spring diameter.

 

[eighty6gt]

Electricity moves to quickly for a 1" change in distance (for example,) to make a difference in a reciprocating engine.

Lito indicates my knock sensors are on, for sure during part throttle operation.

 

[one eyed willy]

Jimbo, you have to turn off the knock sensors on modified engines!!
Justin turned my knock sensors off when I ran the M90 setup.

You have to turn them off because of the blower, the blower creates too much noise (vibration) that triggers the sensors needlessly.

It gets worse with a built motor.

Knock sensors only work in NA motors.

Not to freak you out, but your knock sensors are probably off too.

I do have a concern with the OPs posts. You cannot interchange the HTO and the NGK plugs as one is 16mm and the other is 12mm. Now the coils I could see how you can interchange them incorrectly.

Who ever installed the 05-early 08 (HTO plugs) coils onto a late 08-10 heads should be responsible for crappy assembly work. Those coils do not work on late 3V heads. I am not sure about the coils themselves if they are interchangeable.

What I do know is that the early 3V heads (HTO plugs) use a different coil all together than the late 3V heads (NGK plugs). When I did my build and converted to late model 3V heads, I tried using the early 3V coils with brown boots and it did not work. I ended up buying a new set of late 3V head coils from FRPP.

I am thinking that swapping the coils affected the timing and thus ended up killing the motor.

The early 3V coils are much shorter, installing these in a newer 3V head would create a gap or reach issue between the spring/boot/coil and the spark plug. If you were tuned with a gap between the coil spring and spark plug and then changed the setup with longer (correct reach) boots and springs, then the timing will definitely change in terms of spark timing...timing of the spark that leaves the coil and reaches the spark plug.

Do you guys agree...? Would this be possible?

The older 3V coils have much shorter boots and springs compared to the new 3V coils. The older 3V coils also had a much larger spring diameter.

huh? my knock sensors work perfectly fine on my built motor.

He never had HTO plugs installed, it what was just listed on his invoice when they did the work.

coils are the same, boots are the only thing that changed, Brown boots are the newer 3v with the newer spark plug design

he never had a issue with running the shorter coil boots for years so i dont think there is any sort of issue there

 

[s8v4o]

You have to turn them off because of the blower, the blower creates too much noise (vibration) that triggers the sensors needlessly.

It gets worse with a built motor.

Knock sensors only work in NA motors.

How many blown guys do you think are not running knock sensors?

 

[AutoXRacer]

How many blown guys do you think are not running knock sensors?

Most...if you are supercharged. Not sure about the turbo guys though.

huh? my knock sensors work perfectly fine on my built motor.

He never had HTO plugs installed, it what was just listed on his invoice when they did the work.

coils are the same, boots are the only thing that changed, Brown boots are the newer 3v with the newer spark plug design

I know for a fact, having both coils on the bench that they are not the same coils externally. The older coils have a slightly larger diameter where the spring is inserted. Plus, the spring on the older plugs is shorter than the newer plugs. Obviously, the boot is also different in length.

Internally (electronically) the coils most likely are the same.

Electricity moves to quickly for a 1" change in distance (for example,) to make a difference in a reciprocating engine.

Lito indicates my knock sensors are on, for sure during part throttle operation.

How can your knock sensors be on for part throttle and then off for WOT?
Aren't they on or off...?

 

[psfracer]

I know for a fact, having both coils on the bench that they are not the same coils externally. The older coils have a slightly larger diameter where the spring is inserted. Plus, the spring on the older plugs is shorter than the newer plugs. Obviously, the boot is also different in length.

Internally (electronically) the coils most likely are the same.

So if the wrong coils were on, how much gap would there be from the boot to the top of the spark plug?

If large enough, I would think the engine would have ran like crap and missing, but it wouldn't change the timing.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I would have thought that having an...lets say an air gap, would slightly change the overall timing as you are having to compensate for the air gap; which is essentially a insulator.

I guess I am over analyzing this.

 

[eighty6gt]

How can your knock sensors be on for part throttle and then off for WOT?
Aren't they on or off...?

No idea - I just can't be sure because Lito and I have only discussed minor audible knock at part throttle, and he talked about the ECU having a lot of range to pull timing when it hears knock during these conditions, and it was running out if I could hear anything.

 

[AutoXRacer]

No idea - I just can't be sure because Lito and I have only discussed minor audible knock at part throttle, and he talked about the ECU having a lot of range to pull timing when it hears knock during these conditions, and it was running out if I could hear anything.

I think your knock sensors are off...
But I would ask Lito to be sure.

Typically tuners turn them off with blowers mounted on the intake manifold.
Also some built motor produce a lot of noise.

 

[eighty6gt]

...also earlier when talking about being on/off - I was just saying that maybe the ECU would ignore the knock sensor information at WOT and use it at part throttle, but based on my recent memory from tuning with Justin (other thread,) I believe they are always on.

Lito will probably come across these discussions when he's done catching up from the weekend.

 

[AutoXRacer]

There are two features that pull timing...

Knock sensors and AIT.

So if your air intake temperatures reach 136, the PCM starts pulling timing. Some tuners set this limit higher than others.

The only other thing to pull timing is the knock sensors; which are typically just on or off. Knock sensors come in handy during WOT when damage is likely to occur.

 

[MachRan]

The Saleen crate motor was delivered directly to JDM. They put the motor in the car using the coils off of the old motor which had the 07 coils. That was 4 years ago. My friend that had the car built hardly ever drove the car. When I bought the car from my friend I ordered plugs from JDM and they were wrong when they were delivered. I talked to Jr and he said I needed the new style coils. I ordered them and within a few weeks it melted down.
The new and correct coils are 3/8" longer than the old style. I also believe the tip on the new style is smaller.

 

[AutoXRacer]

The Saleen crate motor was delivered directly to JDM. They put the motor in the car using the coils off of the old motor which had the 07 coils. That was 4 years ago. My friend that had the car built hardly ever drove the car. When I bought the car from my friend I ordered plugs from JDM and they were wrong when they were delivered. I talked to Jr and he said I needed the new style coils. I ordered them and within a few weeks it melted down.
The new and correct coils are 3/8" longer than the old style. I also believe the tip on the new style is smaller.

Thats correct, the tip and spring are smaller (diameter) than the old coils.

 

[psfracer]

I ordered them and within a few weeks it melted down.
The new and correct coils are 3/8" longer than the old style. I also believe the tip on the new style is smaller.

Ok, so if the new coils are 3/8" LONGER, then there was no "gap" to cause misfires/missing, correct? (vs the opposite where if there was 3/8 of an inch from the coil to the top of the spark plug, that definitely would cause problems as far as missing/misfires, etc.).

Then you have the fact it took a few weeks after the new coil install for this to happen. If it really was the coils, you would think that would have happened the first time you did a pull after you installed the coils, not a few weeks after.

So my vote is still bad gas/wrong gas, with detonation/excessive heat causing the damage to the pistons.

 

[MachRan]

Honestly at this point I think it was the gas too. But this didnt happen all at once it was over a couple is weeks. My thought originally was that the proper spark needed more fuel and I didn't know it. I had just swapped the exhaust for emissions within the last month too and I thought I just had an exhaust leak at first. It wasn't until I saw some blue smoke that I realized I had other problems.
In theory I could have hurt it a little each time I got on it trying to figure out the exhaust leak.