A beginners guide to preparing for HPDE (Road Course)

[Gray Ghost GT]

bump

 

[Rodeoflyer]

DONT BE THIS GUY:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7iUKaPlBl8

 

[pieperz06]

DONT BE THIS GUY:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7iUKaPlBl8

did you find that or make it

that is freekin epicly funny

 

[pcdrj]

I saw that on NASA forums. The real comedy is an actual post by a guy in a new GS Vette who hasn't been to the track yet but wants to do some engine mods before going.

 

[pieperz06]

I saw that on NASA forums. The real comedy is an actual post by a guy in a new GS Vette who hasn't been to the track yet but wants to do some engine mods before going.

i get that all the time from ever one i know that is my age. i dont have any of my friends that will come to the autox much less a track day because they say they will be "slow" because there car doesn't have 10000000 hp.

i honestly think now after the time i have been doing this the biggest problem with people's driving is thinking that people there give a damn if they are "slow". many first time drivers that i have helped get all flustered if they make a mistake and dwell on it and get embarrassed that they may not be the best at some thing.

it feels more like a high school when i ride with ppl at an autox its all about what you look like and not how you preform.

Ps. what did you do to your motor pcdrj

PS what

 

[pcdrj]

Ps. what did you do to your motor pcdrj

PS what

Found a bent crank. New one has arrived and was balanced this week. I'm hoping to get it back by the end of the month for a 3 day PCA event at NJMP. In the meantime I'm tracking a Spec Miata (110 rwhp) I picked up. Pocono on Monday.

 

[Bizzyb0nes]

great write up/info...i gotta get back on the track...this is killing me lol

 

[Ignatowski]

I just wanted to bump this thread.

I'm attending my first HPDE event at VIR next month and this thread answered a lot of questions for me.

 

[pcdrj]

I just wanted to bump this thread.

I'm attending my first HPDE event at VIR next month and this thread answered a lot of questions for me.

11/15 - 11/16 with Trackdaze? I'll be there.

 

[EdwardGT]

OMFG, I literally cried watching that video. I've actually run into several folks just like that douche. I'm not going to lie though, I like to drive flat out.

 

[Ignatowski]

11/15 - 11/16 with Trackdaze? I'll be there.

Yes, but I'll only be there on the 15th. I'll be in a black Mustang GT.

 

[Mr. Q]

sticky please!

i heart this thread

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

...........

 

[captdistraction]

Awesome list, Ghost, if I may, I'd like to add a few things to it... You cover a LOT of territory that really doesn't apply to a true "beginner," and if somebody is contemplating giving open tracking a shot, we don't want them freaking out about how much they "have" to do to their car just to survive their first weekend...

I use "In slow, out fast: In fast, out backwards"...

Ideally, as soon as you make your wheel input at turn in, you should be looking PAST your apex to the track-out point. The car will follow your eyes.

Excellent, but I would stress that heel-toe is NOT critical for HPDE-1 beginners. They should be focusing on the essential basic skills, running the line consistently, touch-press braking, smooth control inputs, and situational awareness. Half of HPDE-1 is spent just getting acclimatized to the track environs and sensory inputs. Heel-toe is important, but DO NOT try to learn it at the track! I would rather have a student brake too early, execute the shift and then turn in, rather than get the car squirrelly with trailing-clutch oversteer. Ideally, if they can't heel toe, shifting right after track out would be preferred, especially if they're in a high-horsepower machine like a Mustang.

These were some great additions.

Its very important to always look where you want to go. Looking ahead through a corner and to the next is part of it, but when things go wrong, its also very important to look where you want the vehicle to go. A lot is instinct, but I agree with everyone on stressing that watching the car in front of you is not what you want to be doing and your focus should always be the next corner and your eyes leading your hands and inputs to the next mark.

Then for absolute beginners, one of the biggest things I find missed is awareness of the track outside trying to drive the line. Its a lot to focus on, but there are two things I'd want a student to keep in mind after their first session and be able to accurately recount on their second: How many corner stations were there on the track? Also, to pick reference points that are static and not subject to change (IE a person standing somewhere, or a shadow). Some points will change as you pick up speed, but you don't want your reference to move without you realizing that its too late. There's a lot going on during track sessions and it can be intimidating/daunting for someone to handle at first, but getting some good habits in early makes a huge difference down the road.

 

[frank s]

When I was Chief Operating Steward at SCCA driver schools I emphasized in my driver orientation speech that they were not there to learn how to go fast or faster, but to learn the hierarchy of important things to pay attention to. I asked them to point and wave at turn workers on their first, non-hot lap, and to raise a hand for the starter the first couple of times they went by. The concept "multi-tasking" hadn't been named yet, but the critical lessons had to do with sorting inputs and responses in a way useful to drivers on a race track with other drivers and cars.

Technique is one thing; organized perception is another. They live together and complement one another in a dependable racer.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Multi-tasking: A couple years ago, I had a weekend where I wound up soloing my student mid-day on Saturday, and spent the balance of the weekend doing check-off rides, mostly from HPDE-2 to HPDE-3, and the occasional HPDE-3 to HPDE-4. The chief instructor gave me three guys to check off from -3 to -4, all buddies, who were from out of town, and not regulars with our NASA region. No biggie, I hop in the first car, a nicely turned-out E36 M3, and gave my regular speil.... "I'll ride for a couple of laps, just to see where you are, and then I'll point to the left or the right. When you nod to me that you see my thumb, pretend you have an imaginary car on that side, and give me a complete lap leaving adequate room for him at all times." The driver responded in the affirmative, and off we went. He pulled off pit lane right about at race pace, and proceeded to give me a clinic on how to warm up race slicks on the out lap. Perfect slip angle, every corner, slightly tail-out at every exit, etc... After a lap (I now knew he could drive), I pointed to the right, he nodded, and he proceeded to turn in a VERY fast, controlled off-line lap, managing traffic perfectly (we got passed twice, and MADE a pass, despite running offline the whole damn lap!), and kept up a running critique of every car we came across, and even commenting on some of the corner-workers' antics... I had him pull in, and asked "Okay, who are you?!" I not only passed him for the HPDE-4, but also dragged him off to see the Time Trial director (who I do check-rides for) and told him to just get the forms started for a TT license. It turns out that this guy was a BMWCCA instructor, with about a decade seniority, and had an expired comp license. Okay, sweet!

Then I went out with his buddy, and after the out lap, I just had him pull in, same deal, BMWCCA instructor, 6 or 7 years experience, etc. The third guy I just interviewed. What really struck me, though, besides the base driving skills, was just how comfortable they all were on track. That sort of comfort only comes with experience, but it does require serious work in the formative period to make all the CORRECT techniques habitual. THAT is what lets you multitask, and multitasking on track is in itself a critical technique. It's one thing to be able to turn in a screamer of a lap, it's a whole different ballgame when you can do that and at the same time keep your brain working; analyzing corner worker's behaviors (is he bending over to grab a flag? Might be drama around the corner. Better have an escape plan in place!), studying the guy ahead of you to find a weakness to exploit (he tends to go a little wide/late on entry into T4, I bet if I show him an outside look, he'll move over to cover and that'll leave me a hole to get my nose into on the inside), or just being able to stay focused on working different techniques (defensive line corner entry, alternate lines, etc.).

 

[Roadracer350]

You guys forgot the biggest detail on going fast!! Dress like the STIG!!!

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Multi-tasking: A couple years ago, I had a weekend where I wound up soloing my student mid-day on Saturday, and spent the balance of the weekend doing check-off rides, mostly from HPDE-2 to HPDE-3, and the occasional HPDE-3 to HPDE-4. The chief instructor gave me three guys to check off from -3 to -4, all buddies, who were from out of town, and not regulars with our NASA region. No biggie, I hop in the first car, a nicely turned-out E36 M3, and gave my regular speil.... "I'll ride for a couple of laps, just to see where you are, and then I'll point to the left or the right. When you nod to me that you see my thumb, pretend you have an imaginary car on that side, and give me a complete lap leaving adequate room for him at all times." The driver responded in the affirmative, and off we went. He pulled off pit lane right about at race pace, and proceeded to give me a clinic on how to warm up race slicks on the out lap. Perfect slip angle, every corner, slightly tail-out at every exit, etc... After a lap (I now knew he could drive), I pointed to the right, he nodded, and he proceeded to turn in a VERY fast, controlled off-line lap, managing traffic perfectly (we got passed twice, and MADE a pass, despite running offline the whole damn lap!), and kept up a running critique of every car we came across, and even commenting on some of the corner-workers' antics... I had him pull in, and asked "Okay, who are you?!" I not only passed him for the HPDE-4, but also dragged him off to see the Time Trial director (who I do check-rides for) and told him to just get the forms started for a TT license. It turns out that this guy was a BMWCCA instructor, with about a decade seniority, and had an expired comp license. Okay, sweet!

Then I went out with his buddy, and after the out lap, I just had him pull in, same deal, BMWCCA instructor, 6 or 7 years experience, etc. The third guy I just interviewed. What really struck me, though, besides the base driving skills, was just how comfortable they all were on track. That sort of comfort only comes with experience, but it does require serious work in the formative period to make all the CORRECT techniques habitual. THAT is what lets you multitask, and multitasking on track is in itself a critical technique. It's one thing to be able to turn in a screamer of a lap, it's a whole different ballgame when you can do that and at the same time keep your brain working; analyzing corner worker's behaviors (is he bending over to grab a flag? Might be drama around the corner. Better have an escape plan in place!), studying the guy ahead of you to find a weakness to exploit (he tends to go a little wide/late on entry into T4, I bet if I show him an outside look, he'll move over to cover and that'll leave me a hole to get my nose into on the inside), or just being able to stay focused on working different techniques (defensive line corner entry, alternate lines, etc.).

Great story - I've use many of those techniques with students (learned from a NASA instructor clinic) but I'm going to use that "drive offline left for a lap" with some of the more advanced drivers in check rides in the future!

And yes, teaching Situational Awareness is one of the most difficult things to do, but also one of the most important. For HPDE1/2 students I don't spend a ton of time of "going fast" tricks, but just try to get people comfortable with the speeds involved, driving safe and within their limits, and keeping an eye on their surroundings (mirrors, corner workers, other drivers, gauges - or SA). It bums me out when students move out of HPDE1 and go Solo, when many still have a lot of driving technique issues to improve... I always remind any HPDE driver that they still can learn lots from an instructor/more experienced racer, even after they are signed off for Solo. This sport involves skills that you just can't teach yourself.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Great story - I've use many of those techniques with students (learned from a NASA instructor clinic) but I'm going to use that "drive offline left for a lap" with some of the more advanced drivers in check rides in the future!

The off-line thing is what my instructor did to me for my TT checkoff, and I think it works wonders. The real key to that is to analyze "appropriate pace" when applied to the full lap offline. Anybody can run any line on track at 10mph, but that's not what the exercise is about, honestly. It gives you a REALLY good look at a variety of skills after putting the driver in a generally unfamiliar situation. Offline for a corner? Sure, most HPDE-3 guys have had the chance to do that, but a whole lap? Instantly they have to develop new lines connecting the corners, and at the same time manage traffic, which WILL start catching them. If they just aren't comfortable enough out there on track, generally they'll blow a corner or two in the lap, usually past the halfway point in the exercise when they forget to "leave room" for the imaginary car. In my book, that's an automatic fail, as it generally points out a need for more experience in traffic, and particularly in passing situations. In the end, moving to HPDE-4 or TT will involve a decent amount of door-to-door passing in the corners, and the higher the group, the higher the closing rates between differing chassis types. Think Viper vs. Miata... For the whole deal to be safe, BOTH drivers have to have their chops together. That offline test is the best I've been able to find to assess that.

And yes, teaching Situational Awareness is one of the most difficult things to do, but also one of the most important. For HPDE1/2 students I don't spend a ton of time of "going fast" tricks, but just try to get people comfortable with the speeds involved, driving safe and within their limits, and keeping an eye on their surroundings (mirrors, corner workers, other drivers, gauges - or SA). It bums me out when students move out of HPDE1 and go Solo, when many still have a lot of driving technique issues to improve... I always remind any HPDE driver that they still can learn lots from an instructor/more experienced racer, even after they are signed off for Solo. This sport involves skills that you just can't teach yourself.

Agreed wholeheartedly, and 100% to boot! What I do with the HPDE-1 guys that either want to solo, or that I think are ready to be kicked out of the nest, is to have them simultaneously read back their lap while driving it, a full corner ahead, AND make some comment about each corner worker we pass by. That right there will ensure that they have their head out of the car, and the driving techniques that they display are coming from muscle memory. Granted, they will butcher some of the techniques simply from sensory overload, but as long as it's nothing dangerous, I'll chat with them about it in the download and cut them loose. Oh, and another key factor I use in assessment is driver judgement, particularly when it comes to traffic management. How well do they time passes? Do they clearly assist with passing? Are they completely aware of who is around them, who they are catching, and who is catching them? You know the drill... But you're right, it ALL starts with situational awareness.

Maybe your experiences are different, but I've found, particularly with repeat students, that there comes a time where they just need to practice what they've got for a while, and having an instructor in the car pushing new techniques or offering the "same old" critiques are not what they need. Usually, this is with a moderately advanced technique, like threshold braking. Once they know what they're shooting for, and have a feel for the car under those conditions, the only thing for it is practice, practice, practice. This example student would already have a reasonably consistent line, decent situational awareness, but has had the lightbulb turn on concerning braking technique and moving braking points around. They don't need me chattering in their ear while they're working on that. Usually, that would be a one-session solo, and I'm back in to codify after that. It's also not the norm, but it has happened with some regularity.

Eventually, they get to the point where they know what they need to do, have good SA, decent pace, and are self-analyzing and self-correcting. At that point, I'll solo them, but will give them a loooonnnnnggggg chat about how they may know THIS track, but next month's track is a whole different deal, and to keep signing up for HPDE-1 until they just can't handle it any more.

Generally speaking, though, I think that I have more fun in my students' cars than I do in my own race car! Instructing can be VERY rewarding, and there's quite a payoff for me the first time a student REALLY nails something we'd been working on, and you hear that little "Oh!" over the intercom when the concept snaps into place. Better than any out-of-class pass, and that's for certain. Now, in-class passes going through a corner three-wide, that's a whole 'nother deal...

We should probably see about starting an instructor forum!!

 

[jayel579]

It turns out that this guy was a BMWCCA instructor, with about a decade seniority, and had an expired comp license. Okay, sweet!

Then I went out with his buddy, and after the out lap, I just had him pull in, same deal, BMWCCA instructor, 6 or 7 years experience, etc.

Speaks to the ITS program BMWCCA runs, the only organization that has a structured invitation only instructor training program. I have yet to get to the ITS level with BMW, hope to in another season or two. My brother was signed off as an instructor two years ago. I have seen the rigor they put their guys through and I am by no means discounting any of the other organizations but it is not easy to be signed off as an Instructor with BMWCCA.