Compound turbos

JeremyH

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He is the link for the exact turbo .81 AR, rated at 1800HP. Dual ball bearing.

https://www.amsperformance.com/cart/gtx5533r-turbocharger.html/


You aren't going to get anywhere with a .81ar on a turbo that big on these motors. The turbine housing itself regardless of wheel size wont support the flow needed. You would max that turbo around 800-900hp tops.


I'm bored and its the mid watch so here goes my complete thoughts on the matter. lol


Still haven't seen you post the motor combo or specs. While this is all fun to think about, that is what you will need to build the setup to fit. The capability of the motor and ve will not support the pressure ratio of 30-40psi regardless of fuel. This isn't a 4-6 cylinder that revs to 8,10 or 12k rpms. Or a diesel motor that revs to 3-4k rpms.

Flat out I would not try to compound a gasoline mod motor v8 you won’t get this setup into a high enough pressure ratio with load to work anywhere decent and be tune-able or drive-able or get the amazing results you want.

To throw some data at you these kind of setups (spool valves, vgt, compoung, sequential etc) typical will see around 25% faster acceleration time when done perfect (ie the single turbo or multiple turbos are sized perfectly) for the motor ve and achievable pressure ratio).

It takes about 2-3 seconds to spin a turbine and compressor shaft from 1000rpm to 100k rpm on a v8 to around 10psi. Lets say the turbo or first turbo in question is well matched so 2 seconds, now lets implement a way to increase acceleration time by 25% be it which ever method we are discussing. So 1.5 seconds to 10psi vice 2 seconds. Lets punch the throttle around 2500 rpms where there's lots of initial load and boom we hit 10psi at 3500rpm. So in 2 seconds and 1000 rpm we "spooled" and hit are target 10psi. That's a 100rpm every .2 seconds. Now lets say you made the turbo smaller to increase acceleration time and it now only takes 1.5 seconds. A .5 difference in time would only amount to 200-250rpm difference in "spool" time to target boost level.

Now that we did all this work for that huge gain. Let's hope the larger turbine wheel and ar size is good enough to take over where the little one leaves off and it doesn't start to stall due to being at too low of an rpm to grab air, while simultaneous creating reversion and sending air back to the smaller turbo and putting it into surge and making it a nightmare to drive and tune. Was it worth it? That's for you to deicide. But don't think its going to be some huge difference on our specific application.

On our motors that operate up to the 6-7rpm range at most if you somehow sized the setup perfect and it works right you might get into boost 200? 300? maybe 500rpm quicker? You will see down low torque gains and feel it but its not going to be some magic physics defying thing that somehow you were successful in achieving.

A plain parallel would be ideal for this high power level or a bi turbo sequential setup on each bank to try and create this concept of a smaller turbo on one bank and a larger turbo on the other bank could be done and would be a lot easier to do and get right and be tunable.

You can’t just slap on a giant turbo for the larger one it still needs to be properly sized for the max pressure ratio goal for what the motor can handle ve and flow wise. Or its going to do all kinds of weird shit when you switch over. There is such a thing as too large if you run a 2000hp capable turbo at 1200hp is going to be out of its compressor map efficiency range and it can stall/surge and create more heat and generate less power then when it’s at is most efficient island on the map for the pressure ratio. Pressure ratio is used to plot on a compressor map by way, it takes into account engine size, ve, rpm, flow and boost level essentially. You can measure this as you watch power output as you change boost level. A 1000hp 30psi capbale turbo on YOUR MOTOR may only see 15-20hp per psi in the 6-10psi and 25-30psi ranges. But may make 35-40hp per psi in the 15-20psi range for example. There is a sweet spot when its at its most efficient spot on the compressor map where your getting optimal flow at the shaft rpm and pressure and its creating very little heat. This is your goal when sizing the turbo. A power rating is extremely subjective as the turbine and compressor operate in tandem with the motor. A turbo that can make 1800hp at 40psi on a 2.5liter 4 cylinder. May only be capable of 1000hp and 30psi on a 5 liter v8. Like mentioned you have to take into account flow and the engine not just pressure. So again your motor setup needs to be known first.

For a real world example a billet 6765 is rated to around 35psi at 1000hp but what setup is that on? I will tell you it can only do about 700-750hp and 18-20psi on a 4.6 v8 with a 3v head that revs to 7k rpms. Stop looking at supra and 240's and diesels or anything. Look at what v8 mod motors have done specifically look at setups that have similar engine builds as you and then you can make some actual progress towards something with your setup.
 
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Heaten m90

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There are no off the shelf engine parts that would support the power this would output. Billet crank, filled block, custom rods and pistons and a shop that has built engines for this level. $50 to $70 grand if not more.

This is all being done as we speak, excluding a billet crank. I spoke with manley on the phone, and when i asked how much power it should hold they told me "everything you can throw at it"

I still haven't decided or talked to anyone about if the block will be oring'd with a copper gasket or not.

Ive been referred to an ex-design team member from Oliver. He's doing his own thing now. I might run his combo, if not maybe MMR or stick with the manley/diamond combo.

Keep in mind turbo setups are a little more forgiving on rotating assemblys then massive blowers at the same power level.

the block is being reinforced. Im also going to go the gforce route with the tremic. I waiting to hear back from liberty gears about the crash box. But they will be cryo treating everything. Im not sure the HP rating of my current aluminium DS..... but im sure ill find out. Out back ill have a carbon rebuilt 8.8 with shafts and i got a bunch of gear combos 308 327 355 373 410.

I was planning on a coyote swap in ol'ladys jeep, but after pulling the motor we discovered the frame was beyond shot. So we bought her one of those new turbo focus's as a project, being that i financed her new car we have a little more cash for my project.
 

JeremyH

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This is all being done as we speak, excluding a billet crank. I spoke with manley on the phone, and when i asked how much power it should hold they told me "everything you can throw at it"

I still haven't decided or talked to anyone about if the block will be oring'd with a copper gasket or not.

Ive been referred to an ex-design team member from Oliver. He's doing his own thing now. I might run his combo, if not maybe MMR or stick with the manley/diamond combo.

Keep in mind turbo setups are a little more forgiving on rotating assemblys then massive blowers at the same power level.

the block is being reinforced. Im also going to go the gforce route with the tremic. I waiting to hear back from liberty gears about the crash box. But they will be cryo treating everything. Im not sure the HP rating of my current aluminium DS..... but im sure ill find out. Out back ill have a carbon rebuilt 8.8 with shafts and i got a bunch of gear combos 308 327 355 373 410.

I was planning on a coyote swap in ol'ladys jeep, but after pulling the motor we discovered the frame was beyond shot. So we bought her one of those new turbo focus's as a project, being that i financed her new car we have a little more cash for my project.


That's all fine and all that your throwing expensive stuff into the motor.

You need to list displacement, compression, heads, cams and intake and fuel of said engine and we can give you a boost level and power level that could be achieved.

I take it your just looking for a dyno number at this point? Obviosuly this kind of build wont be very streetable and if its a drag setup, then all of this is a big waste of time since you will already be spooled and leaving the line in boost.


I know of two $100k+ 3v shop cars that were in the 1300hp + range. Only one of which I have seen a dyno number with a 13xx number for and iirc it was twin turbo setup on a undisclosed 3v build in a fox. The other is grudge racer so no posting of that kind of info.

I know of about a dozen 3v setups that made it to the 1000-1200hp range with a turbo setup. Only 4-5 of which weren't big shop sponsored cars and 2 of them I personally know and they ran the same twin 62mm turbo kit. First was a 5.3 big bore stroker with forged crank, oliver rods 9.4 compression It put down a hair over a 1000rwhp at 23psi on 93 pump. Same kit went to a different car and trapped in the 160mph+ range on a 302 big bore with 10ish compression and e98 was around 25psi. Based on the trap speed would estimate it around 1200hp. Was a track car though not a dyno car. Both cars broke before being able to even think to push anymore power. First on lower boost setting on the street from a tune hiccup and the second after a season of passes, in which fully studded heads wouldn't stay on and convertor and trans were giving up. So all of this plays into what you can realisticly hope to accomplish.
 
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Heaten m90

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I feel as though its necessary to rev the engine out to 8-9k RPM, and i also don't know whats preventing me from doing so. I love the idea of a single turbo for the obvious weight characteristic and twins are great for making power. Ive seen so many twin/singal turbo high hp mustangs get walked by small turbo imports on the street, the amount of time it takes the large reciprocating Mass to accelerate within a large turbo seems like the draw back as well not having the exaust gas volume to begin the slow climb. Its almost as though the it takes a long while to get in the window, and you're only in it a fraction of a second. Maybe single turbo plus nitrous is the best route...... can you expand on the bi turbo you had mentioned. In the past I've never gone against your recommendations, and followed through with them. But i really wanted this one to work.
 

Wes06

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MMR eh?
Sounds like the perfect shit cake to throw your candles on when it let's go :)
 

Heaten m90

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I want to keep the motor square, ported heads oversized exaust valves, cams will be cut once i have all my final data. 10:1 motor as of now with the manley/ diamond combo. But im not opposed to taking that up to 11:1. Id2000's. Either the dorman intake or the Ford racing but i dont think the my ford racing one will handle the boost. I like the idea of a composite manifold though to combat heat soaking. And i could care less about the dyno numbers. I just want this thing to move and i dont want and automatic.
 

Heaten m90

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I've heard bad things about mmr, but their website claims 3000hp rated rods and pistons.......
 

JeremyH

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I feel as though its necessary to rev the engine out to 8-9k RPM, and i also don't know whats preventing me from doing so. I love the idea of a single turbo for the obvious weight characteristic and twins are great for making power. Ive seen so many twin/singal turbo high hp mustangs get walked by small turbo imports on the street, the amount of time it takes the large reciprocating Mass to accelerate within a large turbo seems like the draw back as well not having the exaust gas volume to begin the slow climb. Its almost as though the it takes a long while to get in the window, and you're only in it a fraction of a second. Maybe single turbo plus nitrous is the best route...... can you expand on the bi turbo you had mentioned. In the past I've never gone against your recommendations, and followed through with them. But i really wanted this one to work.


First you would need a stand alone pcm setup for that kind of rpm,let alone the fact that head/combo itself is not capable of it, around 7800 tops with headwork cams and intake to support is what your looking at and that considering you can make power there. You just wont be able to get to that kind of piston speed with the mod motor geometry. I rev to around 6800 rpms, there are plenty of faster 3v setups that don't rev past 6200-6500. No point if your already past your peak power number.

A car getting walked on the street is simply a power to weight ratio difference in the vehicles mixed with things like tire and trans and driver. Both cars will be in their optimal rpm range while operating at wot. I have walked cars on my low base boost settings that were both lighter or had more power, also had cars with less power edge me out so anything can happen in these scenarios. 99% of time I drive around in the 10-12psi range 550-600hp I rarely ever need anymore than that to handle anything I run into on the street where I simply down shift and wind out a gear or two and I'm rocking a 4k lb paper weight while in my vert. lol

A bi turbo or sequential turbo setup has a small turbo and a larger turbo sometime on a common bank or one on each they just don't feed each other they both have there own turbine exhaust and both feed the motor intake. Otherwise its similar and once at a certain boost level where the smaller turbo becomes inefficient its bypassed and all the exhaust starts feeding the larger turbo. In many oem applications it has mechanical or electronic valve to block the smaller bypassed turbo so only the larger one is feeding the motor. On the bmw deisel bi turbo setup we have done turbo upgrades for for example, we use an 11 blade compressor on the smaller turbo which favors low end flow and acceleration and the larger turbo will have a traditional 6-7 blade compressor which favors overall peak flow.

http://www.sandhperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/11889479_1251654488196158_5964154948904539694_n.jpg
 

Wes06

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MMR can claim whatever they want.

But their customer service and horrible parts many have witnessed around here. I wouldn't use them to supply parts for your push mower
 

702GT

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I feel as though its necessary to rev the engine out to 8-9k RPM, and i also don't know whats preventing me from doing so. I love the idea of a single turbo for the obvious weight characteristic and twins are great for making power. Ive seen so many twin/singal turbo high hp mustangs get walked by small turbo imports on the street, the amount of time it takes the large reciprocating Mass to accelerate within a large turbo seems like the draw back as well not having the exaust gas volume to begin the slow climb. Its almost as though the it takes a long while to get in the window, and you're only in it a fraction of a second. Maybe single turbo plus nitrous is the best route...... can you expand on the bi turbo you had mentioned. In the past I've never gone against your recommendations, and followed through with them. But i really wanted this one to work.

The 3v head design is about the only thing preventing you from reving out to 8-9k/rpm. The physical restriction of air flow through the valve porting just makes it a waste. As well as the hardware involved. I can't remember if it's on youtube, but years ago someone posted a video of a high speed cam footage of a 3v head with aftermarket springs at 7k/rpm. You can see in the up-close shot of the valve springs they're bucking like a SOB. A similar video of a 4v at 7k/rpm shows the valve springs are much more stable, not doing the side/side jiggle like the 3v springs. People around here have had head problems (forgive the pun) making a lot less power with a lot less boost than what you're after.

The old S&H twin turbo kit was about as badass a turbo kit there ever was for the 3v. Mounted at the manifolds facing rear, it was just pure sickness. I don't know how Jeremy & Co. aren't millionaires off that kit. If I could have donated half a kidney for a kit, I would have done it.
 

Heaten m90

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MMR can claim whatever they want.

But their customer service and horrible parts many have witnessed around here. I wouldn't use them to supply parts for your push mower

That killed me lmao!!!!
 

JeremyH

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I want to keep the motor square, ported heads oversized exaust valves, cams will be cut once i have all my final data. 10:1 motor as of now with the manley/ diamond combo. But im not opposed to taking that up to 11:1. Id2000's. Either the dorman intake or the Ford racing but i dont think the my ford racing one will handle the boost. I like the idea of a composite manifold though to combat heat soaking. And i could care less about the dyno numbers. I just want this thing to move and i dont want and automatic.


So your realisticly in the 20-25psi 1000hp range with that kind of setup depending on fuel. You will need race fuel or e85 etc with that kind of compression at those numbers and boost levels as well.

I have had 5 different turbo setups on my car the only one that was truly "lazy" was the twin billet 62s, I put 1400hp worth of turbo on my car when I was only running 770rwhp. Just too much turbo for a 4.6 at 16psi. Was a damn freight train from 4500rpm up though. But I drive a stick street car so I'm putting a single back on. My plans for the 72mm twin scroll with spool valve I have is around 800rwhp at 18-20psi that's about the most I want to squeeze out of my manley/diamond 9:1 compression combo. And don't get me wrong I will rarely run that higher power number on the street. If I need it its just a button push away though.

To maximize low end you want as small of a turbo or turbos that will still support the max power level you want, this maximizes acceleration and efficiency. Billet compressor design , bearing and ar selection also play heavily into this.
 

JeremyH

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The old S&H twin turbo kit was about as badass a turbo kit there ever was for the 3v. Mounted at the manifolds facing rear, it was just pure sickness. I don't know how Jeremy & Co. aren't millionaires off that kit. If I could have donated half a kidney for a kit, I would have done it.


Haha because it was more of a hobby. Designed a kit from the ground up with top shelf components and all the stuff I felt kits should have but didn't and still trying to make it affordable was tough. Was cool to see it come together and perform though. Was a struggle not to take a loss of every kit we sold though my fab and labor costs alone were just about the same cost of another common kit out there lol



Does this kit not exist anymore?

They exist just not making them anymore. I see a few go up for sale second hand from time to time but they usually sell really fast.
We only made about 10 twin kits and 20 or so single kits so that's how rare they are lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWDqeyzKjkQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AqW_CFkc-M
 
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NUTCASE

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The more I read this, the more I like the idea of a PD to artificially induce load on a single turbo.

With the cost of the builds in question here, purchasing a PD blower ain't shit.
 

Heaten m90

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Very impressive, the turbo location is perfect alot better then other kits that hang it off thr front end. Ive never herd of an oil less turbo though.... a 1.1 60 foot is wicked.
 

JeremyH

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Yeah whole concept came about due to the water cooled only turbos. They debuted in 2011 been using them ever since. Currently on the gen2 with a zirk fitting for greasing the bearings. A lot of freedom to mount it where you want and not need an oil feed or drain.
 

Sky Render

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The more I read this, the more I like the idea of a PD to artificially induce load on a single turbo.

With the cost of the builds in question here, purchasing a PD blower ain't shit.

Volvo currently has one or two twin-charged engines.

I also read about a twin-turbo with blower GT500 in 5.0 Magazine back before that publication went Tango Uniform.
 

Heaten m90

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Ford racing is the only manufacturer that offers an aftermarket head correct?
 

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