Brake pad thread for road course (yes another one)

[SlowJim]

DTC-70's are the highest temp range in the Hawk lineup. Operating range temp is spec'd at 400-1600F, with 800-1200F being optimal. I've had equivalent braking performance, better rotor life and no vibration using HP+ (barely a track pad),
HT-10's/HT-14's (midrange). Of course, I'll admit, my NA car tops out at 140mph on the VIR straights. I still think dropping down in compound is the solution.

I can vouch for this. Ran a HPDE3 weekend at Mid Ohio back in June with HP+ all around and no ducts. They faded a little but held up just fine, and I think with some ventilation and titanium shims I would have had zero fade (this was on street tires, and I was backing off to around 110mph on the straights).

 

[csamsh]

I dont run that car to much on the track anymore, but i did find out that xp20/12 was a good combo to run. I could go a whole weekend on that set up without issue.

That ended up as my favorite setup as well.

Granted, we don't approach VIR speeds in Texas.

 

[Mike Rousch]

That ended up as my favorite setup as well.

Granted, we don't approach VIR speeds in Texas.

Agreed, I have tried all types of brands/compounds looking for something better and i keep going back to that combo.

 

[2Fass240us]

Agreed, I have tried all types of brands/compounds looking for something better and i keep going back to that combo.

Thanks for the update.

Better in terms of what? Wear?

I run 60/60 but might give another pad a shot depending on cost. I like the 60s but I may get better life out of another pad and they have r4ped the finish on my CF5s. Granted, I drove around with the 60s in the rear for nearly a freaking year. :/

 

[2Fass240us]

Oh wow, the XP20 is only ~$240 in the 7420 pad shape for the Wilwood Superlite. Looks like the rear OE-style pad is ~$180 for the XP12. I need to check but I think the DTC-60s are pretty comparable.

 

[Mike Rousch]

Thanks for the update.

Better in terms of what? Wear?

I run 60/60 but might give another pad a shot depending on cost. I like the 60s but I may get better life out of another pad and they have r4ped the finish on my CF5s. Granted, I drove around with the 60s in the rear for nearly a freaking year. :/

With that combo i can get a whole weekend (3 day) out of the front brake pads and rotors (centrics) and around 2 weekends out of the rear pad and about the same on the rear rotor. The 70s would kill the front rotors within 6-7 sesions to the point the car would shake so bad under braking you couldnt drive it. With the xp20's i get almost no shake at all unless i try to use the rotors more then one weekend.

 

[CobraRed]

This is a good thread, glad it was updated.

 

[Boone]

I swap pads for street and HPDE duty. How much does the transfer layer compatibility effect rotor buildup? I was told by guys at Rehagen Racing that PFC makes the stock pads for the 14" four-piston Brembos, so the PFC-01 race pads would save me a lot of trouble with buildup on the rotors. I can't complain with the results I've seen at VIR. Two weekends and no vibration and very reasonable pad wear. I see 0.9 g's under braking with 260 TW street tires, and I have Boss 302 brake ducts behind the lower grill on my '05 GT. I'm around 130 - 135 mph at the end of both straits.

Is there a degree of compatibility built in to most manufacturer's lines of brake pads?

 

[csamsh]

I know there is for carbotech, not sure about others.

 

[Mark Aubele]

My stock brake pads say Ferodo on them. '14 Track pack. Not sure what they are but I replaced them with DS2500s of the same brand.

 

[csamsh]

My stock pads said Brembo...looks like there are lots of suppliers

 

[Mark Aubele]

My stock pads said Brembo...looks like there are lots of suppliers

Pretty sure the track pack cars had Boss pads.

 

[mitch]

and... if anyone is looking for a good set of Hawk HP+ to get on track...

Brand new in the box, for stock calipers.... Make a reasonable offer:

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123805

 

[2008 V6]

This is not an advertisement for Wilwood. I was getting free stuff so I ran their decal at a Time attack event a few of years ago. The pic was taken to send to their rep showing a new developed pad compounds performance. It destroyed the rotor but worked well. The compound has since been changed.

This pic is to show ducting. This is a 3” galvanized tube with a small dimple for tire clearance. If you look at the inner fender well, you can see tire rub marks so no more inside offset is possible. I had .125” clearance between the rim and strut. Struts are Koni. Most people use flexible tubing for the entire length of the duct but it limits airflow quite a lot. I would recommend solid tube (Straight as possible) for the majority of the length to increase airflow to the brakes. I used steel tube because I had it lying around. Yes there is a lot of room for 3” solid tube. The dimple is oversized. If my wife wished to continue racing we would have upgraded to 3.5” aluminum tube and limited the movement of the steering rack.

Double click on the pic for better view

 

[mitch]

2008 V6, you might want to consider "Steering Rack Limiters"
About 4 bucks, and no more rubbing, and dont even know they are there.

Also, why do you say that flexible tubing limits airflow?? is it the ridges around the tubing??

 

[2008 V6]

2008 V6, you might want to consider "Steering Rack Limiters"
About 4 bucks, and no more rubbing, and dont even know they are there.

Also, why do you say that flexible tubing limits airflow?? is it the ridges around the tubing??

Thanks - that is what we intended to use or something similar down the road.

I left full / stock lock because my driver / wife definitely used all of it. Very good conversation piece after several un-wanted off-road stints while I watched from the sidelines. LOL

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Also, why do you say that flexible tubing limits airflow?? is it the ridges around the tubing??

Its true, smooth bore (metal, plastic, carbon fiber) brake duct tubing is always going to outflow any normal high temp corrugated brake duct hose. But for many cars this isn't practical...

For most S197 folks that try to run the hoses outside of the frame rails, you are going to get some rub at full lock with anything, and its safer to use the flexible hoses rather than metal tubing there. What happens if the aluminum or steel 3" tube rips off at full lock? Could come shooting out, possibly cut a tire, and take all of the brake hoses with it. With 18x10 or 18x11" front wheels you have to just suck it up and let the hoses rub a bit - they tend to just wear through, slowly. The hoses become a wear item if you ever go anywhere near to full lock with wider wheels. We used to replace the hoses every 6 months or so (but we raced 2-3 times per month).

Sometimes you can route the hoses away from the wheel, even at full lock. It depends on the car and a lot of other variables. With the splitter on our S197 above, there wre even more turns to make, but we could route the hoses UNDER the frame rails and keep them away from the tires at full lock. Of course the more turns in the brake ducting hose you add, the more flow restriction there is. That picture above was with 4" hoses, which are even more difficult to package than 3" hoses.

Everything in racing is a compromise... because "Everything depends on everything else". You could possibly keep hard tubing as brake ducting if you have itty bitty narrow wheels and steering limiters, but as wheels get larger (which they need to if you want lap times to drop) the space you have to work with gets less and less. Pick your compromises.

 

[2008 V6]

Some what agreed But –
Inside offset and the diameter of the tire determine how much clearance you have.
Inside offset in the front is determined buy strut clearance – The outside diameter of the strut. I ran Koni Yellows, which I don’t recommend for anything track dedicated.

My tire –
Yokohama AD08R is 26.3” advertised outside diameter – 265-40-18. Nice street tire and easy to predict breakaway because of the compliant sidewall. Good training tire. Larger in diameter than a Hoosier R7 – 335-30-18 advertised OD of 25.6”

Rim -
Enkie – PF01 – 9.5” with a 45mm inside offset. The tire and rim size were determined for training purposes. The narrower tack width was for cone running. The wife said she wanted to try autocross but that never transpired even though the option was there.

I had .125” clearance between the rim and the strut so I don’t think more front inside offset is possible with Koni Struts. I had no evidence of tire rubbing on the struts. The struts and suspension were painted black to keep a stock appearance. Maybe my struts are much larger in diameter than what you are running.

I dimpled the 3” tube slightly where the tires would have rubbed. My tires rub the frame at full lock evident by prior pics. The discolorations on the 3” tube was from a torch and hammer to create the dimple (Left over exhaust pipe from past projects). This was a trial setup which was going to be changed to aluminum but the wife lost interest in competing. If the tire did deflect enough to contact the tubing, the driver would have had a hell of a lot to be thinking about other than a 3” tube possibly being ripped off.

No disrespect intended Terri. You have done more with the S197 platform than anyone else I have read about but some people just have a difference of opinion – Whether that be correct or incorrect. Our car has seen some pretty interesting off track adventures (No bent main structure (Very solid foundation – Thank you Ford) and no brake duct / tire rubbing.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Some what agreed But –

(.... lots of numbers....)

No disrespect intended Terri. You have done more with the S197 platform than anyone else I have read about but some people just have a difference of opinion – Whether that be correct or incorrect. Our car has seen some pretty interesting off track adventures (No bent main structure (Very solid foundation – Thank you Ford) and no brake duct / tire rubbing.

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove with that? But I agree, with with skinny 9" or 9.5" wide wheels and little 265s you probably CAN run a (heavily) dimpled solid brake duct tube.

Of course your car would be faster on wider wheels and tires... which was was the point of my last post. Yes, you probably can fit some hard brake tubes in there, but at the sacrifice of wider wheels/tires, and thus a sacrifice in lap times. Yes, even with a V6 you'd be faster on wider wheels and tires. <- And that's not an opinion.

 

[2008 V6]

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove with that? But I agree, with with skinny 9" or 9.5" wide wheels and little 265s you probably CAN run a (heavily) dimpled solid brake duct tube.

Of course your car would be faster on wider wheels and tires... which was was the point of my last post. Yes, you probably can fit some hard brake tubes in there, but at the sacrifice of wider wheels/tires, and thus a sacrifice in lap times. Yes, even with a V6 you'd be faster on wider wheels and tires. <- And that's not an opinion.

I'm not trying to prove anything or be rude. Don't take it that way. -

Our V6 Was purchased for $5,000.00 as a training tool to keep speeds down and for specific NASA TT classing – C or B. If totaled, low initial investment for a learning tool. A very easy platform to upgrade also parts are cheap and in most junk yards, fenders, doors, ECT.

The tires were purchased for dual purpose – Street, Track, Training. In a heavy car with narrower tires, lower over speed is kept with reason for training - The driver could reach the limits at a much lower speed, have fun and not reach the pucker factor. Repetition - Training their personal non-thinking and thinking motor skills in a safer / slower environment. Meaning self-automatic correction with out having to think about it for car control. With some seat time you automatically make small corrections when the car is skiterish not even thinking about it – It just happens – Much, much easier to learn when at lower speeds with an easy to read tire. I would think you might be familiar with this.
Most people don’t want to put an inexperienced driver in a heavy, 400+ HP car with wide slicks and ask them to learn the basics.
Here is a pic of the driver. Would you want you see her get hurt.? Double click on pic to expand.

Now the main subject – It doesn’t matter if you have a 225, 265 or 335 tire if the outside diameter and overall inside offset is the same. (Measurements from the inside bolting surface to the edge of the rim / tire sticking in the fender well) What this means is that only so much of the tire can be set to the inside - All the extra rubber and rim is set outward. Since only so much tire can stick in, it doesn’t matter if you have a 225, 265 or 335 tire. Both sit as far in as possible. All extra tire width is set outwardly. With the strut OD that I currently have, no more inside offset is possible. Maybe your struts are thinner. If they are, it can’t be by much. Maybe I’m wrong. If you want to get a tape measure and measure your rim / tire combo for inside offset we can compare notes. Maybe your S197 platform is different - Mine works. If you blow the pic up in my original post you can see the size of the dimple and it is oversized. Even if the dimple were bigger, the tube would out flow a ribbed, flexible tube.