1Free197's build/question thread

[1Free197]

When I first bought my 2006 yellow mustang I had a lot of things I wanted to do. A few track days and a couple auto-crosses in local SCCA events quickly showed me a blaring and evident situation that needed addressed.

This was the car back in 09 when I bought her.

The stock suspension was really leaving much to be desired in the tight twisty roads I LOVE and ENJOY here in New Mexico(wouldn't think it but there are some GORGEOUS roads). I love tearing up the mountain and canyon roads just as much as the track... so I was left with some serious things to debate. First was a solid suspension setup.

After browsing youtube, this FANTASTIC forum, and multiple websites, I decided I would stick with strut/shocks and springs for now. If I didn't like the combo I was planning on going with I would just bite the bullet and get a good set of coilovers and be done with it.

My biggest issue was dual purpose... I wanted a toy at the track but it needed to be liveable on the streets. It isn't my only car so I don't have to daily it, but I still enjoy driving it on the roads. So adjustable struts and shocks were a must. After browsing multiple websites I found what I wanted in the for sale threads here and picked up a set of Tokico 7 way adjustable shocks/struts. I was a bit worried that I wouldn't like them but I had some money put away for a full coilover set so my mind was at ease at least. I then picked up a set of Eibach performance lowering springs. They offered a small drop, and seeing as I can't SLAM and WON'T slam it, it seemed like a logical choice.

some MM Caster Camber plates topped it off. I also decided stiffening up the rear and a solid set of sway bars would definitely help it in the corners.

A few other goodies from whiteline and it the rear end was getting the attention it deserved!

And I put the wheels back on her and took her to a shop for a performance alignment.

After that I took her for a NICE LONG drive through some canyon roads. I am SUPREMELY impressed at the difference. There is no noise coming from the suspension, it's quiet... and most importantly it is BEYOND flat in the corners. You load the suspension and there is no evident body roll.

I had a few friends take her for a spin and they were left in awe at just how confidence boosting it was in tight corners at speed.

I have some things I have left to do... but first I need to take her to a track day and put her through her paces. I am looking at a good brake upgrade but I want to see what I want after this next track day.

Opinions and suggestions are EXTREMELY welcome. I would love additional input and ideas for stuff to do. Please remember.. it is going to be fun GT car but also my toy for track days... so it has to be liveable from day to day.

 

[CobraRed]

Awesome! Looks like you're well on your way. These cars feel like mashed potatoes stock, so improvements go along way on the seat of the pants scale.

I would point to sticky tires and aggressive brake pads as you next mods, but agreed that track time will be your best next step.

Not criticizing, but any idea behind why you went with an aftermarket rear sway? It's a commonly held feeling these cars need a lot of help in that arena up front compared to back. Was it for auto-x turn-in rotation?

 

[1Free197]

Awesome! Looks like you're well on your way. These cars feel like mashed potatoes stock, so improvements go along way on the seat of the pants scale.

I would point to sticky tires and aggressive brake pads as you next mods, but agreed that track time will be your best next step.

Not criticizing, but any idea behind why you went with an aftermarket rear sway? It's a commonly held feeling these cars need a lot of help in that arena up front compared to back. Was it for auto-x turn-in rotation?

The main reason for the aftermarket rear sway was to replace the stock component and really fiddle with fine tuning it(keeping it or going for something else). I might be changing it as time goes on depending on how the turn in's go at a few local SCCA events.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Since you've already swapped springs, it's obvious that autocrossing in SCCA's F-street class was never a concern. So now that you have an adjustable rear bar you will probably want an adjustable front bar (SCCA's FS lets you change only one bar).

Wheels - don't bother even looking at anything less than 10" wide, and unless you're going to try to fit 15" brakes - stick with 18's that will clear the 14" Brembos (earlier GT500). Not all 18" wheels clear, so you might as well plan ahead for the possibility . . .

Tires - there's lots better stuff available that wants to fit on 18x10, 18x10.5, or 18x11 than is even available for what in your pictures looks like 17x8's.

Brakes - pads and fluid first, then maybe lines. You could step up to the 14" GT500 arrangement, but for a stockish 4.6L car even the 12.4" brakes seem to be up to intermediate-level HPDE sessions (plug for Carbotech XP10's or possibly a XP12/XP10 combination, and Motul RBF600 fluid). My take at the moment is if you were to find that XP10's were starting to give up toward the end of a session . . . that would be your clue to upgrade at least the front rotors to 14".

Your car is pretty early, so you might want to make sure that it has the lower tie bar running between the rear pickups for the front LCAs. If it has an OE tie bar, that'll be good enough, but if there isn't anything there you can probably find something on the aftermarket (my '08 came with one, so I've never had to look).


Beyond that are things like rear LCAs - you might as well swap in something with sphericals on one end if the OE rubber bushings have started showing much in the way of cracking (don't be surprised if you end up modding any poly ends). UCA (ditto and this piece can be even fussier about its pivot bushing/bearing arrangement), and front LCA bushings. Note that sphericals don't have to be rod ends; there are at least 2 or 3 LCAs that aren't metal-on-metal if that matters. Although relo brackets are typically more of a drag racing mod, they might offer some advantages here (with conservative/mild settings).


Norm

 

[GoinDrivin]

Norm, as always, gives great advice. Keep us posted on your build/upgrade. Since purchasing my '05 GT, my plan was to build a track day toy yet keep it street legal for the occasional daily drive. My thought was to build the car semi-following the NASA Spec Iron rules. With that being said, for brakes you can go to the 14" Brembos, pads, and fluid. Wheels I was looking at the 18x9.5 SVT wheels. What I've learned is if you're not building for a specific class, build it as you want. Sounds like you want a handling beast, so go for it. Follow what Norm said in regards to the suspension and enjoy! The modding NEVER ends.

 

[Sky Render]

Norm, I cooked the stock 2011+ GT brakes just doing autocrosses, and I'm slow...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk

 

[1Free197]

Since you've already swapped springs, it's obvious that autocrossing in SCCA's F-street class was never a concern. So now that you have an adjustable rear bar you will probably want an adjustable front bar (SCCA's FS lets you change only one bar).

Wheels - don't bother even looking at anything less than 10" wide, and unless you're going to try to fit 15" brakes - stick with 18's that will clear the 14" Brembos (earlier GT500). Not all 18" wheels clear, so you might as well plan ahead for the possibility . . .

Tires - there's lots better stuff available that wants to fit on 18x10, 18x10.5, or 18x11 than is even available for what in your pictures looks like 17x8's.

Brakes - pads and fluid first, then maybe lines. You could step up to the 14" GT500 arrangement, but for a stockish 4.6L car even the 12.4" brakes seem to be up to intermediate-level HPDE sessions (plug for Carbotech XP10's or possibly a XP12/XP10 combination, and Motul RBF600 fluid). My take at the moment is if you were to find that XP10's were starting to give up toward the end of a session . . . that would be your clue to upgrade at least the front rotors to 14".

Your car is pretty early, so you might want to make sure that it has the lower tie bar running between the rear pickups for the front LCAs. If it has an OE tie bar, that'll be good enough, but if there isn't anything there you can probably find something on the aftermarket (my '08 came with one, so I've never had to look).


Beyond that are things like rear LCAs - you might as well swap in something with sphericals on one end if the OE rubber bushings have started showing much in the way of cracking (don't be surprised if you end up modding any poly ends). UCA (ditto and this piece can be even fussier about its pivot bushing/bearing arrangement), and front LCA bushings. Note that sphericals don't have to be rod ends; there are at least 2 or 3 LCAs that aren't metal-on-metal if that matters. Although relo brackets are typically more of a drag racing mod, they might offer some advantages here (with conservative/mild settings).


Norm

Thank you SO much norm for the tips.

1st off class racing for me hasn't usually been an issue. My first taste in autocross was a dodge neon that I had turbo charged and stuff so I was running in the street modified class. I realistically had no chance in my class but I loved driving it. Personally I had more fun going and driving and pushing myself than actually caring about the position in the class. That really set my opinions of driving autocross... push the car for the fastest and cleanest runs and have fun!

my current wheels and tires are my street setup running 18x9's in front and 18x10's in the back. I was looking for a great 18x10 all around wheel combo for track days. I am running NT555's and I really love how they are driving. any suggestions on meat is definitely welcome! I might just grab some more NT555's to run until I find something better.

The lca's have been in my sights but I am mainly fixed on the brakes right now. I have some decent hawk pads on all 4 corners so we will see how she drives.

Thank you again for the help!!

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, I cooked the stock 2011+ GT brakes just doing autocrosses, and I'm slow...

Stock pads I might be able to understand . . . if the autocrosses in question were both unusually fast and extremely demanding on the brakes. More like what SCCA used to call Solo 1, perhaps?

If I had a hundred and some more HP on tap, HUGE R-comps instead of sort-of-big street tires, and enough track days under my belt to be trying my hand at TT, I'm sure I'd be on bigger brakes with more serious pads. But I think that OP's car and experience is closer to mine than to somebody like Terry and that incredible red car.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Thank you SO much norm for the tips.

1st off class racing for me hasn't usually been an issue. My first taste in autocross was a dodge neon that I had turbo charged and stuff so I was running in the street modified class. I realistically had no chance in my class but I loved driving it. Personally I had more fun going and driving and pushing myself than actually caring about the position in the class. That really set my opinions of driving autocross... push the car for the fastest and cleanest runs and have fun!

my current wheels and tires are my street setup running 18x9's in front and 18x10's in the back. I was looking for a great 18x10 all around wheel combo for track days. I am running NT555's and I really love how they are driving. any suggestions on meat is definitely welcome! I might just grab some more NT555's to run until I find something better.

The lca's have been in my sights but I am mainly fixed on the brakes right now. I have some decent hawk pads on all 4 corners so we will see how she drives.

Thank you again for the help!!

No problem.

Arguably the go-to wheels here are the Forgestars, either F14's or CF5's. In 18x10 for a no-brainer fit and the same offset for all four, or 18x11 if you're willing to work with tight clearances, risk having to do a little work, and don't mind having different offsets front vs rear. At least two of us "regulars" here have (or at least had) a set of the 11's. Call Vorshlag.


Norm

 

[csamsh]

semi-following the NASA Spec Iron rules. ....... Wheels I was looking at the 18x9.5 SVT wheels.

How do you "semi" build to a spec class???? Don't take that comment seriously...just giving you shit.

The 18x9.5's look cool but there are cheaper, lighter, wider options out there.

I basically second everything Norm said.

18x10's are great and rotatable. I would of course prefer some Master Race 18x11's.

Now....about those NT555's....Just say no to Nitto. I know they're super popular, but there are so many better options out there that are slightly less internet-famous and car show prevalent.

There are a lot of people who frequent this section who have run the 200TW catalog....if you want some opinions on a good street/track/autox tire, ask away.

Some unsolicited tire choice advice-

If the car is a DD, sees rain, and you need some mileage- Michelin Pilot Super Sport

If the car gets its wheels and tires changed to go to the track or an autocross event (the better option)- Hankook RS3V2, Bridgestone RE11

If you really need to win your street tire class- Bridgestone RE71R, BFG Rival S

 

[CobraRed]

Now....about those NT555's....Just say no to Nitto.

Hahahah


And I used to work at Nitto corporate here

 

[GoinDrivin]

How do you "semi" build to a spec class???? Don't take that comment seriously...just giving you shit.

Well smart azz... Years ago I had a '90 Mazda RX-7 that I built into an SCCA ITS car. So when I bought this in my head I thought why not follow the Spec Iron rules and purchase parts based on the class spec. Then reality hit and I knew I wasn't going to turn this into a dedicated race car. I joined this forum and realized that while a fully built Spec Iron car is a great track car, there is a huge variety of parts available and the knowledge here to just have fun and build the car as I want. No rules...just right. I would like to end up building a car to autocross, track days, and hill climbs. I'm still learning and having fun on the forum.

 

[1Free197]

So I just went to the track today and the car performed SUPERBLY.

I think the biggest issue right now is the driver mod. I have been out of the scene so long I need to work myself back in. However, some new fluid and pads are definitely in order. Best time was a 1.46.16 on at the course and I could shave a few more seconds honing in the lines. I am hoping to see an improvement at the next track day. I am going to be buying an extra set of wheels and tires here in the near future to put some sticky compounds on. I will keep you all posted.

What size wheels is everyone running? I am running 18x9/10 right now and it felt really good in the corners.

 

[csamsh]

What size wheels is everyone running? I am running 18x9/10 right now and it felt really good in the corners.

18x10 square, or 18x10.5 square with sometimes questionable rear fitment, or 18x11 where the fronts have different offsets but the rears do fit if they're spec'ed right.

Square fitment is the way to go...anything to mitigate understeer.

 

[1Free197]

18x10 square, or 18x10.5 square with sometimes questionable rear fitment, or 18x11 where the fronts have different offsets but the rears do fit if they're spec'ed right.

Square fitment is the way to go...anything to mitigate understeer.

any fitment issues with the 18x10's in the front?

 

[csamsh]

any fitment issues with the 18x10's in the front?

Nope....18x11's will work too.

 

[claudermilk]

Second that. Vorshlag is the go-to for square 18x11. I have 18x10 AMRs and they work fine (a little rub at full lock--not an issue on track).

 

[SlowJim]

+1 on the AMR's. a 5mm hubcentric spacer took care of the rubbing for me

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Great advice in here already, from the usual suspects. Again, cannot emphasize how important tire and wheel width is on these heavy cars...

The 18x11" wheel we have made by Forgestar is the widest you can fit under the stock fenders. There are a few tricks we use to tuck the tires under the fenders, too. The more serious racers are even going to 315mm tires at all four corners.

Don't take this image as a testament to the tire brand: I'm not a fan of Nitto or Toyo tires

But an 18x10" wheel is a lot easier, especially when you buy ones with the correct offset (spacers shouldn't be needed).

Your next move might be better shocks and spring rates. Oh, by the way - the "7 way" Tokicos are really just "1 way" adjustables (aka: single adjustables or rebound-only adjustables). The number of valving adjustments (1, 2, 3 or in rare circumstances 4) is what we're calling attention to, not the number of clicks. Its a common misconception that is especially propagated in Chinese shocks. #themoreyouknow

Anyway, where was I.... Oh, shocks. There are a lot of choices out there, and it really depends on how serious you want to get and how much lean/dive you want to eliminate. Spring rates for all lowering springs are fairly low (0-100% stiffer than stock up front) but we tend to go +300-500% stiffer than stock with real coilover springs. And when you firm up the springs like this, you end up on coilover shocks, and hopefully good ones.

BEFORE: Koni Monotubes, stock springs, 295/315 BFG Rival street tires

AFTER: MCS TT2s, Coilover spring upgrade, 295/315 Hoosier A6 R-compound tires

I talk a bit about spring rates and how important they are in my most recent build thread update on Mark's C5 (which is located on 3 forums). The images above aren't a Mustang, of course, but the change in spring rate was about as dramatic. This 2002 Corvette was a sloppy, floppy mess on big street tires at the top image. Then it was much more settled down in the lower image, with Hoosier A6 tires, after the front was beefed up with 3x the spring rate and monotube MCS double adjustables. That's the same type of change we see in the Mustang, if not more...

There are all SORTS of bolt-on doo-dads that you can choose from, but the beneficial ones are: Rear Lower Control Arm relocation brackets (LCA brackets), Watts Links, better anti-swaybars, and adjustable rear LCAs. There are significant differences in brands and there are lots and LOTS of bolt-on trinkets you can buy that do nothing.

Anyway, keep reading here and you will learn a lot.

 

[1Free197]

Anyway, keep reading here and you will learn a lot.

Oh I do intend to. I am beyond blown away at the massive amount of support on here.

I am wanting a good 18x10(18x11 seems too extreme right now) set of dedicated track wheels with sticky compounds. I have a good clean daily set I am not wanting to absolutely destroy at the track... so finish and appearance is not too important. Weight, width and most importantly PRICE is my key issue right now.

I have 2 grand sitting in the bank I am TRYING to save for a supercharger. HOWEVER, I am also leaning on coil overs OR wheels and tires... but that will practically blow everything I have saved for. Any good options and pricing? I am constantly checking here for some deals on a wheel combination I can get for an OK price and do the tires separately locally.

Just seeing what I can get back

Thanks again, ALL of you!