NOT Another...Yes...another auotx build thread

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Well... making a strut shaft is actually extremely DIFFICULT without the right tools and chemical processes. Even AST, which is owned and located inside a massive CNC factory, has the shafts made by an outside vendor who specializes in gun-drilled shafts. Then you have to have the shaft chromed - which is impossible to do correctly in the United States (for EPA reasons). To get the shafts made to the proper tolerance and good prices they used to order these in 10,000 units at a time.



Once a new shaft is acquired, then the strut assembly can be rebuilt. That part is fairly easy - if you have the right tools, Nitrogen fill rig, shims, seals and experience.

 

[2008 V6]

Well... making a strut shaft is actually extremely DIFFICULT without the right tools and chemical processes. Even AST, which is owned and located inside a massive CNC factory, has the shafts made by an outside vendor who specializes in gun-drilled shafts. Then you have to have the shaft chromed - which is impossible to do correctly in the United States (for EPA reasons). To get the shafts made to the proper tolerance and good prices they used to order these in 10,000 units at a time.

In Kalifornia we are screwed OSHA, CARB to name a few. (Most – SELF FUNDED) In relatively freer States such as Texas, I didn’t think would be as much of a problem. Hard Chrome is excellent but much better processes are available – Gun drilling is not that uncommon nor is grinding. UPS is quick for such a small item. It all comes down to $$$$. What you are willing to spend. A new shaft is obliviously cheaper but if not available, other options must be dealt with.

 

[2008 V6]

Csamsh, sorry for shitting up the thread.

++1

Bad day at work
No need to a PIA to others

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

In Kalifornia we are screwed OSHA, CARB to name a few. (Most – SELF FUNDED) In relatively freer States such as Texas, I didn’t think would be as much of a problem. Hard Chrome is excellent but much better processes are available – Gun drilling is not that uncommon nor is grinding. UPS is quick for such a small item. It all comes down to $$$$. What you are willing to spend. A new shaft is obliviously cheaper but if not available, other options must be dealt with.

Trust me, we have looked into this many times, with many engineering eyeballs: making quality/strong/dimensionally correct gun-drilled and properly chromed strut shafts in the USA really is NOT as easy as you might think. COST does become a major factor, of course. You cannot get the proper chrome done in the USA, period. Making ONE of these shafts might cost you $1500, but instead you might be able to buy a replacement shaft from AST for like 100-150 euros. If they have them in stock... in Holland.

But the difference between a high end European built monotube adjustable coilover strut assembly vs a cheap Chinese or other sourced coilover strut is immense. Having been to the AST factory multiple times, and seeing many dozens of brands of coilovers taken apart or on a dyno, I can say that with confidence. On the "other stuff" the chrome always sucks (ie: it fails quickly), the seals always leak, and the shafts usually bend and the units tend to fail very quickly - not to mention the massive differences in the housings, valving, adjustment, dyno properties and more. That's what you get when you just "make something" based off of somebody else's product, and do it on the cheap. I could write volumes... but nobody cares. If it were easy EVERYONE would be making these things. As it is virtually NOBODY makes quality monotubes in the USA, save for 2 or 3 places, and they often import the shafts and/or some other components from Europe. MCS has their shafts made there but assembles each damper here - and for good reason.

 

[2008 V6]

Trust me, we have looked into this many times, with many engineering eyeballs: making quality/strong/dimensionally correct gun-drilled and properly chromed strut shafts in the USA really is NOT as easy as you might think. COST does become a major factor, of course. You cannot get the proper chrome done in the USA, period. Making ONE of these shafts might cost you $1500, but instead you might be able to buy a replacement shaft from AST for like 100-150 euros. If they have them in stock... in Holland.

Terry – I believe you -
Hear I am makin new friends every day because of my own personality deficiency with anal retentiveness.

– OP’s original post on this subject–

Well I broke a strut. Tried to take the 22mm nut off the top of the strut, impact wouldn't get it, so I used two wrenches (like I have in the past...maybe this is not the best idea) and I just sheared off the top where the adjuster and everything is.

Hopefully I can get it fixed, but it looks like the 2014 season is over.

The best laid plans...

My response - To last the rest of the season – Assuming no strut shaft available because of (It looks like the 2014 season is over and past AST availability in the USA)

That sucks –
I thought Vorshlag rebuilt ASTs ?

(1)You could have a new shaft machined and that should last you for the rest of the season – no street driving.

(2) Machine new shaft, harden & have ground

(3) Machine new shaft, hard Chrome, have ground

Depends upon how much time & $$$ you want to invest.

2nd response – Not Rocket science -
Machine processes involved and how many specialized shops needed ending with Time & $$$$$$ invested.

3rd response -
Personal comparative invested to obtain the beginning basic knowledge for machining operations for someone with no knowledge in the field - for a similar item
Ending again in Time & $$$$$$

4th response Chrome availability in Texas and stating there are other are other alternatives to chrome and –
A new shaft is oblivious cheaper but if not available other options must be dealt with –
My post -

In Kalifornia we are screwed OSHA, CARB to name a few. (Most – SELF FUNDED) In relatively freer States such as Texas, I didn’t think would be as much of a problem. Hard Chrome is excellent but much better processes are available – Gun drilling is not that uncommon nor is grinding. UPS is quick for such a small item. It all comes down to $$$$. What you are willing to spend. A new shaft is obliviously cheaper but if not available, other options must be dealt with.

Terry I appreciate your responses and I am sure you have researched the subject completely – You are concerned with a cost effective marketable solution not making one shaft needed to complete a season. All data you have contributed, in multiple threads, is greatly appreciated by myself as well as just about everyone else here. This is not about cost effectiveness but getting a shaft made that will work – enough to finish the season or longer & $$$$ being the factor. It all come’s down to my original comparative - Chump car or Formula one.
We all fall somewhere in that range and how much time & money we are willing to invest as to what level of competition we able to afford & willing to compete in - My current level – Just above Chump car. Love chump car though and would love to run in one.

CSAMSH Very sorry for continuing to SHT on this subject and I will end it here.
I truly hope you find solution to your problem

 

[csamsh]

I don't know what we're yelling about

 

[2008 V6]

I don't know what we're yelling about

I guess it might look like yelling but nothing in bold –
Not meant to be construed that way -
Not coming from a raving lunatic either though I’m bias.
Should have re-read it and made it more congenial.
Again hope you are able to solve your dilemma.

 

[csamsh]

If anybody's wondering exactly what happened...here's a photo.

...sooo I'll need a new shaft. I guess I'll take this opportunity for a rebuild/revalve too.

Also, this will sound like a sales pitch, but these camber plates are like the day I put them on. Bearings have absolutely zero slop/noise after two seasons, everything is still tight, coating is still really nice, no corrosion, etc. Not bad.

Also, I sat down and did some cost/run rough calculations on the cost of running AST 4150's vs. Koni Yellows. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with the function of the AST's, I just stupidly broke one. Completely human error.

Here's my formula: Cost/(Street miles/1000 + track miles/5 + autox runs)

I have no idea if this is any good...if 5 track miles are as "damaging" to a damper as an autox run...or anything else, it's completely arbitrary.

I ran ~10000 street miles, one track day (~50 track miles, only 3 sessions), and 5 autox events on my Koni Yellows before I blew a damper (rear right? it was one of the rears....you could push it down and it wouldn't come back up) cost of dampers: $850. Cost per "run" = $15

The AST's went through ~5000 street miles, ~500 track miles, and ~25 autox events. Cost of dampers = $2250. Cost per "run" = $8. Again, the AST's are nowhere close to blown, the dampers themselves are fine.

Is cheap expensive sometimes? I think it could be.

I've always been one to "overbuild, overbuy, overkill" or maybe I just want to justify my purchases, but I've been happy with buying the good stuff and not having to touch it or think about it. YMMV.

 

[Boaisy]

duct tape.

 

[csamsh]

duct tape.

 

[Thinkkker]

Yea, I still have the Vorshlag plates on my car. I think around 20k+ miles on the street, and 4 years of Autox, track, whatever events? I washed them when I put them back on the car the other month.

 

[Whiskey11]

I've always wondered why damper companies don't put flats on the portion of the shaft nearest the top mounting portion where the shock/strut doesn't get to because of the bump stops but so you can access it with a large wrench and avoid these tiny hex head tops that just break way too easily even under the moderate torque specs required to tighten these down.

 

[csamsh]

I've always wondered why damper companies don't put flats on the portion of the shaft nearest the top mounting portion where the shock/strut doesn't get to because of the bump stops but so you can access it with a large wrench and avoid these tiny hex head tops that just break way too easily even under the moderate torque specs required to tighten these down.

RIGHT?!?!

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Well I broke a strut. Tried to take the 22mm nut off the top of the strut, impact wouldn't get it, so I used two wrenches (like I have in the past...maybe this is not the best idea) and I just sheared off the top where the adjuster and everything is.
...

How was the nut installed?.....impact wrench?

 

[claudermilk]

Is cheap expensive sometimes? I think it could be.

I've always been one to "overbuild, overbuy, overkill" or maybe I just want to justify my purchases, but I've been happy with buying the good stuff and not having to touch it or think about it. YMMV.

Yup. In general I try to subscribe to the "buy once, cry once" school of thought. Buy the quality piece and never think about it again.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

How was the nut installed?.....impact wrench?

We actually recommend using an impact to install a strut top nut.

From our instructions: To tighten these Nylon-locking strut top nuts properly you have to give it a whack with the impact gun. You will never get it tight with hand tools. A typical M14-1.5 nylock top nut needs 71 N-m (52 ft-lbs) of torque. That's nearly impossible to tighten with a proper torque wrench (mostly because there's no way to hold the top of the shaft at the "flats" or "hex") so we always use an impact, pulse the nut down, and listen... when the sound of the gun changes pitch you've bottomed the parts on the shaft and then STOP. Don't kill it.

This is a somewhat tricky procedure to explain to someone via phone or email but about 90% of the time people that listen to our instructions do it right. These two problems can occur if done wrong:

1. People don't tighten the top nut properly, the nut stays loose, allows a lot of movement/noise, and then the spherical top mount rattles around, which damages the Teflon lining on the spherical.
2. Someone OVER-tightens the top nut and crushes the Teflon lining out of the sphericial from day one. Then it rattles and needs to be replaced. Or worse - they seize the top nut onto the shaft and can break the shaft tip off (very rare, but as you can see, it happens".

On a 22mm strut shaft we recommend a 1/2" impact gun. On a 12-14mm shock shaft we recommend a 3/8" impact gun (less torque). Trying to tighten a top nut by hand is a really good way to ruin the shaft.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

I do mine by hand but it seems your method would work just fine.

 

[csamsh]

Yeah that's exactly how I tightened it, actually I followed the exact directions that Terry's picture came from...maybe my impact batteries (yeah...I know...batteries...) are giving up the ghost and don't have the grunt to spin the nut off anymore. It struggles with loosening a lug nut...so yeah.

 

[Boaisy]

Terry's gun looks like it says Titanium though. Maybe your impact drill isn't Titanium.

 

[csamsh]

Terry's gun looks like it says Titanium though. Maybe your impact drill isn't Titanium.

Definitely not. I think mine says is made of "Hecho en Mexico"