Help me out w/ suspension

BMR Tech

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Definitely a balancing act.

Stock, the axle steer is only around 2.4% with the driver aboard, so it doesn't take much axle side LCA pivot relocation to put you into loose rear axle steer. Only a 1" relocation puts axle steer at something like 3.5% in the vehicle oversteer direction. It might get you around slaloms a little more freely that way, while being more demanding to drive. I would expect the car to be twitchier on lift-throttle.


On edit, I don't really know where axle steer might become too loose for anybody, or for what driving conditions. But I seriously doubt I'd want any loose steer at all out on a big track or any more than just a tiny bit in my street driving. As consequences become more severe (relative to most autocross layouts), a little conservatism is indicated.


Norm

Good post.

One thing I have noticed is the amazing amount of different scenarios that my customers choose to run, when talking about AS% / IC location, both on the street, drag-strip, and road course.

It seems as if there are so many variables, that is truly is more complicated than just running #'s through a calculator and going by what works best on paper.

A great example is, I have two customers that have similar suspensions. (They are road course guys) They are great friends, one has a 3950lb GT500 with 700HP, the other has a Boss302 with 420rwhp, and much lighter, especially up front. Both cars at at similar ride height, with similar suspension modifications/components, and the GT500 performs better in the real world (with multiple drivers) with the rear pivot of the LCA mounted 4" lower than the factory position, with the factory mounting point on the UCA. The Boss302 performs it's best with the LCA 2" lower than the factory point, and the UCA in the stock position.

I love a good tech thread. But I am still in favor of real world testing. What one driver is uncomfortable with, the next driver may not mind. Some people prefer the cons on paper, due to the benefit of the pros. Vice Versus.
 

modernbeat

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...I love a good tech thread. But I am still in favor of real world testing. What one driver is uncomfortable with, the next driver may not mind. Some people prefer the cons on paper, due to the benefit of the pros. Vice Versus.

And that is why we test-test-test. Some of the subjects of discussion in this thread can make 0.01% improvement in lap times and are only useful after the rest of the car has been modified to suit - and that usually includes spherical bearings and metal bushings.

For most drivers, getting the right wheel and tire, spring rate, and gross suspension adjustments is hard enough. Going beyond those items before you have them nailed down is a waste of time. If you haven't tested multiple spring rates and alignments, there's hardly a need to go further. The exception (there's always an exception, nothing is absolute) is if you are designing a car from scratch. And I've even seen a huge number of builders get lost in the minutiae before fixing horrible issues with major components in the Lotus-7 groups.

And that testing? It's not that hard. We researched, bought and configured some simple but robust and accurate timing gear that is now almost obsolete because of onboard GPS lap timing. We rent an autocross site or track, usually on a weekday to get a cheaper rate. We take the parts to be tested and the tools to remove/install/adjust them. And last we use both simple data acquisition (cameras, timers) and complex (OBDII recorders, accelerometers, and specialized sensors) to record the event so it can be evaluated back at the shop. The cost of data acquisition is coming down every year and some versions are as simple as an iPhone app.

This last year has seen us testing a number of cars, but the standouts are the red Mustang GT verifying our setup with the E-Street Prepared rear spoiler before the Solo Nationals...

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...the half-finished Brianne Corn Pikes Peak Subaru STi that came in for a last minute makeover before the event...

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...and although Terry will deny it's a Vorshlag car, the V6 Firebird Chump Car that underwent proof-of-concept testing to decide whether it even has the potential to be raced.

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We test suspension movement and speed and before we spun off AST-USA as a seperate company, we tested dampers.

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But before whole-car testing, we start by finding out what we are really working with. We measure the parts we'll be working with. We're famous (imfamous?) for pictures of parts on scales, but we fit dozens of wheels to cars and we also rate springs.

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And after all of that, we publish as much of the info as we can so our community, not just our customers, can benefit from it.

Along those lines, we've been collecting a LOT of S197 OEM and aftermarket spring data and I expect Terry to put it all together in a coherent post and put it on S197forum.com
 

modernbeat

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And on testing, one of the best explained how-to and why-do books for motorsports testing is Near Robert's Think Fast. I've used some of his tips to revise some of my testing methods and if you are just getting started, it's an excellent read on what to pay attention to, and what to leave for later. It's helped a number of my fellow racers to see the forest instead of the trees.

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Sam Strano

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Don't want to get too off topic here, but I have to address this. Having been in the business for a long time, I used to be idealistic about trying to help everyone, hoping they'd respect that. Tried to be completely open for years and have been beaten down for trying. The old saying no good deed goes unpunished, well... often true.

Turns out, many just want the information and don't really show much respect for the knowledge gained. Since I'm the epitome of a small business and don't have a bunch of minions to do my bidding leaving me time to write books and take photos of my day, I really can't spend my time doing free public service. I've got bills too, and it costs me a lot of time and money to do what I do, to learn what I've learned... on my own. Add to that I run more National events than most anyone I know, and actually sponsor a number of sites like this one (which isn't free, I do pay for the privilege, and frankly there are more than a few posts that come from non-sponsors about various parts and I tend to keep my mouth shut... but it does back to the respect and why I don't feel I can just tell the world how to do everything. To each his own, and I know that some folks will hate that. But others, particularly those who are in business, understand that this world is not perfect. :)

And it's not like I hide much. Most anyone who has ever called pretty well knows what I run and why. And we probably had at least a 30 minute conversation, or more... even if they didn't buy an parts. I'm just not a blogger, and I have time and time again seen someone say "but you said on the internet that" when it's taken completely out of the context meant. So I prefer to deal with folks on a personal level. To get back on point. I'd be happy to discuss with any potential customer who is willing to hear me out, why I think what I think. Here's the critical point relating to this thread and what led to this point; I'll talk about 3 link vs. TA, just like I did here. And I'd welcome the opportunity.

Bottom line, those of use with businesses choose to run them the way we choose to run them to best suit what we want the service to be. I've chosen to try and help people on an individual basis by talking to them. Some choose to try and reach more folks with big pushes. Both can work, I'm more like your small local car dealer or hardware store vs. the Superstores and Wal-Marts of the world... and I prefer it that way.
 

BMR Tech

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This. After a certain point, car setup depends on how the driver wants his car to "feel."

Yes. A great example I can use, is Robin Riner's S197 American Iron car. He installed a set of our A-Arms on his car, ran them, and called us back to let us know how much better his track times were with them on the car (he set a new PB with them on his first trip to the track)

He was stunned, as he wasn't even running much negative camber, in comparison to what he ran on his stock/FRPP front arms. We spoke in depth, and he stated that the increase in performance was simply due to the enhanced feel and confidence in steering and response.

To perform best, a driver must have confidence in their car, and confidence in their driving; and that typically takes a set-up that is acquired through testing.

Too often, people call me and want all the parts that duplicate another persons race car. For drag-racing, it's typically a good path, for cornering it is like playing the lottery.

And that is why we test-test-test.

I see that, and would have to say you guys test with the best of them.

One thing I noticed though, is that you guys are testing LCA rear pivot points at either the stock height, or the (1) position that the Whiteline brackets offer. Since you guys test a lot, what are your thoughts on that single position? Have you baselined/plotted your settings, specifically IC/AS%.....and noted the changes in relation to roll-steer, brake-hop, axle rotation, corner exits and high speed stability?

Since this is one topic that never seems to go away, I'd love to see what your opinions and results are on IC/AS% for the set-ups that you have run with. This topic is particularly interesting to me, for good number of reasons. :thumb2:
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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One thing I noticed though, is that you guys are testing LCA rear pivot points at either the stock height, or the (1) position that the Whiteline brackets offer. Since you guys test a lot, what are your thoughts on that single position? Have you baselined/plotted your settings, specifically IC/AS%.....and noted the changes in relation to roll-steer, brake-hop, axle rotation, corner exits and high speed stability?

Since this is one topic that never seems to go away, I'd love to see what your opinions and results are on IC/AS% for the set-ups that you have run with. This topic is particularly interesting to me, for good number of reasons. :thumb2:
This is actually a good idea for a separate test all on its own - using a multi-point relocation bracket - then tested at low speeds (autocross) and at higher speed (road course) courses. And yes, having more LCA holes to test with could be helpful, and that would point out advantages for brackets like those from BMR. We have installed (and modified/welded/painted) some of your brackets on a customer car and they seemed pretty nice...

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Extra adjustment range never hurts testing on a competition car. I'm not sure if these extra adjustments would be as important to road race/autocross guys as drag racers, but it could be. I've never seen these really tested definitely on an S197 for road course or autocross use, so it sounds like a good place for us to look.

Side note: for the last 2 years of S197 testing we've done we were using a car built around an SCCA class that was very restrictive and that didn't allow axle LCA relocation brackets. It seems stupid to limit one of the most popular and potentially most helpful mods on a solid axle car, but that's just one of the joys of "SCCA Logic". :D There are all sorts of common aftermarket suspension products that they don't allow, and they are eager to make more parts illegal every day, it seems.

So now that we are no longer building around SCCA autocross classes (yay) with our S197s we can use more products and test more things. I do feel that axle relocation brackets are one of the more helpful fixes for the rear geometry on lowered cars available, and they are very affordable.

More tests we need to tackle...
 

modernbeat

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...Turns out, many just want the information and don't really show much respect for the knowledge gained. Since I'm the epitome of a small business and don't have a bunch of minions to do my bidding leaving me time to write books and take photos of my day, I really can't spend my time doing free public service.

Sam, if you are referring to ME as MINION, I prefer to be called by my title and profession - engineer.

And we don't give out the data -free-. We expect educated people will become our customers. Since we can't talk to everyone on the phone, we address them on the web where our posts on our own site and on the forums can reach anyone, anytime and remain there for future searches.
 

Sam Strano

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It would seem I've offended someone with my previous post. My bad for trying to be honest. :( Though I don't really know what I said that was so bad.

So let's try this tact instead. There are various options and opinions and vendors you can choose from. I'd talk to them and see where the conversations land you. You can talk theory all day, theories don't drive cars. So, call around, do your due diligence, and make some decisions based on personal interaction. Some people explain better, some type better.... Everyone has their strength, but in the end you guys want what works, right? I'd think that is worth a little better research than clicking through the web. I spend about 1/2 my time fixing old setups that folks don't like. If I had a dollar for everytime I heard "I read on the internet..." I'd have a LOT of dollars.
 

Sam Strano

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Sam, if you are referring to ME as MINION, I prefer to be called by my title and profession - engineer.

And we don't give out the data -free-. We expect educated people will become our customers. Since we can't talk to everyone on the phone, we address them on the web where our posts on our own site and on the forums can reach anyone, anytime and remain there for future searches.

As I told you in response to your not very cheery PM.. I actually wasn't talking about you. You might be surprised to find out that my world has lots of things in it..... And there are lots of companies that have dedicated people doing internet sales. If you identify with those folks, what can I say, engineer or otherwise?

You can do whatever you want. I don't care what you tell people for free or whatever, in fact I don't know what your issue is. I won't post a million details online, doesn't make me a bad guy. If you want to, go ahead it's never stopped you before. Fair enough?

I prefer a personal interaction if possible. Shoot me. Can we stop playing this game now?
 

modernbeat

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Sam, I don't speak in vague terms trying to obfuscate the truth. I lay out what I know for public criticism and it becomes a record of what I say.

Why don't you tell me which one of the "lots of companies" gives out free data, has dedicated people doing internet sales, and minions writing books and taking photos? If you weren't talking about me, then who?
 

applesauce683

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As I told you in response to your not very cheery PM.. I actually wasn't talking about you. You might be surprised to find out that my world has lots of things in it..... And there are lots of companies that have dedicated people doing internet sales. If you identify with those folks, what can I say, engineer or otherwise?

You can do whatever you want. I don't care what you tell people for free or whatever, in fact I don't know what your issue is. I won't post a million details online, doesn't make me a bad guy. If you want to, go ahead it's never stopped you before. Fair enough?

I prefer a personal interaction if possible. Shoot me. Can we stop playing this game now?

Sam, I believe you are the one that is coming off looking like a complete ass in these posts. For you to basically attack the guys at Vorshlag, unprovoked, makes you look bad. But wait, you are a multiple time national winner in autocross, so you must be king.:bravo:

The funny thing is, I have been a customer of both companies, and I will never again buy from you because on the phone and in your posts, you seem like a complete douche. And it isn't because 'you are just an honest guy', it is because you are a pompous ass! But I am not an autocross champion, so what do I know?
 
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2008 V6

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I was going to keep my mouth shut BUT -

KAKAKKAKAKAAAAA CAAANNNN't WE all just get along!

I realize this is business but come on - Both of you are valuable resources for information and greatly appreciated by Myself & I'm sure others. Definitely saved me time in R&D & helped to educate me in the S197 chassis. So please don't draw each other in.

No one take this Personal - please
Does make interesting reading though.
 

jayman33

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I would like to personally thank Mr. McDaniel and Mr. Fair. Without guys like you in this business to offer up crucial knowledge without bloating about it makes it very enjoyable. The detail and time that you guys put into your responses show the love, education, experience and dedication that you have in this sport. I truly appreciate all of the knowledge you have given me in a short amount of time.
 

sheizasosay

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Does/did Vorahlag ever compete in the same class as Sam in autocross in the same year?


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Whiskey11

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Does/did Vorahlag ever compete in the same class as Sam in autocross in the same year?


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Not to my knowledge no. Terry ran their 2011 in ESP Last year and STX (not at nationals) the year before IIRC. You can see on their webpage the full build log from STX all the way to ESP and present in their forum section. It's a GREAT read.

Terry placed 4th last year in ESP which is nothing short of amazing given the stats on his car (mostly weight) compared to those of the remaining top cars. I can't wait to him and the car (whichever he ends up bringing :D) at Spring Nationals and Nationals again and I hope he doesn't mind me chatting with him again! :)
 

Sky Render

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Vorshlag's Mustang also too first in their class (RWD) at Global Time Attack Texas.

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BMR Tech

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Terry, Jason, I think I speak for the majority, most of us truly appreciate the information you provide and the way in which you provide it.

Sam and BMR have gone "rounds" for years, you just have to get used to his style and basically take what he says with a grain of salt, or just ignore him; he can be relentless.

Terry, I would love to see your testing. We simply do not have the time these days to do much of any testing on our current production pieces, as we are trying to keep up with demand, and new products at this moment. As for those BMR Brackets, I am very surprised that you had to modify the bracket that much for sway-bar clearance...we typically do not have that issue. What rear bar is that, and does it not have limiters by the rear links?
 

Sam Strano

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I can be relentless. Of course that's only because I don't much like a lot of bulls*it. When BMR does things like claim what they have is the best, then turn around and change their stuff to suddenly be a lot more like someone else's when they realize they missed the boat, or pick up product lines they never had before when someone else is using and winning on them. I guess if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

And fwiw, when the owner of the company tells others that it's his mission to drive me out of business.... yeah, I take it personally. Of course that happened after I was offered a max. discount with BMR (by the owner), but on the condition that I drop UMI completely. Sorry, that's not how I work and I was never looking to be a BMR dealer anyway, he came to me with that offer. When I refused then it became a mission to shut me down. What's funny Kelly.... you and I have gotten along fine. If I'm so bad you'd think I'd have been on you constantly, yet we manage to co-exist at least up to now.

So yeah, I guess I'm sensitive and "relentless". This is how I make a living, and how I've always made a living. I don't work on commission, when you call you get me... the owner. The guy who wins the events, etc.

Bottom line, it's what I said before. We run our businesses the way we think is best. I'm sure none of us have the same motives, that's what makes the world go 'round. Fine. I think it's best for people to have real live conversations with real live people, or do whatever they need to in order to fully understand what they need to understand. If you guys want to do it virtually, ok. I can't. And I spend way too much time every day debunking what can be, at times, some pretty horrific things that people have pieced together from online sources. Even if one bit of information is right, if something contradicts it then they get confused. I like to just cut through the crap. If you can do that online, by all means do it.
 
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BMR Tech

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Sam, I have no "beef" with you whatsoever. Let's not bring that dark-side issues over this way, as I won't even entertain it.

We have probably gotten along fine because we usually tend to agree, when it pertains to S197 Suspension modification and geometry. When it comes to everything else, I simply take what you say with a grain of salt, or ignore you. That's not a bad thing, it just means that I don't want to bring the GM stuff over to the Ford side, that's all.
 

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