Outstanding Throttle Response write up...

mvon919

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Eveything is build within specific tolerances meaning some have the lag, some don't... this is something that CAN'T BE corrected in tune, since the brushes are still mechanical.

I have a slight dead movement and I'll take mine off tomorrow and see what I can do for it... I'd rather go with somekind of spacer to stop the pedal going into "dead zone"
 

Greg@RET

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If your ETC table is set up right, there should be no lag. I wouldnt feel comfortable messing with those tabs, but thats just me :oops:
 

mvon919

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If your ETC table is set up right, there should be no lag. I wouldnt feel comfortable messing with those tabs, but thats just me :oops:

If there's lag cause by this MECHANICAL ISSUE, it can't be fixed in tune. The movement of the brushes are MECHANICAL, resistance WILL NOT change when the brushes are in contact with carbon strip that has insulating GOLD strip under them. This mechanical fact (the mechanical movement of brushes when you press the pedal) causes ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE change and ECM will adjust TB, what is usually called Drive/Fly-by-Wire.

As ODB/ECM/CAN is allowing almost anyone to mess up with the powertrain, all this computer mambo-jambo needs MECHANICAL input.

This mod will not make the throttle more responsive, it just adjusts the brushes to be already in ZERO point actual THROTTLE TRAVEL.

I think this is a very good mod, but you might need to adjust the brishes few times to make it perfect!

:leghump:
 

MikeVistaBlue06

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Well I know I have it. I have mentioned the lag to the guys at HPP several times and asked them to tune it out and they have reduced it greatly. However if you are easy on the throttle, such as being caught in Dallas traffic, or not trying to do the 1/4 mile from every stop, it is still present, and this makes total sense to me as to why it can't be tuned out.

mvon919 is right on the money about this being a mechanical issue and not tune related.

Plus working in the semiconductor business for a living has taught me a hellvua lot about manufacturing variances and such.

With the millions of these manufactured, there will be some with wider gaps than others, that's just the way it is.

Now if Ford would make their suppliers use some of Ford's own damn 8D failure analysis scenarios and some "six-sigma" manufacturing practices when having parts made by these secondary suppliers, this might not be an issue!

In addition, if they would design in an adjustment knob so you could tweak this part, the problem would be gone as well, or at least you could tweak it out!

Not to toot Honda's horn, but my old lady's 2005 Accord has the fly by wire as does my 2007 Lincoln MKZ (a sister Ford product), and neither of them have this damn aggravating lag when you have to be easy on the go pedal!

Process variation. I know it well. Run to run or batch to batch it does exist. The good manufacturers recognize this and figure out the knobs to turn to make this variation undetectable in every day life.....

99% is a failing grade in such terms for process variation. It has to be more like 99.9999% perfect. Think about it. If the electric company was 99% perfect in supplying you electricity, then you'd not have power each day for about 15 minutes a day!

When the morning comes, I will have sockets in hand and Torx drivers at the ready to tear into this sumbitch!
 

LAK3RS

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Well I know I have it. I have mentioned the lag to the guys at HPP several times and asked them to tune it out and they have reduced it greatly. However if you are easy on the throttle, such as being caught in Dallas traffic, or not trying to do the 1/4 mile from every stop, it is still present, and this makes total sense to me as to why it can't be tuned out.

mvon919 is right on the money about this being a mechanical issue and not tune related.

Plus working in the semiconductor business for a living has taught me a hellvua lot about manufacturing variances and such.

With the millions of these manufactured, there will be some with wider gaps than others, that's just the way it is.

Now if Ford would make their suppliers use some of Ford's own damn 8D failure analysis scenarios and some "six-sigma" manufacturing practices when having parts made by these secondary suppliers, this might not be an issue!

In addition, if they would design in an adjustment knob so you could tweak this part, the problem would be gone as well, or at least you could tweak it out!

Not to toot Honda's horn, but my old lady's 2005 Accord has the fly by wire as does my 2007 Lincoln MKZ (a sister Ford product), and neither of them have this damn aggravating lag when you have to be easy on the go pedal!

Process variation. I know it well. Run to run or batch to batch it does exist. The good manufacturers recognize this and figure out the knobs to turn to make this variation undetectable in every day life.....

99% is a failing grade in such terms for process variation. It has to be more like 99.9999% perfect. Think about it. If the electric company was 99% perfect in supplying you electricity, then you'd not have power each day for about 15 minutes a day!

When the morning comes, I will have sockets in hand and Torx drivers at the ready to tear into this sumbitch!

Then you're gonna post on here so I can go screw up some more shit on my car! Hell, I went through everything over there and it seems pretty darn easy...I'm still with Roper on this one wanting to see some slips!

Let us know how it goes.
 

MikeVistaBlue06

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Will do. I think Roper is right about not seeing any drag racing benefit, because you are not going to drag starting from no throttle at all. You'll already have those brushes moved into the resistor zone because you'll be powerbraking it!

Now sitting at a red light having a little fun, this might help a bit.

Where I think this will ultimately help is in driveability, such as normal every day type driving.

Hell, if I nail my throttle now it will light up the back tires like a madman going to shit! It is those times when I just ease into the throttle that I notice the lag.

I'll let y'all know if I fix it or f-it up!

Mike
 

mvon919

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Well I know I have it. I have mentioned the lag to the guys at HPP several times and asked them to tune it out and they have reduced it greatly. However if you are easy on the throttle, such as being caught in Dallas traffic, or not trying to do the 1/4 mile from every stop, it is still present, and this makes total sense to me as to why it can't be tuned out.

mvon919 is right on the money about this being a mechanical issue and not tune related.

Plus working in the semiconductor business for a living has taught me a hellvua lot about manufacturing variances and such.

With the millions of these manufactured, there will be some with wider gaps than others, that's just the way it is.

Now if Ford would make their suppliers use some of Ford's own damn 8D failure analysis scenarios and some "six-sigma" manufacturing practices when having parts made by these secondary suppliers, this might not be an issue!

In addition, if they would design in an adjustment knob so you could tweak this part, the problem would be gone as well, or at least you could tweak it out!

Not to toot Honda's horn, but my old lady's 2005 Accord has the fly by wire as does my 2007 Lincoln MKZ (a sister Ford product), and neither of them have this damn aggravating lag when you have to be easy on the go pedal!

Process variation. I know it well. Run to run or batch to batch it does exist. The good manufacturers recognize this and figure out the knobs to turn to make this variation undetectable in every day life.....

99% is a failing grade in such terms for process variation. It has to be more like 99.9999% perfect. Think about it. If the electric company was 99% perfect in supplying you electricity, then you'd not have power each day for about 15 minutes a day!

When the morning comes, I will have sockets in hand and Torx drivers at the ready to tear into this sumbitch!

Yep. Tune can improve throttle response, but there's no tuner that can change mechanical functions through tune (even RET with ECT tables can't do this... ECT is used to control SW choke, ie. pedal pos. linearity to throttle position absolute... meaning idle responsiveness. It has absolutely nothing to do with this.)

Fuk it. Signing off. :thud:
 

Error404

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if he's doing what I think he's doing, it's not removing lag, it's just removing the 'dead space', once you are in contact with that first contact patch, the pedal should feel the same. Unless there is more to it than this.

I miss cable throttles, deadspace/play was easy to adjust :D
 

Greg@RET

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I was reading it as making it more responsive, not taking up dead space. If its for taking up dead space then I read it wrong. I guess thats what a 13 hr workday will do to you... :sleep:
 

stlwagon

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I like the idea but the 300 posts we're painful. I went ahead and ordered a spare. I'll crack mine open and at least take a look.
 

ixtlan

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Ok everyone that has the dead spot.
Question is have you done the recalibration procedure yet?
And what was the effect?

Just FYI
Recalibration Procedure for Throttle:
Turn Key ON.
Wait for dash lights to go out.
Press throttle fully to floor quickly and release quickly.
Turn key OFF.


Then start vehicle and check for your dead spot.
Did it go away?

I have yet to see one response to the question.
Ford engineers may have already built in the correction.
 

94tbird

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Ok everyone that has the dead spot.
Question is have you done the recalibration procedure yet?
And what was the effect?

Just FYI
Recalibration Procedure for Throttle:
Turn Key ON.
Wait for dash lights to go out.
Press throttle fully to floor quickly and release quickly.
Turn key OFF.


Then start vehicle and check for your dead spot.
Did it go away?

I have yet to see one response to the question.
Ford engineers may have already built in the correction.

tried it. been there, done it. did nothing for me
 

MikeVistaBlue06

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A Simpler Mod to Achieve the Same Results!

Guys,

I have found a much simpler, and cheaper way to do this without cracking the part opening and messing with those brushes.

All you need to do is "shim" or put a throttle stop in place. It worked as well. Now the tach will jump with just the slightest pressure applied to the throttle!

After removing the part and looking at it, here is what I did:

1. This pix shows the actual throttle control itself

pix1_throttle_control.jpg


2. This pix shows the TC with the area where the gas pedal lever makes contact and stops.

pix2_throttle_control.jpg


3. This pix shows the TC with a part throttle condition

pix3_throttle_control.jpg


4. This pix shows the TC with a WOT condition:

pix4_throttle_control.jpg


5. This pix shows good old 3M Scotch double sided sticky tape (wide type).

pix5_throttle_control.jpg


6. This pix shows the "meat." Here I have inserted the double sided sticky tape such that the sticky side is to the left, and the protected sticky side is to the right. I then used a razor knife to cut the tape flush. The protective sticky side's protection paper is still in place so it does not stick to the gas pedal lever as it moves!

pix6_throttle_control.jpg


7. This pix shows the "shim" or throttle stop in place after I did the flush cut.

pix7_throttle_control.jpg


8. Finally, this pix shows a partly open throttle condition, with the new "shim" or throttle stop in place!

pix8_throttle_control.jpg


It does work! Also, not to take away from "tube's" findings as he inspired this idea, but this method is non-invasive and seems to work just as well. This is sort of like taking a pill to fix a medical problem, rather than resorting to surgery! :clap:

Hope this helps.

Mike
 

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94tbird

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can you explain what you did in words?

i see what you did i think. you just took a piece of mounting tape and cut a piece to fit behind the pedal to :space" it away from its normal resting position.

the only problem i see is doesn't that tape compress a bit? wouldn't after some time, it be flat and useless, needing to put a new piece on there?

even if thats the case, this is a lot easier for guys and a lot less dangerous then messing with the internals of the pedal assembly.

did it increase the idle at all? how does the driveability feel?
 
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Rygen

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That mod has been on most of the boards. In all honesty, I can see it helping from an idle launch, but for those of us that launch at a certain RPM, it will not help our ET's doing this mod IMO.

The procedure to reset the throttle response...


Recalibration Procedure for Throttle:
Turn Key ON.
Wait for dash lights to go out.
Press throttle fully to floor quickly and release quickly.
Turn key OFF.

...when it does work is only temporary as the computer relearns and puts the delay back in. But this is a mod mainly for stock vehicles.

Very interesting write up though. I think its more geared to near stock cars. Also, there is already one report of someone screwing up the mod and throwing cel's.
 
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MikeVistaBlue06

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can you explain what you did in words?

i see what you did i think. you just took a piece of mounting tape and cut a piece to fit behind the pedal to :space" it away from its normal resting position.

the only problem i see is doesn't that tape compress a bit? wouldn't after some time, it be flat and useless, needing to put a new piece on there?

even if thats the case, this is a lot easier for guys and a lot less dangerous then messing with the internals of the pedal assembly.

did it increase the idle at all? how does the driveability feel?

See my updated post. I was trying to get the images to pop up that is why it first appeared with no info.

The tape does compress a bit, but that space you need to fill is pretty small, and that double sided tape typically will not come loose!

It did not change the idle speed. I haven't drove it yet.

Mike
 
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MikeVistaBlue06

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The procedure to reset the throttle response, when it does work is only temporary as the computer relearns and puts the delay back in.

I am not sure that will be the case, since you actually move the brushes out onto the actual resistor itself and away from the gold contact pad. Instead of it seeing the same resistance for a moment as the pedal changes position, it will see an instaneous change in resistance now and the computer should react to that by opening the throttle blades up in sync.

Thx,

Mike
 

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