Not your typical cam position sensor issue

[Flapjack]

So after more than a year of sitting around and ignoring my car because I was so pissed off at it, I decided to call MMR and see if they'd warranty the engine that was knocking. Not sure why it went, but a main bearing came apart and made a nice groove in the crankshaft and chewed up the rod a bit. MMR was awesome. They refreshed the engine... new rings, bearings, crankshaft, and replaced the rod, but only charged me shipping. Very happy with them as of late.

Anyways, as always seems to happen with me, on the first startup, the cam timing was off. It always seems to want to jump a tooth when it starts. It's driving me crazy. Especially since the turbo flange on the driver's side prevents the valve cover from coming off, so the header has to come off on that side, which means the engine has to be lifted, which means the intake has to come off, etc. I've tried the garden sprayer trick before, and that doesn't help. Mark at MMR recommended not doing that, as he said it rarely helps, and it flushes the pre-assembly lube that is important for the first startup. Anyways...

On the first startup, the engine initially sounded good. After it had warmed up a bit, it stumbled and stalled out. Subsequent starts were harder, and required the pedal all the way down/throttle wide open to start.... probably the cylinders washed with fuel. That's when I did the compression test and found it to be about 40psi off on each side.

I took the car apart removed the valve covers. The cams were off by two teeth on each side. I re-timed them, then put it back together enough to do a compression test, which looked great. I continued working until I have it all back together and ready to start.

I started it up, only to have it behave the same way... stumbling, running rich, and stalling if I don't keep giving it gas. This time, however, it threw a wrench light. There were no CELs tripped, so I restarted it and tried to keep it running. Within a few seconds, a CEL for P0345 (bank 2 cam position sensor) went off. I cleared it, but it came right back. No other codes have tripped.

Now before everyone says "it's your alternator", I have a few inputs. One, it was working perfectly before I R&R'd the engine. Also, the alternator seems to 100% of the time trip P0340/P0344... not P0345, which indicates the circuit itself is not working (PCM sees no input from CMP).

I have two brand new CMP sensors that I bought and never needed, so I replaced them and got the exact same behavior. I checked the CMP harness/plug and couldn't find anything wrong. I also checked to make sure the CKP sensor was plugged in snug. I checked all the coil packs to make sure they were seated and plugged in. I also redid the compression test (scared to death it would be off again), but it was right where it usually is for this altitude (140-150psi with a dry test at 7400ft altitude).

I did pull the alternator to check at AutoZone/O'Reilly's on the way home, but I'm not holding my breath. My gut tells me it has something to do with one of the two wires between the harness plug and the PCM, but I can't find anything cut or pinched.

I've thought about ohm'ing out the wires, as well as possibly getting a cheap oscilloscope to see if they are triggering at different times, which might indicate the camshaft toner ring is off. But I doubt that is it, as the timing marks lined up correctly, and the compression seems good on each side.

Anything I'm missing?

**EDIT**
I forgot to add, I have no cam phasers/solenoids. They are completely removed/blocked out using the block plates from the 3v V10.

 

[Flapjack]

I had the alternator tested last night. I passed without issue.

I also double-checked all the grounds. Not sure what to do at this point.

Is there any way the cams can be 'off', but still have good compression? In every case a tooth has jumped on me, the compression was always low. After I adjusted them, compression went up around 50psi to 150-160. I know that sounds low, but it's normally what I get at this altitude (11.8psi air pressure, vs 14.7psi at sea level).

If the cams were too far forward, I'd still have low compression, right? Also, the compression is slightly higher on the bank throwing the code. I think it was about 150 on the passenger, and closer to 160 on the driver's side. I only checked one plug, however, and didn't remove the others. I will do a full, wet compression test tonight, with all the plugs removed.

 

[Flapjack]

I just got back from testing the compression again. I also ran it a bit to see if I could replicate exactly what happened before (which it did). With the battery pulled for a few hours, it’ll run/idle for at least 5 minutes. If I start bringing up the RPMs, the wrench light comes on around 1500-2000rpm. The engine shuts off. Starting again is tough. I have to turn the key completely off, then it’ll start again. Bringing up the RPM past 1000 will then set the CEL of P0345. I can pull the battery and repeat with the exact same results. The last time the cam timing was off (same engine), it was completely drivable. It just never straightened out on the fuel trims. A compression test back then (when the cams were off two teeth) was ~100psi across all cylinders.

I went back and looked at my records from when the engine was running good, and the compression was not as high as I remembered. I was also reading the gauge wrong the other day when I quoted 150-160psi for the numbers (doh).

Here is the test from 2012:

------------------
4: 140	8: 145
3: 140	7: 142
2: 142	6: 145
1: 145	5: 142
------------------

Here is today’s test:

------------------
4: 134	8: 142
3: 131	7: 139
2: 132	6: 145
1: 135	5: 141
------------------

Hopefully the timing is ok. I would imagine one tooth off would make for more than a 8-10psi difference between banks, but I could be wrong. Also, the P0345 code indicates bank 2, which has slightly higher compression than bank 1.

Anyone?

 

[Flapjack]

Email back and forth with MMR. They think the cam toner ring may be moving independently of the cam itself, since the compression doesn't appear to be off at all on that side. I didn't think that was possible, but they've said it is.

I'm wondering now if I can remove CMP sensor, stick a screwdriver in there to "catch" the toner fingers, and see if it gives while the crank and camshaft turn...

First email:

Hi Chris, the compression #’s are all very consistent and look perfect for a new engine, we do not see any issue there or believe that you have set the cam timing wrong. I do wonder if one of the trigger wheels on the camshaft twisted at the time of installation however as that would certainly give the trouble and code you have but would not effect cam timing or compression.

My reply:

Thanks for the reply. I have no reason to believe they twisted. None of the cam toner fingers were bent, either. However, I'm having a hard time remembering how they are secured. Is it bolted down by the cam bolt? If that were the case *maybe* it could spin. But I also seem to remember 4-5 rounded bolts around the wheel. If I've never removed them, I can't see how they could move at all.

Next MMR reply:

Chris, the trigger wheel is retained by 3 shallow roll pins, the shear off very easily and turn as the bolt is tightened. if they have been removed and installed a few times this is likely the issue.

 

[blownGTvert]

Sounds like your going need to pull the cam covers.

 

[swflastang05]

Email back and forth with MMR. They think the cam toner ring may be moving independently of the cam itself, since the compression doesn't appear to be off at all on that side. I didn't think that was possible, but they've said it is.

^^I've had one of those rings spin on me while torquing the cam bolt down, it happens and if you're not paying super close attention you'll never even notice it. MMR is right there's just three very small pins that are kind of riveted to hold that wheel on. You'll obviously have to pull the valve covers to check again but from there you'll know right away if that;s it or not, just get a good grip on the wheel and see if it moves separately from the phaser gear assembly or not (by hand only of course), if so it's junk and you found your issue. Otherwise did you dial in your cams or just line up the three marks?

 

[Flapjack]

^^I've had one of those rings spin on me while torquing the cam bolt down, it happens and if you're not paying super close attention you'll never even notice it. MMR is right there's just three very small pins that are kind of riveted to hold that wheel on. You'll obviously have to pull the valve covers to check again but from there you'll know right away if that;s it or not, just get a good grip on the wheel and see if it moves separately from the phaser gear assembly or not (by hand only of course), if so it's junk and you found your issue. Otherwise did you dial in your cams or just line up the three marks?

I didn't remove the cams, so I didn't have to reinstall the ring. Is there a chance it could come loose just from every day wear and tear?

A theory from Ed on ModularFords is that the cam on bank 1 is off (hence the 10psi lower pressure on that side) and is causing the code to trip. P0345 is a cam position sensor alert for bank 2, though.

 

[swflastang05]

I doubt it would come loose just from normal wear and tear, although anything is possible. You'll know when you pull the valve covers either way. Still curious if you degreed the cams in or just lined up the three marks?

 

[Flapjack]

I doubt it would come loose just from normal wear and tear, although anything is possible. You'll know when you pull the valve covers either way. Still curious if you degreed the cams in or just lined up the three marks?

I lined up the marks, which is how I've always done it. Unless I have it all wrong, there is no sense in "degreeing" the 3v cams, unless you have a non-OEM, adjustable cam gears. The only thing degreeing would tell you is if the cams were ground correctly. I know they are, as I made good compression and power with them before the shortblock was rebuilt.

 

[Bullitt6301]

I was swapping my Cams the other week and found that I had a tone ring on the phaser that had been spinning. The car was running fine but I could instantly notice a difference in how the car ran once I switched it out for a new phaser. I continue to be battling P0021 and p0011 codes that are random. Next is VCT solenoids.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[swflastang05]

I lined up the marks, which is how I've always done it. Unless I have it all wrong, there is no sense in "degreeing" the 3v cams, unless you have a non-OEM, adjustable cam gears. The only thing degreeing would tell you is if the cams were ground correctly. I know they are, as I made good compression and power with them before the shortblock was rebuilt.

What I'm getting at is when you degree them in you'll know 100% sure not only if they were ground correctly but more important to this issue is if both are ground the same, one can be off from the other not to mention machining tolerances, etc. You're absolutely right though without adjustable gears there's nothing you can do about it but at least you'll know.

 

[Flapjack]

I was swapping my Cams the other week and found that I had a tone ring on the phaser that had been spinning. The car was running fine but I could instantly notice a difference in how the car ran once I switched it out for a new phaser. I continue to be battling P0021 and p0011 codes that are random. Next is VCT solenoids.

Those are definitely VCT-related codes. You can actually datalog the VCT PIDs and see if they're "swinging". Just like fuel trims, they should sit as close to 0 as possible. If not, they're not getting enough oil pressure to stay where they need to. Could be anything from oil pressure to something wrong with the solenoids themselves. Since you're getting the code on both banks, I would look for a common denominator. It's probably not the solenoids...

What I'm getting at is when you degree them in you'll know 100% sure not only if they were ground correctly but more important to this issue is if both are ground the same, one can be off from the other not to mention machining tolerances, etc. You're absolutely right though without adjustable gears there's nothing you can do about it but at least you'll know.

Yeah, but keep in mind, I've had these cams for several years. If they are off (and I doubt it), it's never been enough to account for 10psi in compression between banks. I'm sure it's a tooth off on bank 1, still. Since I only removed the valve covers, I wasn't able to see all the timing marks. I put cylinder 1 at TDC and made sure the mark was lined up on the crank, but for the cams, I just looked at the angle of the cams from a picture I had of it properly timed.

 

[Flapjack]

Just got done farting around with the car some more. The timing was off by one tooth on the passenger side. It looks like the timing is perfect now (compression test confirms), however I'm still getting cam position sensor codes. This time though, I'm getting the codes on both sides. P0340 and P0345 (was just P0345 before).

I've gone over the wiring, but couldn't find squat. I haven't ruled that out completely, though. I'm going to replace the alternator first, even though it tested fine.

Another thing I found in a random F150 thread, which scares the shit out of me, is someone installed their crank trigger wheel backwards. I seriously doubt I installed mine backwards, but if everything else checks out, I guess I'll have to pull off the front cover.

 

[lito]

Chris, how are you checking your cam timing with the front cover on?

 

[Flapjack]

Chris, how are you checking your cam timing with the front cover on?

By using a level picture I took of the cam toners with the engine set at TDC. I've actually done it this way twice before, as my car loves to jump chains when it starts.

At any rate, the compression is where is should be now, but I'm still getting the codes. I'm reading just under 150psi per cylinder. That is the most I've ever seen at my elevation (7200ft) in any engine I've had.

Oh, and thanks Lito for chiming in. You always get me in the right direction.

I wasn't able to install the new alternator today. Tomorrow after work!

 

[01yellerCobra]

FWIW the last phaser issue I had was because those little rivets came apart. It had been in the engine for about 10k miles and went south in a few miles. The car isn't really beat on either. So it just randomly broke the rivets.

I know you don't have phasers, but I thought I'd mention it because I was getting the same code.

 

[Flapjack]

Thanks. I checked the cam toner rings, but they were fine. At this point, it would have to be both anyways, which would be highly unlikely.

 

[Flapjack]

Today, I tried a brand new alternator and reflashing the tune. No go. I also thoroughly went over the engine harness, and there isn't a single place that is even close to being pinched. I was able to put eyes on all the areas of the harness under the hood, and not a single wire or sheath was compromised. Unless a wire broke inside a bundle (which is unlikely). The only thing I have not checked yet are the three connectors to the PCM. I relocated it to the fender well when I installed the turbos years ago. I have not had a problem with it until the recent engine rebuild... but it's definitely something worth looking at.

On a related note, is there by chance a fuse (or fuses) that if blown could cause this issue?

 

[lito]

If it was electrical you should usually get a code. The typical fuse that handles most of the sensors assuming that the PCM has proper power is F47.

 

[Wild White Pony]

Had a similar problem much like yours, may or may not be related but is a component of that timing system. I believe the crank bolt backed off a bit from the tensioner bottoming out when you get off it at high rpm, caused the key way to open up.

Just something I'd check if you don't find anything else.