Piston rings - what are you using and why?

Like the title says.
I will be rebuilding my 4.6 soon. The point of the rebuild is to make more power. I talked to Lito and he thinks for my goal of 550 hp (or somewhere close), I might need to be as high as 14 pounds of boost. The car has a Roush supercharger and is drag raced and street driven. I will likely be using Manley pistons. They offer 3 ring packages that I know of. I am considering one of two. The difference is steel top ring or Plasma Moly top ring. Manley says I need the steel at 15 lbs of boost. I am thinking I need the steel ring package due to the abuse.
What ring material are you using and why?
If it is steel, do they wear the bore any faster?
If it is moly, do they hold up to the abuse?
Thanks in advance.

I've never dealt with this first hand, but in the event of minor detonation, the moly coating can start to flake off of the plasma/moly rings.

You should make some phone calls to companies like MV Performance, JDM Engineering, and L&M. They've always been helpful to me and answered any of my engine building questions.

TBP

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

I used Gibtec Pistons and went with the Total Seal ring package they recommended. Being a custom piston manufacturer they know what they are talking about.
You should also check out a thread over on the Modular Fords Forums titled "Gibtec Aluminator Build" it has everything you could want to know and more.

408Stang said:

I used Gibtec Pistons and went with the Total Seal ring package they recommended. Being a custom piston manufacturer they know what they are talking about.
You should also check out a thread over on the Modular Fords Forums titled "Gibtec Aluminator Build" it has everything you could want to know and more.

Click to expand...

Hummm, Did you say GIBTEC ..

The Total Seal AP Steel conventional file fit rings are pretty much what all the custom piston makers supply with their kits. The rings Manley uses are made by Total Seal as well, retail price for the AP steel rings is $240.

I used those TS AP steel rings with Diamond pistons in my 1st build and after 55,000 miles @600rwhp and several bottles of nitrous on top of that, the cylinder bores still looked very good with minimal scuffing.


.

Thanks everyone.

drive_55_not said:

...
The Total Seal AP Steel conventional file fit rings are pretty much what all the custom piston makers supply with their kits. The rings Manley uses are made by Total Seal as well, retail price for the AP steel rings is $240.

I used those TS AP steel rings with Diamond pistons in my 1st build and after 55,000 miles @600rwhp and several bottles of nitrous on top of that, the cylinder bores still looked very good with minimal scuffing.


.

Click to expand...

Good info on wear. That is for what I was looking.

408Stang said:

...
You should also check out a thread over on the Modular Fords Forums titled "Gibtec Aluminator Build" it has everything you could want to know and more.

Click to expand...

I have never heard of Gibtec. Their website is a little vague but I will cal them. What makes them any better than Manley?
I could not find that thread. I hate that forum. It is slow. If I can bother you, can you link that thread?

TheBlackPearl said:

I've never dealt with this first hand, but in the event of minor detonation, the moly coating can start to flake off of the plasma/moly rings...

Click to expand...

A point I forgot. I have heard that. Thanks for the reminder.

You need to talk to Nick at Gibtec when you call.

What makes Gibtec the best is that it is a 100% custom billet piston. You can get it made in any size, any shape, any ring package, any skirt shape, etc... Again... 100% custom.

And at a very reasonable price. I paid about $1300 including .200 wall wrist pins, Total Seal rings with support rails, and moly coating on the piston skirts. My pistons also included offset pins, a custom diameter to get the perfect piston to wall clearance for my honed block, and a custom ring pack gap with an anti-flutter groove.

Basically... Don't settle for some other company who only sells off the shelf .10, .20, or .30 over pistons. Gibtec will make any diameter piston for you in .001 increments. They can also move your ring package up or down, change ring land widths, etc. And they can shape the piston dome / dish to get any compression level you desire.

Again... Custom... Talk to Nick.

429244 said:

Thanks everyone.



Good info on wear. That is for what I was looking.



I have never heard of Gibtec. Their website is a little vague but I will cal them. What makes them any better than Manley?
I could not find that thread. I hate that forum. It is slow. If I can bother you, can you link that thread?



A point I forgot. I have heard that. Thanks for the reminder.

Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with Manley pistons, they're forged where GIBTEC pistons are cut from a block of billet aluminum so they can be made any way you want em'.

I started to go with Manley's big bore 14cc dish piston as they were readily available but went GIBTEC with a 9cc dish, a thicker crown [,300"] and skirts to better handle larger shots of nawz I'm planning on shooting.

Plus my GIBTEC pistons are lighter than the Manley's.

Re-reading your OP 14lbs of boost with a decent set of cams, the TVS should net you 575rwhp.

I made 640rwhp with 19lbs.

.

I just use the Mahle PowerPak set-up, and I have had AWESOME luck with them.

They have the Plasma Moly - and it has been a workhorse. 21+psi and making well over 900whp with a TVS. (a lot of heat)

OK. I will call gibtec. To the point about Mahle pistons, I will ask here the same question I will ask gibtec. Why do I need custom pistons if an off the shelf model meets my requirements? So they can make a piston to fit the bore. Won't my machine be able to bore the cylinder to fit my off the shelf pistons?
Thanks for all of the responses.

429244 said:

OK. I will call gibtec. To the point about Mahle pistons, I will ask here the same question I will ask gibtec. Why do I need custom pistons if an off the shelf model meets my requirements? So they can make a piston to fit the bore. Won't my machine be able to bore the cylinder to fit my off the shelf pistons?
Thanks for all of the responses.

Click to expand...

When you replace pistons you don't necessarily need to hone the cylinder 0.010. You might only need 0.005. When you jump up in over bore sizes you cut down the number of times you can reuse your block.

That being said, I know Diamond offers custom diameters (as well as many other custom options) to their shelf style pistons for an additional cost. Don't quote me but I think it's about $100 for each change you choose.

TBP

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

On this engine I am running the Sealed Power Hellfire Rings. I have been very happy with them.

Why would you take more material out of your block than you have to? Just because Mahle (and every other company) only makes them in .010 over increments? What if you only need a hone? Why not take as little material as possible out of your block and then custom fit the pistons to the block with exactly the piston to wall clearances you want. Not to mention the ability to have any combination of options you want.... Like an anti-flutter grove, offset pins, skirt coatings, any compression ratio, any type of ring packages, etc.... That's the benefit of custom.

I'd love mahle pistons but they only seem to make them with a 16cc dish these days, for the 3V.

As far as worrying about going .020 over on an old 4.6 block, how long are we going to live on this earth, anyway? I'm going overbore and if I ever wear out the engine I'll consider myself extremely lucky. In 20 years non self driving cars will probably be banned, and I'll be on guaranteed income anyway.

Boring a modular block doesn't just effect your ability to reuse it again... Remember these are sleeved blocks, the sleeves aren't that thick to begin with and taking material out doesn't help anything. Not to mention throwing boost at it. For me it's not a question of being able to reuse the block someday, but whether it will live through the abuse of boost. For that reason I chose a nearly new block and as little hone as possible.

Without a bunch of options, the Gibtec Pistons can be had for about $1000. (shipped, and with Total Seal rings and new wrist pins) That's quite a bargain for what you are getting.

408Stang said:

Without a bunch of options, the Gibtec Pistons can be had for about $1000. (shipped, and with Total Seal rings and new wrist pins) That's quite a bargain for what you are getting.

Click to expand...

That's not bad really. My diamonds were $1200 or $1300. I still remember the wife's face when she saw the credit card statement.

Ha, easier to ask for forgiveness works sometimes.

eighty6gt said:

I'd love mahle pistons but they only seem to make them with a 16cc dish these days, for the 3V.

As far as worrying about going .020 over on an old 4.6 block, how long are we going to live on this earth, anyway? I'm going overbore and if I ever wear out the engine I'll consider myself extremely lucky. In 20 years non self driving cars will probably be banned, and I'll be on guaranteed income anyway.

Click to expand...

I am considering these pistons (if I say with stock compression and off the shelf parts) listed by Mod Max http://www.modmaxracing.com/product-p/man594300c-8.htm . They have 6.5 cc dish. Is it your experience that these are no longer made?

Thanks for the help everyone. I will keep you all posted after my call to gibtec.

I've always used moly. Max boost has been 19psi. I choose moly for break in and bore wear reasons.

Do your research and make your decision. IMO there isn't always a clear cut choice on things like rings. I based my decision to use moly on the experiences of others who were experts. The thing I was told about stainless was to know that I'd need to tear the motor down after 30,000 miles because the cross hatch would be worn out by then. I believed what I was told. This came from someone who ran stainless rings in a high 8 second Procharged Fox body and tore his motor down every winter. He also told me that break in with stainless required more attention. He had to tear down a motor that just wouldn't seal in because he didn't think it would be that different.

I was also told that unless I was using the motor for race purposes only that the moly rings would hold up to bursts of high psi.

I'm not familiar with Gibtec pistons, but being an engineer at Mahle there are reasons behind the product they ultimately released to be sold in aftermarket applications. Mahle is major OEM supplier ( esp. for high horsepower applications ) and spend insane development hours ensuring a piston for a particular application functions properly. To make sure things like pin bore offset, ring pack dimensions, and piston form work inside their design window while having nice manners (poor oil consumption, secondary noise, etc.) and not just a sludge to rattle around in a cylinder wall. There are no "can i tweak this a little, or change that" without them investigating the potential effects. Mahle knows their stuff, and in most street applications I wouldn't hesitate to use them. Check out 5.9 ISB Monotherm pistons by Mahle if you want to see what they are capable of in piston design.