Bama tune 2011+ (moved)

[BlackSunshine]

my canned lund tune made about the same HP as your custom BAMA dyno tune, and that was without a boss manifold.

My argument, then, still holds water. If his Lund tune is making 20 HP less, and I am "assuming" that the dyno operator was being ethical and not modifying dyno variables (like elevation or DA on mustang dynos), then there is something in the Lund tune to which his specific car was not liking. A datalog of that tune might reveal an issue. Is it pulling timing because of knock? Are the AFR's off? there are many variables and guessing is as good as pissing in the wind.

My point is, comparing a "canned" tune to a dyno tune is not entirely fair since every car is different. Hopefully not by much as they are technically supposed to be identical in a perfect world, but nonetheless, factory freaks and lemons still exist.

 

[stang8psi]

My car traps a consistent 118-119, lund tune, mods in Sig.

 

[VTXFrank]

It was on Bama's dyno. When he was done I asked if I could load my Cam tune to see if there was a difference. The point at that time was not to compare to see which made the best power. But it turned out that there was a significant power difference.
And I would hope that both tunes were safe. That would make for shitty business if either one wasn't...

yes, exactly what I said above.

so somewhere between 4-6 pulls were done before the "cammed tune" file was used.

So with that in mind, you see no reason why the final pull would show lower power numbers?

Hah, hah, he's not getting it. He's small. (Gold Member)

I think you need to look up what a mass air flow meter does.

And the term, HEAT SOAK.

Its not like we hot lapped the dyno. Each pull had plenty of cool down time. The last Bama pull made was higher than the First. Then the car cooled while I uploaded the Lund tune and made another pull.

Each pull was done at Op. temp.
Just get over the fact that the Lund tune made less HP. Im not talking 5 or 6 ponies Im talking 20+. A slightly raised coolant temp will not account for 20 hp.

First off, what was the power difference between the un-tweaked Bama canned tune (first pull) and Lund's canned tune? That would be a more fair comparison.

Secondly, while the Coyote engine is excellent at heat dissipation N/A, once you run five or six back to back dyno pulls, you're going to have heat soak issues. Which is what Dave was alluding to that you never caught on about. Each pull with the Bama tune being tweaked in between pulls would take roughly 20 minutes on average between pulls. If not longer as the tuner looks over the datalog, then makes adjustments. But after your last Bama tune pull, all you did was load up the Lund tune and then make another pull. A 5 to 10 minute rest at best. There's a BIG reason why you'll see me, and many others, do our run down the strip, get back in line, shut off the car and pop the hood while waiting for the next run.

Thirdly, and this is directed at Scott-O, I have given WBT a hard time over his hatred of Bama. I just don't do it every single time he does it. I've expressed my thoughts about it and he is free to do whatever he wants afterwards. But we had a very civil conversation about it based on engine knowledge. The reason I'm just blowing off what Crabb has to say is because he is so ignorant about how engines work that it's laughable at best.

Lastly, a car that dyno's 20hp higher on one tune may not get down the track as fast the other tune with 20hp less. It isn't peak dyno numbers that define performance. Performance defines performance.

 

[Seer]

Who cares what it dynos, its what it does on the track. Peak numbers mean shit.

 

[shark tales]

 

[Kingcrabb]

Who cares what it dynos, its what it does on the track. Peak numbers mean shit.

Come April I will get a really fair comparison of both tunes on the dyno (same day) and on the track (same day).

When the weather turns around I will try to work with Lund and get him some logs to fix this tune.

 

[Kingcrabb]

Update:

Got in contact with Lund. He said he doesnt not offer revisions for 'novelty tunes' (cam tune) so I was unable to give him a log.

Today I went up to the BAMA head quarters for some testing. While there we did a legit test between the Bama Race and Lund Ghost cam (unrevised).
Both runs were done at the exact same oil and coolant temps with roughly 15 min cool down between (or more). Either way the temps were the same.
The results.
Bama race made 439/378
Lund Cam made 429/374

Im sure if lund wanted to take the time and revise my tune it would be very close.

 

[Seer]

Update:

Got in contact with Lund. He said he doesnt not offer revisions for 'novelty tunes' (cam tune) so I was unable to give him a log.

Today I went up to the BAMA head quarters for some testing. While there we did a legit test between the Bama Race and Lund Ghost cam (unrevised).
Both runs were done at the exact same oil and coolant temps with roughly 15 min cool down between (or more). Either way the temps were the same.
The results.
Bama race made 439/378
Lund Cam made 429/374

Im sure if lund wanted to take the time and revise my tune it would be very close.

Really? because I have 3 revisions to my old ghost cam tune. Whats your point youre comparing a dyno tune to a mail order.

 

[Scott_0]

lol are you two really going to start again?

 

[Sky Render]

 

[stang8psi]

Seems very close Chris. What was the afr on both?

 

[Laloosh]

I have read this entire thread and realized a couple things.

You guys are arguing over facts that you dont provide.

Seer, you state you opened up these tunes, what is the difference that makes you say bama is not worthy ect ect.

Some statements here I find odd. No need for retune when doing exhaust work due to the maf being calibrated? Same for intake manifold with raised rev limits?

I am new to the 5.0, but far from new to tuning. Personally I think all canned tunes are crap, but it seems like there is no end user tuning available here, or I simply can't find it.

But back to my question, the car runs on widebands that target a preset ratio, cool, it will hit the same ratio, however what happens to the short and long trims? They deviate from acceptable obvious, which is not good.

What happens to timing? More air, more fuel, more power, same octane? Timing stays the same or does this "tune" itself again. AKA knocks and learns, the goal here should not be to ride the knock sensor.

Cam angles, in my experience this isnt even worth arguing over on past cars, a couple ponies here or there.

Seer, any chance you can share your findings as to why you think some tunes are better then others. If not, pm me with a link to the sofware I need to see it for myself, then I will simply post the info myself.

 

[Bigmack2012Gb]

Update:

Got in contact with Lund. He said he doesnt not offer revisions for 'novelty tunes' (cam tune) so I was unable to give him a log.

Today I went up to the BAMA head quarters for some testing. While there we did a legit test between the Bama Race and Lund Ghost cam (unrevised).
Both runs were done at the exact same oil and coolant temps with roughly 15 min cool down between (or more). Either way the temps were the same.
The results.
Bama race made 439/378
Lund Cam made 429/374

Just because a tune makes more Peak Hp doesn't mean its better.

 

[Seer]

I have read this entire thread and realized a couple things.

You guys are arguing over facts that you dont provide.

Seer, you state you opened up these tunes, what is the difference that makes you say bama is not worthy ect ect.

To keep it short, yes I have the ability to read locked calibration files from sct. When a company like BAMA or other big house vendors comes on and makes claims "my tune can do this and the competition can't do it as well." I have to stop and just laugh. In the SCT suite they provide these companies a series of value files based upon pre production mule cars, that have pre built MAF transfers, air/fuel ratios and timing curves. Where a lot of the TiVCT tables are left stock. Sure you find some AF tweaks, some timing tweaks but whats funny is, usually the maf transfer from the value file to the actual production cars are off by a few % which skews most of results anyway. I have also seen cases where independant calibrators have created their own files and even been as meticulous to set values to the 6th decimal place, then you find big houses using these same files. No originality.

Some statements here I find odd. No need for retune when doing exhaust work due to the maf being calibrated? Same for intake manifold with raised rev limits?

You can tune for headers such as the o2 sensor response timing, but the copperhead pcm has an adaptive learn function, no sense in really doing this when there is an abundance of headers out there, with variable o2 sensor relocations, may as well let the pcm find the perfect response time on it's own after a few drive cycles. As for the Boss Manifold, typically you would want to set the proper maf freq values for the extra rpm as well as transient fueling changes throughout the curve.

I am new to the 5.0, but far from new to tuning. Personally I think all canned tunes are crap, but it seems like there is no end user tuning available here, or I simply can't find it.

Nothing that is free, you got SCT Advantage III or you can get creative with a J2534 pass thru device and edit your own hex, did I just reveal a secret? You can also use hptuners to do file comparisons.

But back to my question, the car runs on widebands that target a preset ratio, cool, it will hit the same ratio, however what happens to the short and long trims? They deviate from acceptable obvious, which is not good.

What happens to timing? More air, more fuel, more power, same octane? Timing stays the same or does this "tune" itself again. AKA knocks and learns, the goal here should not be to ride the knock sensor.

Car operates in full time closed loop. and has an abundance of timing tables that work as multipliers and additives depending on the situation the vehicle is in.

Cam angles, in my experience this isnt even worth arguing over on past cars, a couple ponies here or there.

Seer, any chance you can share your findings as to why you think some tunes are better then others. If not, pm me with a link to the sofware I need to see it for myself, then I will simply post the info myself.

I just showed you which direction to start looking in, get out your check book and start playing around with some calibration files

 

[Laloosh]

So if the car learns or adapts how can you possibly blame anything on a tune? Is there proof the knock sensors were turned off or provided with limited range? I am not pro bama or lund or whoever else btw. But some of the claims on here contradict themselves.

All this talk and still no facts or proof. Just two guys that no o e knows arguing over nothing, why believe you over him and vice versa? If you are going to drag a thread out 14 pages, provide proof and shut up the naysayers. Simple.

 

[Seer]

So if the car learns or adapts how can you possibly blame anything on a tune? Is there proof the knock sensors were turned off or provided with limited range? I am not pro bama or lund or whoever else btw. But some of the claims on here contradict themselves.

All this talk and still no facts or proof. Just two guys that no o e knows arguing over nothing, why believe you over him and vice versa? If you are going to drag a thread out 14 pages, provide proof and shut up the naysayers. Simple.

Car doesn't always learn or adapt to all settings.

If you command X amount of timing the car will produce that amount after all additives and multipliers are taken into account. Same with Air/fuel unless the MAF transfer is off.

Why do I need to provide proof of anything? I think its clear I know what I am talking about vs. the average joe who just gives a vendor his $50-150 and loads a tune into his car and goes about his marry way. I'm not a vendor, nor am I a calibrator asking for people's money to buy my product. I'm an independant individual who has the means and know how on how to reverse engineer calibration files. I honestly do not care if you believe what I am saying or think I am full of shit, I have nothing to gain either way.

I couldn't care less if you shelled out the money and time and learned how to calibrate one of these cars on your own, but I do encourage it, this community needs more of it, as I'm tired of seeing the Mustang community just hand over their money blindly not knowing what they are getting then even worse, going on forums and falsely stating "Product X is better than Product Y, but I do not know why, I just think that way so I will post it."

If you do take this on though, you'll see it is a lot more complex than the BMW 1 Series that you came from.

I gave you examples on why some of the big tuning houses sell pretty much the same canned file as their competitions. Did you want screen shots of the table comparisons? Was that what you were getting at? There truly isn't a need to post proof to "shut up the naysayers" because they wouldn't know what you are posting anyway.

 

[Laloosh]

Why do it? Because we are a community thats why. As far as msd81, have you ever flashed one? Willing to bet it makes the copperhead look ancient.

It just seems odd how you talk about all this without actually talking about it. What is the point of that. Maybe it is just me but to me it seems like you have a basic understanding of how to tune a car and that is where it stops. Lets get technical in a thread instead of saying lund bama xyz. In all honesty i have a hard time believing a simple tune intake car can be so far off the chart that it blows rings from a canned tune. Something else in the code is going on.

I just read up on the corral forum and someone posted a log a bone stock car spiking the af mid pull. It was only for 500 or so rpms but why? Cam transition?

I also recieved bone stock and bama logs from a friend who recently got dynoed and based on what he logged all it looked like was timing went up 4-5 degrees. The af stayed the same. It was a bama tune.

Btw i am not calling you out so dont take it as that. You say people wont understand and i say some will and as the community matures it will only get better.

 

[Seer]

Why do it? Because we are a community thats why. As far as msd81, have you ever flashed one? Willing to bet it makes the copperhead look ancient.

It just seems odd how you talk about all this without actually talking about. What is the point of that. Maybe it is just me but to me it seems like you have a basic understand of how to tune a car and that is where it stops. Lets get technical in a thread instead of saying lund bama xyz. In all honesty i have a hard time believing a simple tune intake car can be so far off the chart that it blows rings from a canned tune. Something else is the code is going on.

I just read up on the corral forum and someone posted a log a bone stock car spiking the af mid pull. It was only for 500 or so rpms but why? Cam transition?

I also reciever bone stock and bama logs from a frien who recently got dynoed and based on what he logged all it looked like was timing went up 4-5 degrees. The af stayed the same. It was a bama tune.

Btw i am not calling you out so dont take it as that. You say people wont understand and i say some will and as the community matures it will only get better.

You're not going to get an arguement from me stating bone stock coyotes blow #8. I firmly agree that there is a manufacturing defect somewhere in the line process that is causing this. As a Six Sigma Black Belt, I know in all manufacturing processes there are X amount of Faults per million depending on their sigma shift they certified their line at.

My personal opinion is that there is an issue with the ringland manufacture and with the proper amount of heat introduced into the cylinder and the release of excess carbon from the ringland it becomes brittle and snaps. Which leads one to start going down the question of "Why" and finding root cause. It could lead you into varying directions such as "why is there excess heat in the cylinder?"

"Why is the cooling not proper to maintain cylinder temperatures?" etc etc.

As far as your original question about the MSD81, the only real complexities that unit presents is its hardware/software sync modes and its revision counters. That has nothing to do with the actual calibration tables themself. So not a good example on your part.

As far as my "basic understanding"? I do not claim to be a calibrator, I am actually more of a data miner, with an advanced understanding of how engine control systems work. Anyone can sit down in front of a pc and look at charts, histograms and data logs and make revisions to a calibration file when knowing the absolute thresholds after reading a book on EFI calibrations or taking a few classes. Just because I do not go into explicit detail does not show a lack of knowledge, stop assuming.

I'm not going to go down this road over and over about maturing this community, the problem is the tools that are available to the general public. There currently is not an open source solution out there for this platform that is viable. The best platform out there is SCT Advantage III and even it has its limitations and requires dealer licensing. The less expensive version, Pro Racer is extremely limited.

As far as your BAMA, examples I can't comment on why it did what it did, I do not have the logs available to me to view.

Edit: I'm also probably one of hundreds who can read locked files

 

[Bigmack2012Gb]

As a Six Sigma Black Belt

you know karate?

 

[Seer]

you know karate?